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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:43

Mongols, according to history, when first arrived to Afghanistan, faced a group of Mongoloids who'd already been there. That's what Bulldog explains.



Edited by gok_toruk - 14-Nov-2006 at 13:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 20:14
Turk Shahi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turk_shahi

The Hinaya Buddhist tradition made envoys into Central Asia and some Turkic tribes converted to Buddhism, the Turk Shahi's adopted it as early as 3 century BCE.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 02:58
 
 
"The Parthian dynasty fell about 75 AD to another horde from Central Asia. Kushans, a Turkish type people known as Yueh-Chih in China moved from Central Asia to Bactria, where they stayed for a century. Around 75 AD, one of the tribe Kushan under the leadership of Kujula Kadphises gained control of Gandhara and other part of present Pakistan"
 
 
Kushan Turkish type people. Can Kushan and Hazara be related here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 13:38

Well, Yue-Chihs were Caucaid. As far as I know, Yue-Chis were later called Tokharians. They're the so-called Iranian population of Central Asia.  And if Kushans are somehow related to them, if they're not their descendants, well then Hazaras, being Asiatic has got nothing to do with them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 19:51

gok-turk my dear turkmen brother:

why does race matters so much? why does people's look matters so much? What happened to you in turkmenistan???

someone discriminated you or what???

you seem want to convince people that this whole world is mongoloid...

*Laugh*

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 13:14
Hi Great Kushan,

Good to know that:-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 07:43
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

Well, Yue-Chihs were Caucaid. As far as I know, Yue-Chis were later called Tokharians. They're the so-called Iranian population of Central Asia. And if Kushans are somehow related to them, if they're not their descendants, well then Hazaras, being Asiatic has got nothing to do with them.


    

Take a look at other discussions about Kushans. It has been repeated many times. Yuechi were not Iranian stock.

If current day Hazaras are livinig in the lands of the ancient Kushans, there is no reason to deny their relationship with these locals, while you can't provide any historical proof that these locals were forced to move or slayed. Furthermore, Current day Hazaras are not totally mongoloid.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 09:55
Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 04:41
Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.



Well, if so, where did they migrate from?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 19:05

 

Hazara people lived in feudalism system until one hundred years ago. Hazara people has long history of living in mud built houses in villages. Hazara people has long history of agriculture and tradations.

I have not read anymore to say Hazara people were nomadic.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 06:59

'Dated Kushana Inscriptions, Satya Shrava'

'The Armies of Bactria, Valerii.P.Nikonorov'
 
The name Kushan is derived from the term Guishang, used in Chinese historical writings to describe one branch of the nomadic people, called Yuezhi or Yuechi. These nomads who were of Indo-European stock, roamed the northwestern China but during 176-160 BC, they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu
 
There is evidence both from the mummies and Chinese writings that many of them had blonde or red hair and blue eyes, characteristics also found in present-day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan and Central Asia, due to the populations' high genetic diversity. This suggests the possibility that they were part of an early migration of speakers of Eastern Irannic Languages.
 
By the way, a normal Hazara is a good example of the Northern Mongoloid population. Ofcourse, for instance, they grew more facial hair than Central Asians, but they're, to a very high degree and uniformly Mongoloid.


Edited by gok_toruk - 30-Nov-2006 at 07:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 14:28
Kushans were Buddhists whose admistrative writings were in Prakrit and who translated religious texts into Sanskrit.  Nobody knows for sure what language they spoke in Central Asia. Some of their coins had Greek inscriptions and pics of Greek gods.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 01:21
Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.


Maziar, can we say Iranians are not the decendants of the early locals of Iran before Aryan migration? if a group of people migrate into a place they definately mix with the locals, if both parts are quite significant, we can find clear genetic and cultural elements from both parts (in the case of Hazara), then how can we exclude any of them from their ancestral line?



    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 07:00
Man we've had enough of your childish complaints, you, Hazaras, and the rest of your comrades, Tajiks, Uzbeks and all put all the blmae on us Pashtuns for wahetever situation you guys are in right now, Grow up, read history, Afghanistan had never been damaged that severely as it was by the ancestors of the Hazara people [Mongols], you guys shouldn't even complain, our cities were razed to grounds by your people, we don't say nothing, but every forum i go to, i see the BS by you guys about us Pashtuns, as if we are the only devils and wrong doers in Afghanistan.

