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Forum LockedHead Reseacher for Turkish Faction Needed

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Nestorian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Head Reseacher for Turkish Faction Needed
    Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 04:18
Hi, I'm a one of the developers for Medieval Total Realism, a mod for Medieval Total War 2.
 
Of course, the game is not out yet, but we're in the stage of research.
 
As this place is teeming with Turk-enthusiasts, I thought this would be the best place to ask.
 
Now, I know the "Turkish faction" is a generic term when there are in fact numerous Turkish states in the MTR time period, but we have no choice but to stick with a generic name. Perhaps "Turkish Sultanate" as a faction name?
 
We're looking for a team of researchers to research for a Turkish faction for MTR with a nominated head researcher.
 
As head researcher:
1) You will supervise and lead research activities concerning the Turks in the period 1054-1500's
2) Co-ordinate with skinners to produce Turkish military units
3) Co-ordinate with me to present information on Turks - culture, religion, miscellaneous...
4) Make sure Turks are represented correctly and accurately
 
PM me if ur interested.
 
Personally, I'm looking forward to information about famous Turkish architecture, as it is one of my favourite forms of architecture.
 
Regards, Nestorian.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 05:29
1) list of Turkic khanates, states or empires:

Turkic-Mongolian States

Turkic States in Eastern Europe




Famous Turkish architecture during Seljuki (1000 ad to 1300ad) period is here http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10569

Also you'd use "Turkish khanate" instead of "sultanate"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 05:57
I prefere like dayi said turkish khanates over turkish sultanate
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 06:25

my rationale for Sultanate because the Turks start with the Seljuk Sultanate and ends with the Ottoman Sultanate.

I'll give it a bit more time before I decide that no-one is interested.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 06:43
Originally posted by Nestorian

my rationale for Sultanate because the Turks start with the Seljuk Sultanate and ends with the Ottoman Sultanate.

I'll give it a bit more time before I decide that no-one is interested.

 
the turks start in the 6 century with the gokturks 11 century seljuks so your skipping 5 centuries of medievel Turk history.
 
the word sultanate is only used by the seljuks and ottomans. there are more then 16 khanats so you disclude 14 empires.
 
btw its not that i'm not interrested but I think I'm not.... lets just say I would be way over my head and i think the most people feel like this or not
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 07:37
Well initially the Turks were bought to the middle east in large numbers as protectorates of the Caliph of Baghdad, they were slaves at this period but as slaves they would not stay.
 
In one of the few times in history they amazingly managed to turn the tables where the slave instead began to own his master.
 
In the 875-905 the first major breakthrough in the middle east occured by the Turks, this was the Tullunogullu Dynasty or Tulunids as their known in the West and was a powerfull millitary ruling family who had a state all the way in Egypt.
 
 
They built one of the largest and oldest Mosque's, with hospital and gardens in Egypt and its still standing.
 
 
 
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 07:47
What occured next is that another similar state the IhsidOgullari in the middle east were founded. The Turks were rapidly growing in numbers, power and inlfluence in the middle east as they kept on being bought into the Empire by the Caliph who was protected by the Turks.
 
During the same period the same was happening around Iran, Afganistan and the Gaznivid Empire was founded by another Turk.
 
After all this came the Selcuk Turks, they aswell promised to protect the Caliph but would become rulers of the middle-east while Caliph would be a spiritual ruler.
 
Soon the huge influx of Turks meant they needed more land where they could have a more dominant influence and where there wasn't such a large population. In addition to this the idea of "Ghazi" was important to them and they embarked upon fighting the Byzantiums.
 
The critical battle was the battle of Malazkrit was an epic battle against the powerfull Byzantines and opened up Anatolia to Turkish settlement and rule.
 
 
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 07:51

After the break-up of the Great Selcuk Empire, there was the Selcuk of the Rum based in modern day Turkey with capitol at Alanya and Konya, this was also an Empire were the arts and culture flourished.

The Karamanogullu state was very important regarding the use of the Turkish language as becomming elevated to official status in all areas of state running affairs.
 
Also the Artukids, Zengids, KaraKoyunlu, Akkoyunlu states were powerfull states.
 
The Timurids entered Anatolia with the backing of the Turkish Bey's and ever since the Ottoman's realised that these were the backbone of the Empire and must be treated well in order for the state to function.
 
It was after all this that the Ottomans were to become a global super power on three continants and become Caliphate of the Islamic world.
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 10:47
MTR starts in the year 1054 and ends 1500;s, so I can only take into account the Seljuks and Ottomans.
 
Anyone interested in becoming a head researcher then?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 10:49
what about tatars
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 11:56

I'd love to play a Malazkirt, Sirpsindigi, conquest of Constantinople or some Crusader campaigns.

