History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedHeirs of Byzantium

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 14>
Poll Question: Who do you believe are the true heirs of Byzantium?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [13.04%]
37 [40.22%]
2 [2.17%]
1 [1.09%]
14 [15.22%]
0 [0.00%]
26 [28.26%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

Author
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Heirs of Byzantium
    Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 21:37
 Do You believe the nowadays Bulgarians to be the glorious descendants of the Eastern Rome altogether with their medieval  Bulgarian empires?Approve
Please feel free to cast your vote and comment on the subject! Wink
The Baptism of Constantine


Edited by londoner_gb - 27-Oct-2007 at 21:40
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 22:10

I am aware that to some the question may seem shocking at first...Especially to those used to associate the Eastern Rome as the symbol of the Antique civilisation and the Bulgarians as the late intruders in the area bringing the new feodal era with them.But was that really the case? Werent they both populated mainly by the autochtonous people/although both equally open for newcommers/?Some sluggish brain cells may need to be awakened...Wink

The Bulgarians routing the Byzantine forces at Bulgarophygon in 896. From the Madrid Skylitzes.

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 23:20
I suggest you to stop searching true heirs of known nations and start doing something so that peoplewill declare themsleves as truie heirs of londoner_gb Wink
.
Back to Top
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 00:10

To the rest of the world Byzantines were known mostly as "the Greeks",due to the official language in the empire,but the ethnic Greeks were minority there, mainly in the coastal towns, the bulk of the population was the thracian and thraco-related peoples in Asia minor,also Armenians,Georgians, Ilirians etc...The Greek element was further weakend after the Third crusade/1202-1204/ when the "Franks" cut out from the Empire the "craddle" of the Hellene people -Peloponese,  Attica and most of the islands, and kept it under their rule all the way till the fall of Byzantium under the Turks.Thrace was much more vital to the empire and in the struggle for its possession disputed by the Bulgarian empire both countries eventually exhausted themselves and became easy pray for Serbs and little later the Ottomans...Was the beautiful Thrace the ultimate cause for the fall of the Eastern civilisation under the "infidel"?!Or was it some other reason?Our discussion will shed some light on the matter!

Mehmet II enters the fallen city


Edited by londoner_gb - 22-Oct-2007 at 00:21
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
Athanasios View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 23-Jan-2007
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 547
Post Options Post Options   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 01:36
To the rest of the world Byzantines were known mostly as "the Greeks",due to the official language in the empire,but the ethnic Greeks were minority there, mainly in the coastal towns, the bulk of the population was the thracian and thraco-related peoples in Asia minor,also Armenians,Georgians, Ilirians etc...The Greek element was further weakend after the Third crusade/1202-1204/ when the "Franks" cut out from the Empire the "craddle" of the Hellene people -Peloponese,  Attica and most of the islands, and kept it under their rule all the way till the fall of Byzantium under the Turks.

simplifications...

Thrace was much more vital to the empire and in the struggle for its possession disputed by the Bulgarian empire both countries eventually exhausted themselves and became easy pray for Serbs and little later the Ottomans...

Oh, so when the bad guys gone , chaos became the dominant power in Balkans,eh?BANG!-You-are-Dead

Anyway, i had voted none of the above because if the Romans knew who would be their heirs would hang themselves bodily in the Ippodromos after blinding themselves as usually...
Byzantium's heir is the west world (directly and indirectly) intellectually speaking. I advise you not to continue a conversation of the type "who was more important than the other" or "who must consider himself as a purer heir" ...

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 03:23
I believe that Bulgarians are the glorious descendants of the ancient Martians who proudly roamed the Earth several millions years ago.
 
Bulgarians-Martians built Egyptian and Mayan pyramids, Borobudur temple in Indonesia and Angkor in Cambodia, they also erected the iron column of king Asoka in India and laid foundation for the Great Wall of China.
 
