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Forum LockedHazara and Pan-Turk

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hazara and Pan-Turk
    Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:30
Im glad you understand the meaning of that poem Bulldog Thumbs%20Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:00
This is the translation for the Turkic part. The speaker pronounces the words with kind of a dialect.

"ta'rifini aylayin bir nicha muzi baini"

ta'rif = (originally Arabic; also in Persian) description , aylayin = (kind of a dialect; originally 'eyleyin') from 'eyle-mek' = to do, to accomplish , byr nicha = (kind of a dialect; originally 'byr neche' or 'byr nyche') = some, a few , muzi = sly???(if this is of Persian origin) , bay = rich


"I tell the story of some sly rich men"

---------

"gerdnimga alda'b ordi bit paykal boghdaini"

gerdnim = my neck??? (if this is of Persian origin) , aldab = having deceived , ordi = harvested , bit paykal = ? , boghday = (kind of a dialect; originally bughday) wheat


"having deceived me, he cut my neck ...? the wheat"

---------

"hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama"

hech = (from Persian hich) nobody, nothing , banda = (originally 'slave', but now used as) 'man', 'human' , khuda = Persian 'God' , oraq = harvest , dochar ailama = don't involve


"God! Don't involve anybody in harvest (to work as farmhand)"

---------

"demginem 'echimga toshdi kimga aytayo ayni"

demgin = ? , echimga = to my soul (let's say!) , toshdi = (kind of a dialect; originally tüshdy) fell into , kim = who , aytay = I say , ayni = ?


" ? fell into my soul (it means 'my heart burns' - sorry for the bad translation!); who should I say this to?"

---------

"ondan kien chotlama sang chotla gin och aini"

ondan = from that , kien = more , chotlamasang = if you don't wreck , chotlagin = wreck , och = ? , ayni = ?

"If you don't get hurt more, ...?"

---------

"hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama"


"God! Don't involve anybody in harvest (to work as farmhand)"

Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Jan-2008 at 18:12
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:15
Thanks Naimani for the Hazaragi poem, but I could only understand a few words:

Jawoni = youth, sharob = wine , yaadi yar = love's memorial , noz = (I don't know how to say it in English) , saz o dutar = songs and music instrument (Dutar) , hamesha = always , khanda = laughter


Could you please translate this? I really appreciate this also if you could tell me what all those 'ishil's mean.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:20
Originally posted by Naimani

 
There are:
Besud - Mongol (Chinggis Khaan was a Borchegen Besud too)
Naiman - Mongol
Dai-Zangies - Mongol
Dai-Kundies - Mongol
 
Jaghuries - Turkic
Turkomans - Turkic
Tatars - Turkic
Aimaq - Turkic
 
 
What does it mean the word "AIMAK" in turkic language? Do you turkic language group people use this word for  contemporary  usage?
 
AFAIK, this word AIMAK/ AIMAG is Mongolian word for tribe. Contemporary Mongolians use it as first level administrative subdivision (Provinces)- "AIMAG".
 


Edited by ProMongol - 08-Jan-2008 at 18:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 04:32
Originally posted by ProMongol

What does it mean the word "AIMAK" in turkic language? Do you turkic language group people use this word for  contemporary  usage?
 
AFAIK, this word AIMAK/ AIMAG is Mongolian word for tribe. Contemporary Mongolians use it as first level administrative subdivision (Provinces)- "AIMAG".
 
I'm not sure about its meaning, but the Aimaq clans of Afghanistan and Mongolia have the same origin, in fact they were one single tribe in the past.
 
I think Aimaq and Aimak/Aimag mean the same thing, except they are pronounced differently.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 08:22
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Thanks Naimani for the Hazaragi poem, but I could only understand a few words:

Jawoni = youth, sharob = wine , yaadi yar = love's memorial , noz = (I don't know how to say it in English) , saz o dutar = songs and music instrument (Dutar) , hamesha = always , khanda = laughter


Could you please translate this? I really appreciate this also if you could tell me what all those 'ishil's mean.
 
Sure mate! "ishil" means 'green', so "laata ishil" means, 'the girl with green scarf'
 
Jawoni erkatu ya laata ishil(young and pretty is the girl with the green scarf)
Amil taaye goloya laata ishil(has a necklace around her neck, the girl with the green scarf)
 
Sharob ochi ni da yaadi yaar khu(I'm drinking wine in the memory of my lover)
Qanjeghe ma noz ni qad saz o dutar khu(You're sitting next to me with your Dutar)
 
Ma ra ki togh muna az taaye orsi(She looks at me from a window)
Hamesha khanda roya laata ishil(Always has a smaile on her face, the girl with the green scarf)
 
Laata = scarf
Ochi = drink
Qachegha = next to
Amel/Amil = necklace
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 17:26
Thanks Naimani. Now,I can recognize more words "khanda roya" = "has a smiley face", "golu" = neck.

