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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hazara and Pan-Turk
    Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 20:39
 
Hi to all Turk and Turko-mongol brotheres and sisters,
 
I am a proud Hazara from Hazaristan in central Afghanistan. Hazara are great peoples, they are brave, generous, talented and honest.
 
I beleive Hazara are from Uyghur Turk heritage, though Hazara are comonly known Gengis khan descendents by Pashtun and British propaganda. of course its true there are Mongol influence in Hazara but it does not mean that Hazara presense in Afghanistan started from 13 century onwards.
 
Most likely Hazara are the desecendents of Kushan empire. Kushan empire which ruled from 1 AD to 5 century in present day Afghanistan, parts of central Asia and northern Pakistan and India. Kushan people originally migrated from present day Uyghur regions in western china to present day Afghanistan.
 
Kushan empire declined in 5 to 6 centuries after invasions from west by Persian Sassanids and from east by Indian Gupta empire.
 
 
From  5 AD century onwards Hazara came under Persian empires influence. Sassanids ruled the regions of Hazara and Afghanistan until arrival of Islam. When the Arab conquest ended in Afghanistan, powerful Turkic islamic empires such as Ghaznavids and Ghurids arose to power from heart land of Hazara people, these empires which ruled Persia  as well, thus Persian language and culture played important rule in Turkic empires, like Moghul Turk empire in India. Hazara likely learnt Persian as second language but over time Persian become their first language.
Click to view full size image
 
By the time Gengis khan arrived in Afghanistan in 13 century, Afghanistan, Persia and central Asia was ruled by Khwarezm empire. Khwarezm was also a Turkic peoples empire.
 
Hazara during Gengis khan and mongol empire most likely played an important rule because Hazara looked Mongloid like Mongols and most importantly spoke Persian, For example imagine if Mongol took control of Iran and Afghanistan today which Persian language is very important and Hazara speak it. if Mongol and Hazara make alliance in controling the territory how much  Mongol would be succssful in ruling the empire. Similar things may have happend during Ghengis khan thus alot of influences you can find in Hazara people today.
 
Hazara region and central Asia was ruled by Gengis khan and his descendents from 13  to 18 century like Tamerlane and Babur.
 
In the last 200 years, specially in the last one hundred years Hazara has been unimginably oppressed and suppressed. In 1880s, Pashtun king with help of British money and weapons succeded in massacring 62% of Hazara population and taking 60% of their land and still occupy the land to this day. The Taliban Pashtun also wanted  to completly eliminate Hazara identity and history. Hazara are proud and will never be shaken by
anyone.
 
Turk and Turko-Mongloid brothers it is time to be aware of your Hazara brother. although Hazara speak Hazaragi a dialict of Persian. but we can learn Turkic language whenever we want to, My Uncle and his family live in Tahskent today all my cousons can speak Uzbeki now, i wish all Hazara could speak Turkic languages in the near future. Hazara future remain with Turk because who they are, Turk! our flag should be included in Turkic people flags always.
 
 
For more information please visit these Hazara websits,Smile
Click to view full size image
 
Click to view full size image
Click to view full size image
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 00:06

I might be mistaken , but I thought that the Kushan empire was build by a group of Indo-European people related to Tocharians. How can Hazara people be descendants of an Indo-European people? 

 
 
 
 


Edited by omshanti - 09-Nov-2006 at 00:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 00:30
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:

I might be mistaken , but I thought that the Kushan empire was build by a group of Indo-European people related to Tocharians. How can Hazara people be descendants of an Indo-European people? 

 
 
 
Indo-Eurpean or non Eurpean, Kushan people originated from present Uyghur regions of China. The Kushan people looked Mongoloid.
 
Can you guess why the Baminan buddah's face shaved by Pashtuns and destroyed completly by Taliban Pashtun in 2001. Because Buddah face was mongloid and similar to Hazara people. Pashtun has done anything to kill Hazara identity in more than one hundred years.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 01:09
what Confused

do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 02:42
Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

what Confused

do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?
 