Here's somthin to attract woman players Big smile

Shagrat al-Durr

Sultan of Eqypt (died, 1259) ©1996-2006

womeninworldhistory.com

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Women who were "powers behind the throne" are always fascinating. But those who move out of the shadows to sit on the throne itself can be even more so. Shagrat al-Durr took upon herself the title of Sultan and regrouped the Egyptian army to take Damietta back from the Frankish Crusaders.

Why She Is An Historic Hero?

Her life links the last victories of the Crusaders to the transition to a new period and dynasty, the Mamluks (the powerful army made up of Turkish slaves and who eventually supplanted their masters). Want to find out why slaves could become so powerful?
During this new period, that of the Mamluks, Cairo was to become the center of power. The Mamluks kept their power for more than two centuries in Egypt and Syria.
It was the Egyptian Mamluk army who were the only institution that eventually stopped the Mongol drive, in their ambitions to conquer the entire Middle East.
Shagrat al-Durr is one of the very few women in Islamic history to ascend to the throne. Her melodramatic life illustrates the fact that an ambitious woman had to depend on the good will of men to be able to lead.
Shagrat's dismissal as Sultan by the Caliph of Baghdad reaffirmed the Islamic concept that the spiritual head and political head of a country must be one, and that such a position cannot properly belong to a woman.

Her Story

The time is 1250 A.D. The sultan of Egypt, Salih Ayyub has just died at the moment when the crusading armies of France are threatening Egypt. Salih Ayyub's wife is Shagrat al-Durr, who had been a slave of Turkoman origin.

In 1249, the French army under Louis IX, King of France landed at Damietta, at the mouth of the Nile River. Shagrat, acting as Salih's regent while he was away in Damascus, organized the defense of the realm.

Soon after Salih Ayyub returns, he dies. Shagrat, conceals the fact of his death by saying he is "sick" and having a servant be seen taking food to his tent. She thus is able to continue to lead in his name.

Turan, his son and her stepson, appears and Shagrat hands the reins of power over to him, finally announcing her husband's death. Still, Shagrat retains control, and a crushing defeat is rendered on the Crusaders at Damietta. The leaders of the army don't respect Turan; they want Shagrat, seeing her as a Turk, like themselves. They plot against Turan and have him murdered. On May 2, 1250, they put Shagrat al-Durr on the throne, thus beginning the Mamluk dynasty.

As sultan, Shagrat al-Durr has coins struck in name, and she is mentioned in weekly prayers in mosques. These two acts only can be done for the person who carries the title of sultan.

Peace is made with the Franks. Louis IX is ransomed and allowed to return home.

Egypt at this time is under the authority of the Caliphate at Baghdad. Baghdad does not approve of Shagrat. She is a woman, and women must not hold the title of ruler. The Caliph of Baghdad sends a message to the Egyptian amirs: "Since no man among you is worthy of being Sultan, I will bring you one." Shagrat is deeply humiliated, but she steps down after being Egypt's sultan for only two months.

A successful Mamluk soldier, Aibak, is appointed in her place. Shagrat al-Durr's moment of power, however, is not over. Either for love or political ambition, she manages to seduce Aibak. He marries her to legitimize Mamluk rule. Reports tell of their great love for one another.

With her experience at administration and leadership, for seven years Shagrat rather than Aibak really rules. An historian who lived at the time comments: "She dominated him, and he had nothing to say." Shagrat continues to sign the sultan's decrees, has coins struck in both their names, and dares to be addressed as Sultana.

Shagrat al-Durr is a jealous woman, and one who does not want to share power. When she married Aibak, she had him divorce his wife, with whom he had a son. In 1257, Aibak proposes to take another wife. In Shagrat's eyes this act is unthinkable. In a fit of jealousy, she plots his murder and carries it out when he is having a bath after a game of polo.

In desperation, Shagrat al-Durr tries to conceal the crime. But her past deeds come back to haunt her in the person of Aibak's former wife and his son, who now seek revenge. The army divides over those continuing to support Shagrat and those opposing her. Rioting breaks out, and Shagrat is cornered. Spurred on by Aibak's former wife, Shagrat is beaten to death by the slaves of the harem with their wooden clogs. Her half-naked body is thrown into the moat of the citadel.

Eventually, Shagrat al-Durr's bones are taken and placed in the mosque known today as the mosque of Shagrat al-Durr.

