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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Naimani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 01:07
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:


i completely agree. the youtube video had a lot of inacuracies. there is no evidence of turkic migration in the 4th century BC (2300 years ago). also, what is the historical evidence of those Hunnic tribes, i want to know the original hsitorical document, not a mdoern book as reference. also, what is your source that those Turkic tribes were Buddhist and built the Bamian statues? you called them "Hun Turkic Uyghurs", what exactly is that? the Uyghurs as a large tribal confederacy only existed much later and they did not migrate to Aghanistan.
Those weren't huge clans. They were small groups of nomads. I've been saying roughly 2300 years, it could be more or could be less, I haven't found out the exact date of the migration, but I will post as soon as I find out. They weren't Buddhists when they were in Central Asia, they converted to Buddhism in Bamiyan. I'm not saying Uyghurs migrated to Afghanistan. I'm saying Jaghuries share the same ancestors as the ancient Uyghur Turks.
 
The fact that you are saying there were no Altaic tribe migration out of the Steppes at around that time is wrong mate! What makes you be so sure? The books you read are just books, you or the writers of those books were not there observing to find out who exactly was migrating out of the vaste steppes at that time. They were small clans, so they weren't as important as the other big Altaic clans.
 
You are not alone, many think that there were no Hazaras in Afghanistan before the Great Khaan. I;m telling you, IT IS WRONG! ONLY THE NAME "HAZARA" DID NOT EXIST, BUT OUR TURKIC ANCESTORS DID EXIST!!! Hazaras have been living in Afghanistan long before the Great Mongol Empire. I don't want anyone to think I have something against my Mongol ancestor. My clan(Naiman) is a khalkh Mongol tribe, and I'm proud of it. Naimans were one of the clans that did not exist in Afghanistan before the Great Mongol Empire. These are the Hazaras who came with our Khaan during the Empire, and they make up the majority of Hazara population:
 
- Naiman
- Besud
- Borjigin Besud
- Bqara Baator
- Qul Bars
- Dai Kundi
- Dai Chupan
- Dai Mirdad
- Dai Fulat
- Dai Mirak
- Shek Ali
- Nekudari(came after the Mongol Empire)
- Tulai Khaan Hazaras
- Qora
- Quzi
- and other smaller ones
 
I'm not saying I'm a historian or anything like that, I just post what I know about my tribe and what I believe about our history only. But you guys have been in here for a long time, haven't you ever seen the part from the "Secret History of the Mongols" where is says "Mongol soldiers faced a great challenge from the local people of Bamiyan who looked like the invading Mongol warriors"? Doesn't that prove that there were already Altaic tribes in Central Afghanistan???
 
Thats the reason I always try to divide Hazara history into two stages:
1- Before the Great Mongol Empire
2- After the GME


Edited by Naimani - 11-Jan-2008 at 01:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 01:36

It proves they were Turkic people residing in Bamian, In the 9th century the Iranic Shers of Bamian ruled the valley.   Zunbils held Zabolistan, and Turk Shahis and Hindu Shahis ruled Kabul.  Furthermore we know that prior to Sebuktigin, the Ephtalites settled Turks into Afghanistan. 

Sir Olaf Caroe states (in his book the Pathans) a theory by another historian who believes the tribes of Paktia and Khost were in fact Turkmen before they became Pashtuns.  C.E. Bosworth hints at this theory as well and goes further that after the Ephtalite break up and Islamic invasion, the Oghuz and Khalaj were migrating as far as Bust in Iran and as far northeast as Badakhshan.
 
The Shers of Bamian were removed from power in the 10th century by Alptegin, a slave of the Samanids.  By the time the Khwarazm-Shah's were in power Turks were everywhere, but they ONLY became prevalent after the Huns.  Not 2300 years ago. 


Edited by Afghanan - 11-Jan-2008 at 01:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Naimani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 01:45
Did you even read my post Afghanan?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 02:11
Lets take a chapter at what happenned in Central Asia around the middle of the 2nd millenia:
 
V.M. Masson:
 
"In the middle of the second millenium B.C. a whole extensive area of Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and the lands along the Syr Darya as well as the lower reaches of the Amu Darya and Zerafshan, were occupied by tribes (Proto-Indo Europeans of the Syntashta & Andronovo culture of the Steppe interacting with Bronze Age settlements - J. Harmatta) at similar levels of cultural development."  
 