I have a very clear evidence that the Bamiyan budddah has been destroyed little by little in the last 200 years since Pashtun come to power in Afghanistan. before 200 years it was a complete buddah body statue.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 06:48
SelamAleykum, welcome Kushan brother to AE!
 
I think this was due to Islamic reasons and not due to the statues having Mongoliod faces.
 
P.S
I like the picture below the best, so cute Smile
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:

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Edited by OSMANLI - 09-Nov-2006 at 06:51

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 08:00
Hazaras
Hazara children.
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Hazara children.
Main article: Hazara

Historically, the Hazara seem to have Turkic-Mongolian origins, but with some Caucasoid admixture from surrounding groups. Linguistically though the Hazara speak Persian, but their variant is interspersed with more Mongolian words, but this is also the case with many Turkic languages such as Uzbek. It may simply be the case that the Hazara are of Uyghur Turkic origin as many Turks accompanied the Mongol armies or arrived in the region long before the Mongols. It is however commonly believed by many Afghans that the Hazara are descendants of Genghis Khan's army, which marched into the area during the 12th century. Proponents of this view hold that many of the Mongol soldiers and their family members settled in the area and remained there after the Mongol empire dissolved in the 13th century, converting to Islam and adopting local customs. The theory regarding a more Turkic origin for the Hazara has equal validity and the relatively small number of actual Mongols in comparison to Turks makes it more likely that the Hazara are descendants of Turkic invaders who were Persianized over time. Unlike most Afghans the Hazara are Shia, which has often set them apart from their neighbors.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 09:32
http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm

this is a biased source...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 11:26
Ok . First of all I know that there are many biased and nationalistic posts and topics in the All empires and I usually ignore them , however since  I have already  made the mistake of  posting once  in this topic  I have to keep going.
I have to say that I do not especially dislike or like Hazara people and am completely neutral towards them, but I am a supporter of accurate and objective history.
So here it goes.
The faces of the great buddhas were unrecognizable for many centuries because of natural decay and also because of many cases of human destruction . Gengiz -khan himself pointed  cannon fires towards them. No body actually knows whether the buddhas looked caucasoid or mongoloid.
 
I do not see any reason for the British to lie and make a fake tale about the time of the arrival of Hazara people in the region. The time of the arrival of Hazara people  does not seem to make any difference for the British since they were already there for centuries when the British came.
 
Great Kushan mentioned that the Hazara people are likely to be  the decscendants of  the kushan empire in his first post , but  in his/her later post which was quoted from Wikipedia there is absolutely no mention of the Kushan empire as the origin of Hazara people. I agree that the people who built the Kushan Empire came from the place which is inhabited by the uyghur people in modern time , but this does not prove anything. In fact it is known that the Kushan people formed the basis of Pashton ethnogenesis alongside the Hephthalites.
 
These are only my opinions based on the things I have read here and there so I am not pushing anything as an absolute fact here . Corrections are very welcome.
 
I think the picture of the two children holding hands is lovely too, and Great Kushan please do not take any thing that I wrote badly , From your name it is obvious that you really care for the Kushan-Hazara connection and I do not feel good to write something that denies it ,but we have to try to be as objective as possible towards history. I am not trying to be rude or write something against you. It is just my opinion after I read the topic.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 17:18
Hazars are not I.E. they only speak Persian. They are Turkic, and it is interesting to see blond and blue eyes people with mongolian look.
I know many Hazars from Iran, I found them very hard working and honest peopel.They are nobler people not mixed with the others.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 18:02
Originally posted by OSMANLI OSMANLI wrote:

SelamAleykum, welcome Kushan brother to AE!
 
I think this was due to Islamic reasons and not due to the statues having Mongoliod faces.
 
P.S
I like the picture below the best, so cute Smile
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:

Click to view full size image
 
 
 
 
Do you think when Pashtuns decided to destroy historic statues, if asked why, they certainly wont say we want to kill Hazara identity and history.
Of course they would make some kind of relegious excuses.
Do you know about Taliban? were they even compatible to Islamic idealogieas.
 