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IPB Image


Coins minted in Shagrat al-Durr's name
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
Fatima Mernissi, The Forgotten Queens of Islam, University of Minnesota Press, 1993
Charis Waddy, Women in Muslim History, Longman, 1980
Wiebke Walther, Woman in Islam, Abner Schram, Montclair, NJ, 1981

http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/heroine1.html

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The Great Queen who defeated the Crusaders, well all I can say is WHAT A WOMAN
 
Sultana Razia of Delhi (1236-1240)

The only woman ever to sit on the throne of Delhi, India, Razia's ancestors were from Moslems of Turkish descent who invaded India in 11th century. "Like other Moselm princesses, she was trained to lead armies and administer kingdoms if necessary." (p. 34) Contrary to custom, her father selected her, over her brothers, to be his successor. After her father's death, she was persuaded to step down from the throne in favor of her stepbrother Ruknuddin, who, like her brothers, continued to neglect the kingdom and live a pleasure filled life. Disgusted with Ruknuddin's rule, the people demanded that she become Sultana in 1236.

She established peace and order, encouraged trade, built roads, planted trees, dug wells, supported poets, painters, and musicians, constructed schools and libraries appeared in public without the veil, wore tunic and headdress of a man. State meetings were often open to the populace at-large. Yet, she made enemies when she tried to eliminate some of the discriminations against her Hindu subjects.

Jealous of her attention to one of her advisors, Jamal Uddin Yaqut (not of Turkish blood), her governor, Altunia, rebelled. Razia's troops were defeated, Jamal was killed in battle, Razia was captured and married to her conqueror in 1240. One of her brothers claimed the throne for himself, Razia and her new husband were defeated in battle where both died.

"Sultana Razia" by Lyn Reese in Herstory: Women Who Changed the World, Ruth Ashby and Deborah Gore Ohrn (eds.), Viking, 1995, p. 34-36

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http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/15women.html#delhi
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine

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Nestorian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 14:31
The campaign map only extends to the area between the Oxus and the Jaxartes river, and we're constrained by the number of playable factions we can fit in. So only a generic Turkish faction and other non-playable Turkish rebel factions like Patzinaks and Kipchaks.
 
The mod starts at 1054 as Toghrul Beg is approaching Baghdad to overthrow the Buwayids. This gives players the chance to conquer Baghdad, Mosul and Amida and gaining their soldiers experience before facing the Byzantines, the Mirdasids and the Fatimids. Or, the player can simply decide to attack Georgia, Tashir and the Shaddadids before attacking Byzantium through Armenia.
 
Players who are interested in other factions can partake in:
1) The Norman conquest of Sicily and Southern Italy with their enclave around Troia
2) The Norman conquest of England starting as a Duchy
3) The rise of the Almoravids (Al-Murabitun) and the chance to intervene in the chaos of the Taifa states of Al-Andalus
4) As the republic of Venice and develop a chain of port enclaves to dominate trade
5) As a Byzantine Emperor coping with the demoralised, poorly equipped army having to face Norman and Seljuk attacks on both fronts
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 04:59
 
We're hoping to do more Turkish concepts, but we just don't want to copy from Osprey 100% We'd like real Turkish historians to inform us from primary sources eg. writings, contemporary pictures.
 
Plus because the MTW2 engine allows variances, we can come up with variable designs for Turkish warriors.
 
As I said before, the game engine doesn't allow us to incoude every single Turkish Khaganate, Sultanate or Emirate, we therefore, have to be generalised unforunately. But the Seljuks and the Ottomans are the main Turkish Sultanates represented.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 05:16
Dont forget Tatars and Golden Horde! :)
DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 06:13
http://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghulamcavalry0rh.jpg

Here is a sample, this underlines our seriousness.

Suggestions are nice, but as I said before, we need a serious researcher.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 14:31
Shouldn't you wait until the original MTW2 is released at least?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 02:40
Well being the best player in the world at total war i feel i can contribute, Big smile
Turks should have the following units 
 
Heavy cavalry- Cataphracts armed with bow,sword, mace/axe and long lance
 
Light cavalry- Armed with Bow and sword -no or little armour but the best missle attack and mobility of any medieval unit.
 
Turkic Long range bows standing archers- A bow which uses sitting down the legs to push the bow and the arms to pull the string stunned the Crusaders with their long range.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 03:10
The reason why we're preparing research now is becayse we know CA will have fantasy units like in RTW and MTW. We're preparing an information database and infrastructure now so that by the time MTW2 comes out and the modders are ready, we can begin to modify it properly.
 
You should check out some of the concept art we have on Steppe Armies especially Mongols and Kipchaks at:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 03:14
Does anyone personally know Ismail Kemal Ciftcioglu?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 06:15

I don't know him personally, but I saw one of his works here in this forum.

Battle of Manzikert, 1071:



When I searched his name in Google, I found out that he is a member of an art forum.

The art forum that I am talking about...

Here is one of his other works which is about future of Istanbul:



Especially the sky is very impressive if you ask me.

I think he is talented in photography and visual art computer programs.

Edited by barish - 16-Jul-2006 at 06:20
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