Source:  Decline of the Bronze Age Civilizations and Movement of the Tribes, The Emergence of the Indo-Iranians: The Indo-Iranian languages pg 348 HOC: Central Asia Volume I)
 
What this meant was a cultural decline in the established settlements and rise of the Indo-Iranians from the steppe.  They left a clear archaeological pattern in Afghanistan during the end of the Bronze Age in Vakhsh at Bactria, Tulkhar burial pits in the Beshkent valley, and Margiana.
 
The end of that chapter concludes  that the process of Indo-European migration started at the end of the 3rd millenia to the first half of the 2nd millenia, the spread of the Indo-Iranians became more prevalent around this time and they were established throughout Northern and Eastern Afghanistan.
 
Source:  B.A. Litvinsky and L.T.  P'yankova - Pastoral tribes of the Bronze Age in the Oxus Valley (Bactria).  History of Civilizations: Central Asia, Volume I, pg 393.
 
-
 
Again no links to Turkics.  You were not off by a century or so, you were off by a few thousand years.  If you want pictures of archaeological evidence, I can provide them to you, as well as photos and diagrams of Stone/Metal tools, as well as Pottery.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 02:15
Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

Did you even read my post Afghanan?
 
I did read your post, but you can't just assume that the people that they referred to in Bamian (the Turkics who migrated there a few centuries before) were the original inhabitants of the country. 
 
We know that the entire region at 2300 years ago was settled and occupied by Indo-Iranians up until the Huns and Turks invaded after the Kushan empire went into Decline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 22:42
Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

We know that the entire region at 2300 years ago was settled and occupied by Indo-Iranians up until the Huns and Turks invaded after the Kushan empire went into Decline.


exactly. 2300 years ago (300BC) Afghanistan was inhabited by Bactrians. then we have the hellenistic kingdoms and only then we have Saka invasions, followed by the Tokharians who establish the Kushan empire. now we reached 100 AD already, thats a discrepancy of at least 400 years, so less than 2000 years ago. no one denies there were turkic tribes before Chinggis Qa'an, but the date you give is too early.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 21:27
Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

Lets take a chapter at what happenned in Central Asia around the middle of the 2nd millenia:
 
V.M. Masson:
 
"In the middle of the second millenium B.C. a whole extensive area of Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and the lands along the Syr Darya as well as the lower reaches of the Amu Darya and Zerafshan, were occupied by tribes (Proto-Indo Europeans of the Syntashta & Andronovo culture of the Steppe interacting with Bronze Age settlements - J. Harmatta) at similar levels of cultural development."  
 
Source:  Decline of the Bronze Age Civilizations and Movement of the Tribes, The Emergence of the Indo-Iranians: The Indo-Iranian languages pg 348 HOC: Central Asia Volume I)
 
What this meant was a cultural decline in the established settlements and rise of the Indo-Iranians from the steppe.  They left a clear archaeological pattern in Afghanistan during the end of the Bronze Age in Vakhsh at Bactria, Tulkhar burial pits in the Beshkent valley, and Margiana.
 
The end of that chapter concludes  that the process of Indo-European migration started at the end of the 3rd millenia to the first half of the 2nd millenia, the spread of the Indo-Iranians became more prevalent around this time and they were established throughout Northern and Eastern Afghanistan.
 
Source:  B.A. Litvinsky and L.T.  P'yankova - Pastoral tribes of the Bronze Age in the Oxus Valley (Bactria).  History of Civilizations: Central Asia, Volume I, pg 393.
 
 
Afganan, if we quote someone's conlcution as the basis for our argument, then there's really nothing here to debate. It might be better if you can summerize the facts on which  they drew their conclusion, otherwise you can't convince noone.
 
Quote   
 
Again no links to Turkics.  You were not off by a century or so, you were off by a few thousand years.  If you want pictures of archaeological evidence, I can provide them to you, as well as photos and diagrams of Stone/Metal tools, as well as Pottery.
 
 
I'm afraid you can't tell the difference between Turkic and Indoaryan groups from pictures of archeological evidence. Turkic people were not  none-Caucasian, we also have plenty of historical and archeological facts.   Xiongnu (Hun) (Proto Turkic) had  the same culture as the Rouchi (Tohars) and Sai (Sak), so cultural evidence doesn't help here either. The only evidence might be linguistical, but the language was not that stable. Hazaras speak Persian now, why shouldn't this happen in the early history, where we had influential Persian Empires?
 
