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Forum LockedHidden Armenians in Turkey

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ArmenianSurvival View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hidden Armenians in Turkey
    Posted: 03-May-2007 at 17:29
     There are people in Turkey who do not know of their Armenian roots from as recently as 2 generations ago. There are also those who are well aware, but are forced to keep this identity hidden from the general population because of persecution and oppression. Please watch this video and share your thoughts/knowledge...

http://www.hairenik.com/HairenikTV/HA_TV_Clip60.htm



     My father's aunt in Istanbul used to travel to Anatolia and adopt these "hidden" Armenians and raise them as Armenians. She taught them the language, traditions, etc. I believe there should be 'missionaries' like my father's aunt who can teach the Armenian language and traditions to people who want to get in touch with their roots, but I doubt this type of work would sit well with the general population and the atmosphere in Turkey. I have also spoken to Armenians who have recently traveled to eastern Turkey, and said they came into contact with many people who claimed to be Armenian, but said they presented themselves as Turkish or Kurdish Muslims to everyone else.

     Note: This is not a discussion on the blacklisted Armenian Genocide, I know it is mentioned in the program, but just stray away from that discussion. This is about the modern-day dilemma of the people who willingly want to return to their roots, but for several factors, are unable to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 18:01
Why are they hidden? there are around 100,000 or something Armenians in Turkiye. Also some say Hemshins are muslim Armenian? but they are offended if somebody calls them Armenian, maybe its a religous divide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 18:16
     Officially there are around 70,000 Armenians in Turkey, although there might be 100,000 because of the undocumented workers who go to Turkey from Armenia.

     Hamshenis are Muslim Armenians, I know people who have visited their villages, and their language (the eastern branch of it at least) is a dialect of Armenian. The Hamshens of Turkey and Caucasia (I think there are around 50-100,000 Hamshens in Russian Caucasia, and a few in Kazakhstan), have had meetings and recent relations with the Armenian diaspora. Probably discussing about how to better incorporate them into the worldwide Armenian community. In 2005 or 2006, they started printing Korans in the Armenian language in Yerevan.


Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Why are they hidden?


     Watch the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 18:48
I can't watch the videoDisapprove. I have some friends whose grandmothers or grandfathers were of Armenian origin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 18:48
Here is the original source:

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/FRANCE-24-Reports/Reporters-FRANCE-24.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 13:37
I also heard that there are to many Turks and Kurds who actually has Armenian roots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 13:42
Accualy The Kurds living in north eastern Anatolia are mostly of armenian origin who adopted Islam. It's common fact omongst the locals

I'm not suprised
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 15:44
I remember a research done about this subject and there was a researcher who claimed there where more then 500 000 "hidden" armenians in Turkey, he made a intervieuw with an old (hidden) Armenian woman and she told they "converted" to Islam just because of the pression of being called "gavur", etc cant remember not much about it.

The officially known "hidden" armenians are the Hemsheni's (hamshen?).

Armeniansurvival, does your aunt also teach some nationalistic propaganda? Language and culture is fine but going further is dangerous and you'll know it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 15:52
what would be an example of nationalistic propaganda?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 16:09
Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

what would be an example of nationalistic propaganda?
begins with ararat mountan and ends with greater armenia...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 16:27
They exist also stories about hidden Christians (Probably Greeks) that they preferred  to stay in Turkey and they wasn't exchanged .Same stories exist about hidden Muslims (Probably Turks)(not those in W.T) that preferred to stay in Greece but no official researches , just stories.  

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 16:36
Antioxos is correct, this stuff mostly stems from nationalist propoganda, hidden muslims, jews, christians...classic tales. I even was told by this spanish guy once that there are secret muslims jews who speak secret arabic and are the reason for some problems in the country. The pseodu-Jew stories are probobly the most famous world-wide.
 
There probobly are some more private communities but most are generally exaggerated.


Edited by Bulldog - 04-May-2007 at 16:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 16:59
Originally posted by DayI DayI wrote:

Armeniansurvival, does your aunt also teach some nationalistic propaganda? Language and culture is fine but going further is dangerous and you'll know it...