Francois Champollion lied when he claimed that he decoded ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, instead as was decisively proven by the famous professor l._g., the host of the famous show "Thracian telebubbie/teletubbie," those hieroglyphs just represent the local variation of the ancient Bulgarian language and mostly depict the glorious journey from Mars to Atlantis and the subsequent conquest of the planet Earth and the great war with dinosaurs.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Lord of Hut River Province Principality

Joined: 01-May-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5713
Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 04:37
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I believe that Bulgarians are the glorious descendants of the ancient Martians who proudly roamed the Earth several millions years ago.
 
Bulgarians-Martians built Egyptian and Mayan pyramids, Borobudur temple in Indonesia and Angkor in Cambodia, they also erected the iron column of king Asoka in India and laid foundation for the Great Wall of China.
 
Francois Champollion lied when he claimed that he decoded ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, instead as was decisively proven by the famous professor l._g., the host of the famous show "Thracian telebubbie/teletubbie," those hieroglyphs just represent the local variation of the ancient Bulgarian language and mostly depict the glorious journey from Mars to Atlantis and the subsequent conquest of the planet Earth and the great war with dinosaurs.


LOLClap
Clap
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2096
Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 05:19
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I believe that Bulgarians are the glorious descendants of the ancient Martians who proudly roamed the Earth several millions years ago.
 
Bulgarians-Martians built Egyptian and Mayan pyramids, Borobudur temple in Indonesia and Angkor in Cambodia, they also erected the iron column of king Asoka in India and laid foundation for the Great Wall of China.
 
Francois Champollion lied when he claimed that he decoded ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, instead as was decisively proven by the famous professor l._g., the host of the famous show "Thracian telebubbie/teletubbie," those hieroglyphs just represent the local variation of the ancient Bulgarian language and mostly depict the glorious journey from Mars to Atlantis and the subsequent conquest of the planet Earth and the great war with dinosaurs.
 
LOLLOLLOL
 
I agree with Constantine; this is precisely what this thread needed.
 
Clap
 
-Akolouthos
Back to Top
Sparten View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Totalitarian Iconoclast

Joined: 18-Mar-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5009
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 06:21
Its rather stupid to try to relate modern day political enetities to medieval or ancient empires. Even when their is a clear continuity the modern day state often has v different or varied ethos. For example modern Britain is very different from say Norman England, or India from the Mughal or Delhi sultanates.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
Back to Top
Knights View Drop Down
Webmaster
Webmaster
Avatar
AE Magazine Coordinator

Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3294
Post Options Post Options   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 07:16
What do you think...Post of the month, Sarmat? 

Back to Top
Ioan-Assen II View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 18-Oct-2007
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ioan-Assen II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 15:13
I think the heirs of Byzantium are mainly the Greeks (culturally). I dont think the Turks are, even though Constantinopol is in Turkey. Why? Because the culture, the tradition, the role of the church, everything, the drawings etc all is changed when the Otomans take the town. Whatever is saved, its thanks to the church.
Bulgaria is not direct heir of Byzantium, because we had an empire ourselves that was a glorious rival to Byzantium. For a very big time Bulgarian kings reigned over what is todays Bulgaria (and even much much more). However, I think we are indirectly heir of Byzantium culturaly. Our religious literature, our architecture, our state was very influenes by Byzantium, but under this cultural influence we created a Slavic culture of its own that influenced other slavic nations.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 08-May-2005
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1942
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 15:23
Originally posted by Sparten

Its rather stupid to try to relate modern day political enetities to medieval or ancient empires. Even when their is a clear continuity the modern day state often has v different or varied ethos. For example modern Britain is very different from say Norman England, or India from the Mughal or Delhi sultanates.
 
In a way, yes, yet there is nothing wrong with trying to research one's cultural heritage. The problem lies rather in the premise of this thread, because there is not one heir of Byzantium but a great many. All the cultures under the sway or influence of Byzantium were affected by it, and all of them; Greeks, Slavs, Turks, Arabs and so on, are the heirs of Byzantium.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8682
Post Options Post Options   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 16:12

Though I tend to agree in jest with Sarmat12 regarding the plausible Martian theory I will take a restrained stab at this question. After the fall of Constantinople the Byzantines kept their hold as Byzantine emperors while in exile well into Andreas Palaeologus' reign. Another self-proclaimed heir to Byzantium, other than those already mentioned, were the Russians. Ivan III married with a member of the Palaeologi thus claiming royalty into the throne of Constantinople. Moscow was called the 'Third Rome' and the new kings went by the title Tsar (ceasar) until the revolution.