 
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazarabacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 19:41
Yo dude! What are you talking about????
LOL Any body could say they anything as long as they are mixed! Only 25% of all Hazara's are Descendant of Changiz Khan I would know cuz I am a Direct Descendant not his soldiers descendent's! Also only the 25% of Hazara's are the like the 1 of the direct descendant of Changiz Khan! But not all Hazara's are Descendant of Changiz Khan cuz if they were they wouldn't have been there to fight against him In Bamyan!! How can someone's descendant fight him! LOLBig%20smile wouldn't his descendant come after him, Like his grandsons and his great great grandson!
This theory of Hazara's being Descendant of Changiz khan was made up by Britain when they were making deals with the Pashtun's and there leader Amir Abdur Rhman Khan!
Also Globel Geno project only test the Hazara people in Quetta! not even all of them barely 5% of them I read that It doesn't say anything about Hazara's being descendant of Changiz khan and also wiki things they are fake any body can write anything and post it there!
If Historians can't find the Origin of the Hazara's then how can a Person that writes articals caN?
Next time when search try to search deeper and forget about wiki!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:26
Hazarabacha, you post has been hidden. If you still haven't done so please make yourself familiar with AE Code of Conduct
 
 
You're here to share your knowledge with the forum members. Not to desseminate hate. Consider this as a warning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazarabacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:33
Hazara's aren't descendant of Nor Aledander the Great or Changiz Khan! We have history far greater then any other Ethnic group of Afghanistan! But what our mistake was that we didn't record our history from the beginning and now people try to connect us to any other race that has a lose end!
People claim that Hazara's are Descendant of Changiz Khan while the only People that had enough balls to Fight Changiz Khan in Bamyan was the Hazara's!
Hazara's were in Afghanistan before the Aryan, and indo greek! Also people claim that Hazara's are mixture of Tukic and Mongol while they don't have any prove!
The origin of Hazara's are unknown all the Source found of gotten by historians about Hazara's are either second hand or translated in the Process there is alot of Mistakes made!
The same Way the Smart Pashtun's who are educated claim to be Descendant of Aryan's and the uneducated one's claim to be descendant of Lost jew tribes there origin is also unknown but there is no doubt that Hazara's were there before them also some people believe that Pashtun's are descendant of Islamic Soldiers who were trying to spread Islam across the middle east! Also if you pay attention most of them do look like Arab and have the facial structure of the Arabs!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazarabacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:36
in which comment did i discriminate hate?
Oh then the other guy calling my people thief isn't discrimination?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 21:01
Originally posted by Hazarabacha Hazarabacha wrote:

Hazara's aren't descendant of Nor Aledander the Great or Changiz Khan! We have history far greater then any other Ethnic group of Afghanistan! But what our mistake was that we didn't record our history from the beginning and now people try to connect us to any other race that has a lose end!
People claim that Hazara's are Descendant of Changiz Khan while the only People that had enough balls to Fight Changiz Khan in Bamyan was the Hazara's!
Hazara's were in Afghanistan before the Aryan, and indo greek! Also people claim that Hazara's are mixture of Tukic and Mongol while they don't have any prove!
The origin of Hazara's are unknown all the Source found of gotten by historians about Hazara's are either second hand or translated in the Process there is alot of Mistakes made!
The same Way the Smart Pashtun's who are educated claim to be Descendant of Aryan's and the uneducated one's claim to be descendant of Lost jew tribes there origin is also unknown but there is no doubt that Hazara's were there before them also some people believe that Pashtun's are descendant of Islamic Soldiers who were trying to spread Islam across the middle east! Also if you pay attention most of them do look like Arab and have the facial structure of the Arabs!
 
Using your own analogy against you, if Hazaras resemble Mongolians, they MUST be Mongolian?  Again no proof or basis that Hazaras (The word itself isnt even that old) lived before the P.I.E. invasions, please show some evidence.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 21:06
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

Lets take a chapter at what happenned in Central Asia around the middle of the 2nd millenia:
 
V.M. Masson:
 
"In the middle of the second millenium B.C. a whole extensive area of Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and the lands along the Syr Darya as well as the lower reaches of the Amu Darya and Zerafshan, were occupied by tribes (Proto-Indo Europeans of the Syntashta & Andronovo culture of the Steppe interacting with Bronze Age settlements - J. Harmatta) at similar levels of cultural development."  
 