There are historic statues almost in every islamic countries. They are carefully preserved and their people are proud of their heritage. Afghanistan different story.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 18:32
To Omnashti,
 
Quote
"I do not see any reason for the British to lie and make a fake tale about the time of the arrival of Hazara people in the region. The time of the arrival of Hazara people  does not seem to make any difference for the British since they were already there for centuries when the British came."
 
Did you the Pashtun King's money and weapon where come from, who massacred 62% of Hazara population. from The British.
Apart from that I have seen almost all British journalists and historic books refering Hazaras to Genghis khan descendents.
 
"Abdur Rahman Khan (1844 [citation needed] - October 1, 1901), Emir of Afghanistan, was the third son of Afzul Khan, who was the eldest son of Dost Mahommed Khan, who had established the Barakzai's family dynasty in Afghanistan. Abdur Rehman Khan was considered a strong ruler who re-established the writ of the Afghan government in Kabul after the disarray that followed the second Anglo-Afghan war. His rule is also remembered for his savagery and bloody suppression of revolts, specially for massacring 60% population of the Hazara, Nuristani ethnic groups.[1]"
 
"The amir received an annual subsidy from the British government of 18.5 lakh (1.85 million) rupees. He was allowed to import munitions of war."
 
 
 
 
 
 Quote from omshanti
"Great Kushan mentioned that the Hazara people are likely to be  the decscendants of  the kushan empire in his first post , but  in his/her later post which was quoted from Wikipedia there is absolutely no mention of the Kushan empire as the origin of Hazara people. "
 
"It is commonly believed that the Hazara are descendants of the army of Genghis Khan, which marched into the area in the 12th century, but there are also beliefs holding Hazaras as descendents of the Koshanis[citation needed], the ancient dwellers of Afghanistan famous for constructing the Buddhas of Bamyan; or Hazaras as people of Turkic origin."
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:04
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:


To Omnashti,

 

Quote

"I do not see any reason for the British to lie and make a fake tale about the time of the arrival of Hazara people in the region. The time of the arrival of Hazara people  does not seem to make any difference for the British since they were already there for centuries when the British came."

 

Did you the Pashtun King's money and weapon where come from, who massacred 62% of Hazara population. from The British.

Apart from that I have seen almost all British journalists and historic books refering Hazaras to Genghis khan descendents.

 

Great Kushan Thank you for your reply.
When I wrote that I do not see any reason for the British to lie  or make a fake tale , I was trying to say that since there seems to be no benefit  for the British to lie ,we cannot assume what they say to be a complete lie or propaganda. Does anybody know of any reason why it might have  been of benefit for the British to have lied as to when the Hazara people arrived in that region?

From what we have discussed so far, it is clear that there are 3  theories or beliefs regarding the origin and the time of the arrival of Hazara people in that region.
1. They are  the descendants of the army of Genghiz-khan which marched in to the area in the 12th century AD.

2. They are the descendants of  Turkic peoples who migrated in to the area during the time of the expansion of Turkic peoples to the south and west which happened  in  the 6th - 11th century AD.

3. They are the desendants of the kushani people who build the Kushani empire during the 1st  - 3rd century AD and who constructed the great buddhas in Bamyan.

In my opinion it is more likely to be the combination of the  theory 1 and  theory 2. It is likely that  some Turkic peoples settled in that region some time between 6th and 11th century and then assimilated the remains of the Genghiz -khan s army in the 12th century, hence the common belief of Hazara people being the descendants of the Genghiz-khan .
I can see where  theory  3 comes from. It is probabably because the great buddhas stand in Bamyan which  is inhabited by Hazara people now and is a part of  Hazarajat in modern time. It is natural for people to think that their ancestors built what stands where they live now.There are a few reasons that I do not think the theory 3 is valid . First the Koshani people are known to have been a group of Indo-European people. Second they are known to have formed the basis of Pashton ethnogenesis alongside the Hephthalites. Guessing from those two reasons it is quite safe to assume that the Koshani people were of caucasoid race, especially since this is centuries  before the Turkic peoples expansion to the south and west.  I can see that some Hazara people show some caucasoid admixture, but in majority they exhibit  much stronger if not pure mongoloid features.
(Please note that I am not using the words caucasoid and mongoloid in any racist terms. Race can be a great tool in order to know people s  history and origins if used properly.)
P.S These are  only my opinions and I am not pushing anything as an absolute fact.
    