The Ottomans were territorial heirs to Byzantium. They also maintained a few Byzantine institutions. Like the Byzantines before them, the Ottomans practiced a system in which the state had control over the clergy. Aside from Turkish, Persian and Arabic influences, Ottomans kept Constantinople as the capital of her empire.
 
 
Copyright © 2004 Seko
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2096
Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 17:46

On a serious note, didn't one of the last descendants of the Paleologoi sell his birthright to the Spanish monarchs while he was in exile after the fall of Constantinople? I guess this would give them a claim too, especially since the monarchy--though not the line--is still intact.

-Akolouthos

Back to Top
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 17:47
 Pity no one voted for the Bulgarian+Greek option..It proves our balkanic attitude and egotism..I was willing to share a bit of the heritage with you but...
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 17:59
Originally posted by Ioan-Assen II

I think the heirs of Byzantium are mainly the Greeks (culturally). I dont think the Turks are, even though Constantinopol is in Turkey. Why? Because the culture, the tradition, the role of the church, everything, the drawings etc all is changed when the Otomans take the town. Whatever is saved, its thanks to the church.
Bulgaria is not direct heir of Byzantium, because we had an empire ourselves that was a glorious rival to Byzantium. For a very big time Bulgarian kings reigned over what is todays Bulgaria (and even much much more). However, I think we are indirectly heir of Byzantium culturaly. Our religious literature, our architecture, our state was very influenes by Byzantium, but under this cultural influence we created a Slavic culture of its own that influenced other slavic nations.
What about the ethnic heritage Ioan assen?You support my vue that we are mainly Thracian descendants mixed with slavs/and a spice-up from many others/,which was also the case with Western Anatolia and the Balkanic lands that mostly stayed under Byzantine rule...
So lets analise this dualism!One people-Two Empires!What caused it?
What allowed the creation and persistence of the Bulgarian state?
Was it the unhappiness of the Balkanic Thracians with Byzantium not being able to defend them from the raids of many barbarian intruders?Was it the taxation?Was it the decay of the old slave based system ?Was it the religious conflict?I am open for your suggestions..Wink


Edited by londoner_gb - 22-Oct-2007 at 18:02
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2096
Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 18:56

Wow. The number who believe it was the Bulgarians really shot up. To what may we attribute this, I wonder. Wink

Londoner, this "one-people, two empires" nonsense is really just that: nonsense. If anything, at times the converse was true (that is to say, "one empire, two peoples"). And perhaps it is because I don't have a "balkanic" attitude, but I fail to see what you hope to accomplish by trying to establish an ethnic continuity between the Bulgarians and the ancient Thracians.
 
-Akolouthos
Back to Top
Evrenosgazi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 379
Post Options Post Options   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:16
I dont understand why we are talking the possibility of  bulgarians as the heirs of byzantium. Bulgarians are a different nation with different traditions. They even never had Constatinopolis. They are heirs of the early and late medieval bulgar states.  I think the best answer will be the greeks. But the armenians were also a important element for empire. Ottomans can be the other answer, but again with little possibility. 
Back to Top
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:21
Originally posted by Akolouthos

And perhaps it is because I don't have a "balkanic" attitude, but I fail to see what you hope to accomplish by trying to establish an ethnic continuity between the Bulgarians and the ancient Thracians.

 
-Akolouthos
Maybe i am just following our neighbours exampleWink
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
londoner_gb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 04-Oct-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196
Post Options Post Options   Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:33
Since this topic is a natural successor of the "Bulgarian origins" topic I will acquaint you with another medieval popular story about the origins of the Bulgarians.According to Teofilakt of Ochrid XIc who translated it " The Bulgarians were chased from their original homeland in Mysia/near Bursa/ by Alexander the Great, only to return in mighty force many, many Years later to conquer Moesia,Thrace Macedonia,and Dardania,Paeonia and Thessaly,all the lands to the vicinity of Constantinople until the reign of Basil II Macedon..."
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑ
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 14>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.