History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedHeirs of Byzantium

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1011121314>
Poll Question: Who do you believe are the true heirs of Byzantium?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [13.04%]
37 [40.22%]
2 [2.17%]
1 [1.09%]
14 [15.22%]
0 [0.00%]
26 [28.26%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

Author
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 23:17
Quote Spartukus
Identity? That is very relative my friend.
 
The identity of being identified as a "Turk", the region being renamed by Europeans "Turchia" during that era is not relative or subjective.
 
Quote Spartukus
Religion? When the Seljuk Turks reached Bukhara were samanists.
 
Their approach to Islam may not have been "orthodox" but they were muslim even though the average folks still were mostly Tengrist just saying they were muslim.
 
Quote Spartukus
  As fas as language is concerned, languages change over time.
 
It does but Turkish came to Anatolia with them, it didn't just appear one day.
 
Quote Spartuku
Concerning culture, do not forget Persian, Arab and European influence, as well as the influence of local non-Turkish people of Asia Minor.
 
Did I claim otherwise? I just stated that along with all these there is also Central Asian Turkic culture.
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 4496
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 23:28
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
The identity of being identified as a "Turk", the region being renamed by Europeans "Turchia" during that era is not relative or subjective.


Yes, but what does being a Turk meant then, what does being a Turk in the Ottoman Empire meant and what does being a Turk in the early 20th century meant? Because in all three cases, you have important differences.
 
Quote =Bulldog]
 
Their approach to Islam may not have been "orthodox" but they were muslim even though the average folks still were mostly Tengrist just saying they were muslim.


Yes, but they adopted Islam after Bukhara.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
 
It does but Turkish came to Anatolia with them, it didn't just appear one day.


Yes, but ain't the same as then.
 

Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:


 
Did I claim otherwise? I just stated that along with all these there is also Central Asian Turkic culture.
 


If you take under consideration the centuries of all these influences i mentioned, Central Asian Turkic feature is not that important .
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 00:45
Quote Spartukus
Yes, but what does being a Turk meant then, what does being a Turk in the Ottoman Empire meant and what does being a Turk in the early 20th century meant?
 
You can come up with one thousand and one theories if you really wanted too, however, the only thing we can be sure of is they were known as "Turks" then and they're known as "Turks" now.
 
Did being an Ancient Greek mean the same as being a modern day Greek?
 
Quote Spartukus
If you take under consideration the centuries of all these influences i mentioned, Central Asian Turkic feature is not that important .
.
 
Not important to who? to you? It doesn't matter what you subjectively consider important or not, there are Central Asian Turkic features in the todays culture in Turkey this is all I was saying.
 
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 01:49
Lets stick to the topic please. 

Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 4496
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 08:14
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
You can come up with one thousand and one theories if you really wanted too, however, the only thing we can be sure of is they were known as "Turks" then and they're known as "Turks" now.


Maybe, but the meaning is not the same. And the meaning is what it counts.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:


Did being an Ancient Greek mean the same as being a modern day Greek?


Irrelevant.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
Not important to who? to you? It doesn't matter what you subjectively consider important or not, there are Central Asian Turkic features in the todays culture in Turkey this is all I was saying.
 


Not only to me. To many. You have modern names and, especially, surnames, you have the Gregorian calendar, you have a religion whose origin is Semitic, you have sedentary presence and culture for centuries, you have a multi-ethnic environment and, consequently, influences. You have a Westernized education. If you were talking about the Kurds, hell, it would be more probable.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Sarmata View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 261
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 09:15
Im kind of suprised Russia didn't make the poll
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 13:51
Quote Spartukus
Maybe, but the meaning is not the same. And the meaning is what it counts.
 
The meaning depends on person to person, its subjective, I was referring to the identity, the identifier ie being identified as a Turk.
 

Quote Spartukus
 You have modern names and,
 
Modern names? which names are "modern"... 
 
Quote Spartukus
 you have a religion whose origin is Semitic,
 
Your missing the point, the lands of Turkey became majority muslim due to the Turks, this was bought with them from Central Asia.
 
Quote Spartukus
 you have sedentary presence and culture for centuries,
 
There were sedentary Turks before the Seljuks set a foot in Anatolia, look at the Kara-Khanids for example.
 
Quote Spartukus
 you have a multi-ethnic environment and, consequently, influences.
 
Your just repeating what's already been stated, nobody said anything to the contrary, I just said there is Central Asian Turkic cultural influences aswell. Whether they be musical ie Ozan, Ashik, Bakshy culture folk literature & legends ie Koroglu, Nasreddin Hodja, Dede Korkud, culinary ie Boreks, Choreks, Manti's, the arts and crafts ie knotted carpet weaving, Ebru etc etc  
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 14:15
Originally posted by Sarmata Sarmata wrote:

Im kind of suprised Russia didn't make the poll


What has Russia to do with Byzantium, aside from a few religious emigrees and one royal marriage?

Yes a similar Orthodox religion, but then again so do many others. Religion is not a qualifying factor for them being "heirs of Byzantium."

Back to Top
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 566
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 14:36
Imperial Russia always saw itself as a continuation of the empire.
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 16:28
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

Imperial Russia always saw itself as a continuation of the empire.


Saw and being are two completely different things...Embarrassed...as I said Russia claims a lot of things...