By the way, to clear your confusion, Kushans werent' Hazara, the Buddhas weren't built by Hazara, they were built by the Kushans, an Aryan Tribe that assimilated with the rest of the Aryanic Tribes, collectively known as Pashtuns or ethnic Afghans.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 17:49
Originally posted by AFG-PaShTuN AFG-PaShTuN wrote:


By the way, to clear your confusion, Kushans werent' Hazara, the Buddhas weren't built by Hazara, they were built by the Kushans, an Aryan Tribe that assimilated with the rest of the Aryanic Tribes, collectively known as Pashtuns or ethnic Afghans.

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Who are Hazaras then? Did the Mongol troups come with their wives to this land, and killed all the locals?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:16
I would just like to clarify.  The Buddha statues were not built during the reign of the Kushans, but the Ephtalites..who were ironically anti-Buddhists initially.
 
The Mongols killed every living being in Bamian, including, dogs and cats and lined their heads up in mounds.
 
The Hazaras are said to be descendants of the Mongol armies, not Genghis Khan.  The Mongol armies were made up of many different Turkic tribes as well as Mongols.  Bamian was setup as a garrison town for the Mongols and when the Mongols were eventually amalgamated with the rest of Persia and Central Asia, the Mongol hordes remained in Bamian, where they eventually converted to Shiite Islam.
 
Genetic studies have proven that they have Mongolian and Turkic ancestry.  Hazaras today are prevalent in every city in Afghanistan and have intermarried with every ethnic group.  My mother's grandmother infact, was a Hazara from Ghazni.
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:35
Here is a quick summary of events from the Kushans to the
Muslim conquest.
 
As for the Kushans, they are remnants of the Greater Yue-Chih, or the Tocharians.  They were not Mongols, but Eastern Iranian speaking nomads from China who were pushed out of their ancestral homes by the Huns.  They were followed by other Scythian nomads who were also fleeing the Huns and eventually swept over the Semi  Hellenic city states in Afghanistan and made their empire there.  They converted to Buddhism and were responsible for many of the caves that are in "Gharchistan" or Bamian. 
 
They were defeated and swept over the Kitharites (Huns) and then finally by the Ephtalite Huns.  The Ephtalite Huns have a mysterious past but are said to be remnants of the Tocharians and had cultural traditions similar to the Massagatae Saka.   They ruled Afghanistan and eventually converted to Buddhism and Hinduism.  Hinduism eventually won out in Eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar and Taxila, but Buddhism was still strong in Bamian where the Buddhist monk went to visit and noticed the Giant Buddha Statues.
 
The Ephtalites had various wars with the Sassanian Persians and Turks, some of which they won, some of which they lost, but eventually they were overrun by a joint Turk-Sassanian attack and were dispersed. 
 
--
 
Most of the information is from History of Central Asia, compied by UNESCO and historical departments from various universites across Central Asia, South Asia, and Europe.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 22:47
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:

Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

what Confused

do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?
 
I have a very clear evidence that the Bamiyan budddah has been destroyed little by little in the last 200 years since Pashtun come to power in Afghanistan. before 200 years it was a complete buddah body statue.
 
^I thought everyone knew that.
 
I'm a Naiman Hazara, therefore I'm a Hazara too. I think we are more Mongoloid than Turkic now. Before the Great Mongol Empire, our ancestors were more Turks than Mongols in Hazarstan regions. But it was after the Mongol Empire when we became known as the 'Hazaras'. You guys know that the Mongol Empire was divided into four states. Hazaras are from the Chaghatai and Ilkhanates of Afghanistan and Iran.
 
Hazara acestors lived in Central Afghanistan for more than 2000 years. Kushans are also our Turkic ancestors. The reason why some people say that they were Indo-European is because they had many races in their army and government, they even had black looking people possibly Indians. But the high ranked Kushans were Kushan Turks who built the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
 
The Turanian armies kept increasing our numbers. Specially during and after the Great Mongolian Empire Hazara population became larger and larger. When our Mongol ancestors completely lost power, the defeted soldiers from Iran, Iraq and other cities returned to Hazarstan/Hazarajat.
 
An interesting fact is that some of our Hazara sub-clans are still called by their old names. For example Naiman, Besud and etc...Today if you go in Mongolia or Kazakhistan you can find many communities (tribes) who have the same names, but they are separated by small communities everywhere in Mongolia and Kazakhsiatn. Here are only some of the Kahlkh-Mongol tribes that exist in Mongolia:
 