     Actually it wasn't her that raised the kids, I misphrased it... she would get children from families like that (at the parents' permission of course), and she would give the children to Armenian families so they raise them in their houses in Istanbul and send them to Armenian schools. I don't know what you would consider nationalist propaganda, Turks and Armenians have different views on this and to varying degrees.... some Turks consider sober Armenian history as 'nationalist propaganda', so I don't know where you draw the line yourself. They don't make them into enemies of Turkey, if thats what you mean, most of them either go back home when they are adults or they settle down in Istanbul.

     The main goal of these Armenian foster families is to teach the kids their real identity, and how to keep in touch with it, so it does not get lost. I think we need more people doing this work in Turkey, because most of these people who want to openly be Armenian don't know the language, traditions, and whoever is Christian cannot practice their religion. You saw the video, they are so oppressed that many times they don't dare tell their children they are really Armenian or Christian. It has to be pretty bad for it to reach that stage.

     What frightened me most was that the attitude towards Armenians in east Anatolia is not much different than the accounts I've read from WWI. They tried to force that family off their land just for having an Armenian ancestor, imagine if they spoke Armenian and openly practiced Christianity. East Anatolia is the place where the Armenian people originated from and lived for millenia, built various states and civilizations there, and they cannot even claim to be Armenian there anymore, much less practice the culture. In fact, they pretended to be Muslim Turks and Kurds, and they were still oppressed.

     But one really high note was that the Turkish court gave that family their land that was confiscated in 1915. Thats a good precedent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:00
Hemsins were armenians, They are not armenians still..
 
I can say same for hidden armenians(?). They can immigrate to west(bigger cities) and noone will ever care their armenianship..But they prefer to stay "hidden"..
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:10
Originally posted by DayI DayI wrote:

begins with ararat mountan and ends with greater armenia


     Well, Ararat has been part of our culture since the beginning (at least 6th century B.C.), and Greater Armenia is the name of the various states which occupied the Armenian highland. Thats just sober history.


Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

Hemsins were armenians, They are not armenians still..
 
I can say same for hidden armenians(?). They can immigrate to west(bigger cities) and noone will ever care their armenianship..But they prefer to stay "hidden"..


     Hamshenis have been Muslims for generations, some of them even before WWI. Who says they aren't Armenians... thats what they call themselves. The fact that everyone knows Hamshenis as Muslim Armenians should already tell you something.

     And what do you mean 'they prefer to stay hidden'? They are hidden because no one will accept them... People don't willingly isolate themselves from their country.


Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 04-May-2007 at 17:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:19
And they dont call themself as Armenians. Majority of them call themself as hemsin and Turk. Not armenians.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:32
     The Hamsheni language is an archaic form of Armenian. They do not call themselves Turks. Hamshens, even those who live in Russia, Georgia and Abkhazia and who are Apostolic Christians, still call themselves Hamsheni Armenians. Hamsheni is an ethnic identity, a subgroup of Armenians.

     Plus, Hamsheni representatives have had meetings with the Armenian diaspora from many countries. If they considered themselves Turks they wouldn't be holding meetings with our diaspora....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:43
My friend, I am talking from first hand contact..
 
Besure not even 1% people at Turkey aware that, there are 100.000 Muslim armenian in Turkey..(do These muslim armenians aware that they are armenians?)
 
dont you think, If these muslim armenians  call themself as armenian, All Turkey will know them.
 
By the way,
I have no idea about georgian or russian hemsins. I am talking about Turkey hemsins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:46
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

dont you think, If these muslim armenians  call themself as armenian, All Turkey will know them


     Thats exactly why they WOULDN'T call themselves Armenians, but rather, Hamshenis. They see how Armenians get treated.


Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

I have no idea about georgian or russian hemsins. I am talking about Turkey hemsins.


     Representatives of Turkey's Hamshenis were also present in the diaspora meetings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 17:56
Thats exactly why they WOULDN'T call themselves Armenians, but rather, Hamshenis. They see how Armenians get treated.
 
I am sure my hemsin friends dont hide it. Ermm Infact, the ones I met actively resist their armenianship..
 
Representatives of Turkey's Hamshenis were also present in the diaspora meetings
 
sorry, who are these representatives? Of course you can find some minority who call themself as armenians. Will you say these are representatives of Turkey hemsins???
 
Also, They call themself as hemşinli(not hemşin.) because They are from hemşin.(It is name of a town also.) I call myself as Trabzonlu because I am from trabzon..
 
 
 
 
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