    

Edited by omshanti - 29-Nov-2006 at 22:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 13:27
Are you aware that there were any total scale local population migration prior to Turkic or Mongolic people's migration to this region? if not then how can we exclude the third theory? Hazaras do show quite caocasoid feature.

Pushtun people's origin is also quite complicated, so you can't make them as a reference for Kushans, furthermore they do have mongoloid feature if you compare them to the Punjabis.

Personally I think all the three theories should be combined. AFAIK, mtDNA of Hazaras is similar to Uzbeks, while yDNA is clearly showing their Mongolic background, and also some similarities with the neighbouring groups.

It is really a rush statement to say that the Buddah had a Monogloid face without any proof prior to the demorphation of it.

BTW, welcome to the forum, and also Great Kushan.



   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 04:45
Hi great_kushan.
 
Hazaras ARE Moongoloid; but they're not like Uzbeks. A Hazara, having a shorter height and more faicial hair and higher cheek bones, is easily distinguished from an Uzbek who is moderate among Mongoloids.
 
About Buddha, I've also heard he was from a Hunnic ancestory. The Mongoloid face great_kushan is talking about, might be the same. I could only say, it remains controversial.
 
 


Edited by gok_toruk - 11-Nov-2006 at 04:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 05:12
Finally,arae Hazaras Turkic or not?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 09:59
Originally posted by GhengisKhan GhengisKhan wrote:

Finally,arae Hazaras Turkic or not?
 
 
Hazaras
Hazara children.
Enlarge
Hazara children.
Main article: Hazara

Historically, the Hazara seem to have Turkic-Mongolian origins, but with some Caucasoid admixture from surrounding groups. Linguistically though the Hazara speak Persian, but their variant is interspersed with more Mongolian words, but this is also the case with many Turkic languages such as Uzbek. It may simply be the case that the Hazara are of Uyghur Turkic origin as many Turks accompanied the Mongol armies or arrived in the region long before the Mongols. It is however commonly believed by many Afghans that the Hazara are descendants of Genghis Khan's army, which marched into the area during the 12th century. Proponents of this view hold that many of the Mongol soldiers and their family members settled in the area and remained there after the Mongol empire dissolved in the 13th century, converting to Islam and adopting local customs. The theory regarding a more Turkic origin for the Hazara has equal validity and the relatively small number of actual Mongols in comparison to Turks makes it more likely that the Hazara are descendants of Turkic invaders who were Persianized over time. Unlike most Afghans the Hazara are Shia, which has often set them apart from their neighbors.

 
 
Hazara are proud of Turkic-mongolian origin. All Turkic peoples originated from Mongolia. There are not any pure race in the world. Specially Turkic peoples intermarriege with other nationalites are very common. For example Turks of Turkey.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:19

Turks originated in Central Asia,mongols are never than Turks but Turks have mongol blood like mongols have Turk blood.

Mixture between Turks and Mongols is very heavy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:51
Firstly common mis-conceptions must be cleared up.
 
Todays Mongols (Mongolia) were not the Mongols of Ghenghiz Khan and his armies. Most of his army and scribes were Turkic.
 
There were Turkic tribes who had converted to Buddhism as early as 3 century BC via the Hinayana and later Mahayana tradtitions. In Afganistan there were the Turki-Shahi's who had a dynasty. The Turki-Shahi's were descendants of the Kushans, they had built the Buddhist buildings in the area.
 
Its clear there were Turkic people's in the Afganistan region a long time before Ghenghiz and his armies.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 10:59
Bulldog, can you create a list of all people that are Turkic?
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