1.Borjigon
2.Besud
3.Jalair
4.Hatagin
5.Olkhonud
6.Harnut
7.eljigin
8.bayaud
9.gorlos
10.darhad
11.Sharnud
12.Uriankhan
13.Chinos
14.Onkhod
15.Mangud
16.Torguud
17.Khereid
18.NAIMAN
19.Merged
20.Khibchag
21.SARTUUL
22.Tangud
23.Bashigad
24.Khirgis
25.Khasag
26.Uigar
27.Kharchin
28.Uuld
29.Ujeed
30.Jongoor
31.Khotogoid
32.Avga
33.Tugchin
34.Guchid
35.Khorchin
36.Khitad
38.Asud
39.Baatud
40.Barnud
41.Khuuchid
42.Khalbagad
43.Khangad
44.Jarangiinkhan
45.Togoruutan
46.Khar’d
47.Khorkhoi nudten
48.Buurluud
49.Khavchig
50.Bulagachid
51.Gozuul
52.Uzuun
53.Echeed
54.Khavkhchin
55.Orovgod
56.Tavnag
57.Khaakhar
57.Khunguud
58.Burged
59.Khuitserleg
60.Chutsuut
61.Ulanguud
62.Ezen
63.Undgaa
64.Gahan
65.Aksakal
67.Zuun shuvuuchin
68.Zaaruud
69.Dalandaganad
70.Tsagaan zel
71.Khar zel
72.Khariad
73.Daar’tan
74.Barchuul
75.Gerchuud
76.Baachuud
77.Buuchuud
78.Khuluud
79.Basigid
80.Tsookhor
81.Khiitluud
82.Gal
83.Motoi
84.Tele
85.Sood
86.Mankhilag
87.Khamnigan
88.Taijiud
89.Tsakhar
90.Soloon
91.Khoid
92.barga
93.Tsoros
94.Talas
95.Baarin
96.Alag aduun
97.Saljud
98.Uvashi
99.Uneged
100.Asan(esen)
101.Uuhan
102.uush
103.Tsoor
104.Jalaid
105.Zaisanguud
106.Zurchid
107.Sunid
108.Tatar
109.Tuuhai
110.Usun
111.khalkha
112.khandgai
113.khangin
114.Khiad
115.Khoton
116.khurlad
117.Tsagaan
118.Nirun
119.durved
120.baatar
121.Zelme
122.Tuved
123.Tavuud
124.Khoshuud
125.barlas
126.Urad
127.yamaat
 
As you can see there are Naimans and Besuds still in Mongolia. But in Hazarajat/Hazarstan areas today we also have Turkomens which were called Oghuz Turks in the ancient times. Also we have 'Jaghuries' who are the biggest the most ancient Hazara sub-clan. They were mainly Uyghur Turks, but after Oltan Khaan their name changed to 'Jaghuri'. They were good fighters, hard workers and also good horse riders. The name 'Jaghuri' is derived from the word 'Chau Quri' or 'Jau Quri' which was a position given to a direct ancestor of Chinggis Khaan who had to lead 100 Mongol soldiers, during Oltan Khaan. That's when they became known as Jaghuri people.
 
If we look  back in the past, we don't see many differences between Mongols and Turks. They had same believes and culture. But Turks today specially Turks in Turkey, because of their geographical location, they tend to be more European and Middle-Eastern. We have Turks and Mongols in our Hazara tribe, we don't see any differences. I think the reason is because we give more value to the name 'Hazara' more than the smaller names such as jaghuri, Besud, Naiman, Turkoman and etc... 
 
If you look at the any ancient sources, you cannot find the name 'Hazara' before the Mongol Empire. The reason is because they became known as the 'Hazara' during and after the Empire. Before that they were called buy different names. My point is that the people who are called Hazara today have more than 2000 years of history in Central Afghanistan. We are the Mongols and the ancient Turks of Afghanistan.


Edited by Naimani - 09-Jul-2007 at 23:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 20:26
Any link for the list? The list is comprised of Turkic and Mongol tribes, in fact most of them seems to be Turkic. Some of the tribes mentioned in the list are listed with Turkmen or Uzbek, currently we can find in Afghanistan. Here are some of them but there might be more:

Jalair                 Jalair
Hatagin              Qataghan
eljigin                 Alchin
bayaud              Baymaut
Onkhod             Ongut
Khereid             Kerait
NAIMAN            Naiman           
Merged             Merket
Uigar                 Uighur
Khirgis              Qirghiz
Khasag              Qazaq
Kharchin           Qarqin
Khibchag           qipchaq
Ujeed               Jeed
Khitad              Khitai
Bulagachid        bolaghichi
Uzuun               Uishun
Echeed             Jeed
Khuluud           Khalaut
Tele                  Telew
Baarin              Bakhrin
Saljud               Chiljiut
uush                 Uz
Tatar                Tatar
Tuuhai              Tumai
Usun                Yuishun
khurlad             Gurlat
barlas               Barlas
Urad                    Uirat
yamaat             Yamood



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