"Green" is "yashil" or sometimes "yeshil" in Turkic. Also, "to drink" is 'ich=mek'.

By the way, "aimaq' or "oimaq' in Turkic is the same as Mongolian. Originally, it means 'branch, devision', but it's used to point to tribes.

Edited by gok_toruk - 09-Jan-2008 at 17:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 20:13
Naiman what is the meaning of Dai? Is it a Mongol word? As far as I know there is four clans of Hazara their name begins with Dai:
 
Dai Zangi
Dai Kundi
Dai Chupan
Dai Mirdad
 
What about other two, are they Mongol?


Edited by Jalair - 09-Jan-2008 at 20:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 05:47
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Thanks Naimani. Now,I can recognize more words "khanda roya" = "has a smiley face", "golu" = neck.

"Green" is "yashil" or sometimes "yeshil" in Turkic. Also, "to drink" is 'ich=mek'.

By the way, "aimaq' or "oimaq' in Turkic is the same as Mongolian. Originally, it means 'branch, devision', but it's used to point to tribes.
You are welcome Gok Toruk! By the way 'Ishil' is pronounced differently by different clans. Jaghuri clans also pronounce it as "Yishil".
 
Originally posted by Jalair

Naiman what is the meaning of Dai? Is it a Mongol word? As far as I know there is four clans of Hazara their name begins with Dai:
 
Dai Zangi
Dai Kundi
Dai Chupan
Dai Mirdad
 
What about other two, are they Mongol?
 
Nice, you even know about Dai Chupans!
 
I think Mongolians might know more about the Dai clans. I don't know anything about their name. They say that they are the only Ilkhaanid remnants, but there were also Besuds and Turkomans who were Ilkhaanids. So they make is a bit confusing for us.
 
There are actually more Dai groups but because they are small in numbers you don't hear people mentioning them, unless you visit Hindu Kush moutain ranges of Central and Northern Afghanistan and see them yourself. Such as Dai Fulat...etc. Yes all Dai groups are Mongol with Turkoman mix. Their Hazaragi language is Turkic and Mongol mixed, unlike the Jaghuries who are mainly Turkic or the Besud, Borjigin, Naiman and Nikodari who are mainly ancient Khalkha Mongol. Dai groups would have been one of the biggest Hazara clans if they were all in the same area. But they are scattered all around Central and Northern Afghanistan. At the moment Jaghuries make up the majority of Hazara population.
 
I think Hazaras of Dai Chupan are very brave. Thousands and thousands of them went to Turkmanistan, China and Pakistan when Amir Abdur Rahman, the King of Afghanistan at that time forced them out of their homes in 1885. Shafa Khaan was a Dai Chupan leader from Maska regions of Hazarajat who was also defeated and escaped to Chinaraan on the border of Pakistan. But then he returned and got a large government land in Northern Afghanistan and slowly expanded his area till he got all Gharaw-Shaakh areas in Baghlan. And invited Hazaras to live in there and gave them land for free.


Edited by Naimani - 10-Jan-2008 at 05:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 13:55

Here are some of the Hazara clans who live outside Hazarajat(Central Afghanistan):

- Qalluq Hazaras of Khan Abad
- Ali Abad, and Takhar Hazaras
- Shekh Ali Hazaras to the east of Khan Abad
- Gar Gag Hazaras to the north of Baghlan
- Nikpai Hazaras between Khanad and Qundoz
- Koh Gadai Hazaras to the west of Nahrin
- Quzi Hazaras to the south of Nahrin and east of Khan Abad
- Tulai Hazaras to the south of Nahrin (named after Tulai Khan, the son of Changhiz Khan)
- Dala Pas Kindi to the west of Nahrin and east of Andarab
- Joy Kand Hazaras in Khan Abad
- Naiman Hazaras to the north of Baghlan
- Kolo Hazaras in Herat near the historical monuments
- Ghoriyan Hazaras in Herat; Badghis, Jawand, Darra-e Kashroo, Dai, Dah Marda, Khosha, and Lazir Hazaras around herat
- Dai Mirak Hazaras to the north and in Sholtoo
- Qora Khowal
- Nekudari
- Diwanah Qishlaq valleys
- Chal Hazaras in Iskhamish
- Hazaras of Dar-e-Hazara in Panjsher
- Koh Ghinar Hazaras in Baghlan
- Babolah Hazaras in Samangan
- Qaghai
- Qul Bars
- Bqara Batoor
- Yangai Qala
- Main Mana
- Khamisi
- Qalai Qisar
- Bab Vali
- Pul-e Khumri and Badakhshan Hazaras etc.
 