Source:  Decline of the Bronze Age Civilizations and Movement of the Tribes, The Emergence of the Indo-Iranians: The Indo-Iranian languages pg 348 HOC: Central Asia Volume I)
 
What this meant was a cultural decline in the established settlements and rise of the Indo-Iranians from the steppe.  They left a clear archaeological pattern in Afghanistan during the end of the Bronze Age in Vakhsh at Bactria, Tulkhar burial pits in the Beshkent valley, and Margiana.
 
The end of that chapter concludes  that the process of Indo-European migration started at the end of the 3rd millenia to the first half of the 2nd millenia, the spread of the Indo-Iranians became more prevalent around this time and they were established throughout Northern and Eastern Afghanistan.
 
Source:  B.A. Litvinsky and L.T.  P'yankova - Pastoral tribes of the Bronze Age in the Oxus Valley (Bactria).  History of Civilizations: Central Asia, Volume I, pg 393.
 
 
Afganan, if we quote someone's conlcution as the basis for our argument, then there's really nothing here to debate. It might be better if you can summerize the facts on which  they drew their conclusion, otherwise you can't convince noone.
 
Quote   
 
Again no links to Turkics.  You were not off by a century or so, you were off by a few thousand years.  If you want pictures of archaeological evidence, I can provide them to you, as well as photos and diagrams of Stone/Metal tools, as well as Pottery.
 
 
I'm afraid you can't tell the difference between Turkic and Indoaryan groups from pictures of archeological evidence. Turkic people were not  none-Caucasian, we also have plenty of historical and archeological facts.   Xiongnu (Hun) (Proto Turkic) had  the same culture as the Rouchi (Tohars) and Sai (Sak), so cultural evidence doesn't help here either. The only evidence might be linguistical, but the language was not that stable. Hazaras speak Persian now, why shouldn't this happen in the early history, where we had influential Persian Empires?
 
 
Actually archaeological evidence is similar to burial grounds, jewelry, and pottery found all across the Central Asian steppe and well west into Eurasia.  If we are to go by Linguistic evidence, the Saka language has many Iranic words, and they even worshiped Iranic Gods like Ormuzhd (Ahura Mazda).   If you need genetic evidence, look no further than the Genographic project which proves that R1a1 (The Indo-Iranian Y chromosome marker) is found a lot in Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Eastern side of the Iranian plataeu and Northwestern India, and parts of Himalayas and the Pamirs.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 08:03
Don't bother marra, Hazarabacha is nishta.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 17:01

Is there any relation between the presently destroyed and hopefully to be restored Buddhas (located on Hazara territory) and the origin of the Hazaras? 

But then, the Hazaras are Shia Muslims, is there any relation between their sect and their origins?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 18:15
The Buddha statues were built during the Ephtalite Period in Afghanistan, who ironically enough, in the beginnings of their invasion, hated Buddhism. 
 
When the Ephtalites were defeated by a joint Sassanian-Turk assault, The Ephtalites scattered across Afghanistan into Pakistan/India, Iran, and the Central Asian steppe. 
 
WHen Chenghiz Khan came, the area was under a Turkic-Iranian leadership, and the inhabitants either fled or were massacred.  There is no doubt some remnants of the original people remain in the blood of Hazaras, but that would also be the case for Tajiks, and even Pashtuns.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Naimani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 02:00
Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

But then, the Hazaras are Shia Muslims, is there any relation between their sect and their origins?


In Hazara case, religion doesn't play any role in their origin. We have a village in Hazarajat called Shash-Par, its pretty small. Shash-Par people are Sayed-Arabs who believe their are children of Shia-Imams from Arabistan. Thats about it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Naimani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 02:05
Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

There is no doubt some remnants of the original people remain in the blood of Hazaras, but that would also be the case for Tajiks, and even Pashtuns. 


Chingis Khan was a Borjigin. And there are thousands and thousands of them in Besud, Hazarajat.

In Asia 1/10 person is genetically linked to Mongols lol very naughty empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 02:46
Naimani, please give a link for the picture you posted. Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 20:10

Naimani,

Thanks for the information regarding the Hazara.  The Hazara seem to be better described as a confederation of people that share a common culture, language etc. rather than as a specific ethnic group.  The ancient Huns were similar type of confederation that included both Asiatic and Caucasian people.  


Edited by Cryptic - 05-Jun-2008 at 20:12
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