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 16:41
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


Yes a similar Orthodox religion, but then again so do many others. Religion is not a qualifying factor for them being "heirs of Byzantium."
 
Russia was in fact very similar to Byzantium i.e. it was a powerful Eurasian, Orthodox Empire. Not to say that the classical civilization was borrowed by Russia from there.
 
At least one can say that Russia was in a sense "spiritual heir" of Byzantium.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 16:49
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


Yes a similar Orthodox religion, but then again so do many others. Religion is not a qualifying factor for them being "heirs of Byzantium."
 
Russia was in fact very similar to Byzantium i.e. it was a powerful Eurasian, Orthodox Empire. Not to say that the classical civilization was borrowed by Russia from there.
 
At least one can say that Russia was in a sense "spiritual heir" of Byzantium.


Again that is not an immediate heir.

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 17:39
I don't think there can be immediate heirs at all. Only indirect ones.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 17:50
Compared to Russia a remote state that shared a religious background the Balkan states and the Ottomans that were directly involved and affected by this Empire or society they definetly are direct heirs. Russia shares a religious past, but then by definition they also do with Jerusalem and the patriarchate of Antioch and so forth. By that definition the US is the heir of the Romans seeing as the US has a republican government, a similar open enviroment for citizenship, etc... Yes Russia has similarities, but being an heir just because of a few similarities is rather circumstantial. 

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 18:04
First of all. Russia has been the only really powerful and independent Christian Orthodox state in the world after the fall of Constantinopole. And Russian Patriarch enjoyed a complite independence compare to any other Orthodox Patriarch, who all were more or less under foreign control.
Secondly, Orthodox Church is in the core of the Byzantine identity. It was in fact a nation created by the Orthodox Christianity. If you take this element out, there can't be immediate inheritance already.
Of course, Ottoman Turkey was a heir in some geopolitical sense. But by no means it was the heir of Byzantium in all entirety.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 4496
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 18:22
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:


 
The meaning depends on person to person, its subjective, I was referring to the identity, the identifier ie being identified as a Turk.
 


There is the meaning a person gives to himself but there is also the meaning that people as collective communities give to themselves.And since we talk about pre-modern times, where the meaning of a person as part of a society is non-existent, people defied themselves, mainly, by collective standards.

Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Modern names? which names are "modern"...



It's sth natural. Do you expect that all names used in the 20th century being the same as those used in the 11th? Hell no.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
Your missing the point, the lands of Turkey became majority muslim due to the Turks, this was bought with them from Central Asia.


I did not said the contrary. Yet, Islam is not an originally steppe religion, but a desert religion.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
There were sedentary Turks before the Seljuks set a foot in Anatolia, look at the Kara-Khanids for example.



Yet, it was the Seljuks that created a state, not the Khara-Khanids.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:


Your just repeating what's already been stated, nobody said anything to the contrary, I just said there is Central Asian Turkic cultural influences aswell.


Yes but they are not that important.

Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:



Nasreddin Hodja,


Nasreddin Hodja....a Central Asian Turkic cultural influence? In which source do you base that?????
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 18:28
A short wiki article, presenting the basic Russian approach to the problem.
 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 21:16
Quote Spartukus
There is the meaning a person gives to himself but there is also the meaning that people as collective communities give to themselves.
 
However you wish to put it, they were identified as Turks in the 11th Century and their identified as Turks today.
 
Quote Spartukus
It's sth natural. Do you expect that all names used in the 20th century being the same as those used in the 11th? Hell no.
 
Alparslan, Ertugrul, Osman, Orhan, Mehmet, Ali etc etc the majority of names used are not too different to 11th century names.
 
Quote Spartukus
Yet, it was the Seljuks that created a state, not the Khara-Khanids.
 
Kara-Khanids were a powerful and influential Turko-muslim civillisation who also created a state.
Quote Spartukus
Nasreddin Hodja....a Central Asian Turkic cultural influence? In which source do you base that?????
 
I used it to show Anaolian Turkic influences in Central Asia, its just an example, there are cases of the opposite which would include Ahmad Yasavi, Haci Bektashi, Navai etc
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 4496
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 22:43
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
However you wish to put it, they were identified as Turks in the 11th Century and their identified as Turks today.


Yes, but the meaning is not the same. Calling sb a Turk in the Ottoman empire was sth derogatory, while in the kemalist period was elevated to the status of total (racial) superiority.

Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Alparslan, Ertugrul, Osman, Orhan, Mehmet, Ali etc etc the majority of names used are not too different to 11th century names.



What about Bülent,Devlet? Plus, you need to take under heavy consideration that after the Kemalists came to power, medieval names of Turkic or Mongol origin became very popular, due to the focus of the regime towards the pre-Ottoman past.

 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
Kara-Khanids were a powerful and influential Turko-muslim civillisation who also created a state.


Maybe, but not in Asia Minor.




Edited by Spartakus - 09-Dec-2008 at 22:45
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 23:18
No continuity, It can't be:
 
Image:Aya%20sofya.jpg
 
Haiga Sophia: Bizantine.
 
 
Suleymani Mosque: Ottoman.
 
No continuity? At least there was some in architecture.


Edited by pinguin - 09-Dec-2008 at 23:22
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1011121314>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.