Source: (Gharjistani, 1988:275-280)


Edited by Naimani - 11-Jan-2008 at 01:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 18:05
It's really interesting to see old Altaic words still present among Hazaras. Thanks for your informative posts Naimani.

Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Jan-2008 at 18:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 01:30
Originally posted by gok_toruk

It's really interesting to see old Altaic words still present among Hazaras. Thanks for your informative posts Naimani.
Wink
 
I hope that readers find out a bit about Northern Afghanistan Hazaras too, not just Hazaras of Central Afghanistan. In the North, Hazaras reside mainly in Qataghan and Turkistan regions:
 
Naimans are one of the clans living outside Hazarajat, in Baghlan. We've had our own Khaans and Amirs eg. Amir Hazara Khaan who was Amir of Qataghan in 1740's and etc.


Edited by Naimani - 11-Jan-2008 at 03:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 21:40
Originally posted by ProMongol

Originally posted by Naimani

 
There are:
Besud - Mongol (Chinggis Khaan was a Borchegen Besud too)
Naiman - Mongol
Dai-Zangies - Mongol
Dai-Kundies - Mongol
 
Jaghuries - Turkic
Turkomans - Turkic
Tatars - Turkic
Aimaq - Turkic
 
 
What does it mean the word "AIMAK" in turkic language? Do you turkic language group people use this word for  contemporary  usage?
 
AFAIK, this word AIMAK/ AIMAG is Mongolian word for tribe. Contemporary Mongolians use it as first level administrative subdivision (Provinces)- "AIMAG".
 
 
In Uyghur Turkic we use "Uruq-Aymaq", meaning the clans. "Uruq" originally meaning "Seed".  "Aymaq" might came from the word "Ayrimaq" meaning "deviding".
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 21:42
Originally posted by Naimani

You are welcome Gok Toruk! By the way 'Ishil' is pronounced differently by different clans. Jaghuri clans also pronounce it as "Yishil".
 
 
In contemporary Uyghur Turkic it is pronounced as "Yeshil".
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 05:49
Well, in Turkmen, we almost always pronounce it as 'oy-moq'. Note that it's not like Uzbek way of writing 'a' (as in "water") in which they use 'o' instead. We pronounce it as 'oy-moq' or in some tribes as 'oy-maq'. This verb means "to get devided, to get cut":
 
"Yer oyulty" = (I don't know how to put into right words in English! But) The earth got opened (in an earthquake, for instance).
 
"oyuq, oyuq" = pieces and pieces


Edited by gok_toruk - 26-Jan-2008 at 05:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:52

"Ayrimaq" and "Oymaq" are two different words in Uyghur.

Ayrimaq: seperate, devide
 
Oymaq: (either my english is poor, or english is a poor language) a kind of act that you make a dent in something. It's different from digging. You make a shape of a basin in something with this act. Basin in Uyghur is called "Oymanliq".
 
By the meaning of Aymaq, I prefer to relate it to the first word Ayrimaq, ie deviding.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 10:29
"Oymaq" is exactly the way you explained. I can't put it into correct words either!
 
In Turkmen also, 'ayir-maq' and 'oy-maq' are two different verbs. We just haven't got 'aymaq'. You know, Turkmen is, as far as I know, the only Turkic language that uses vowel length (and a few more techniques, like shifting between vowels or adding a consonant) to distinguish two very similar, different stems:
 
almost everyone in Turkic says "ot" (grass) and "ot" (fire) or "bar" (to go, to reach) and "bar" (there is), for instance, in the same way. But Turkmen, here, uses the vowel length to differentiate two stems that were different in the Proto tongue, but is now almost the same.
 
There was, for sure, a lost vowel or consonant among either the first "ot" or the second one, but Turkic has lost it over time. Turkmen, although can't determine it exactly (or maybe it was really the vowel length), but reveals this by differentiating them, now let's say, by vowel length.
 
You can even find examples to avoid being rude! This might seem funny, but in Turkmen, Turkic "am-raq" is pronounced "ham-raq" to avoid sounding like "am" which is impolite, you know.
 
In Turkmen, there's no word with two or more meanings. That's why I was just wondering if 'ayirmaq' and 'oy-maq' are of the same origin; because in Turkmen, it should be then "ay-maq".
 
Anyhow, I'm not sure. You might be right.


Edited by gok_toruk - 28-Jan-2008 at 18:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2008 at 14:22
Hazara people are very proud of their roots. I don't count the topic starter - as there has been many Pashtuni and Islamic attempts to destroy the Hazara people. As much as the Afghans can deny it, look it up anywhere in your local library about the history behind the Pashtuns and Hazaras.
 
Naimani is the voice of a true Hazara, who's obviously taken over this thread.
Long live the Hazara nation!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2008 at 01:41
Dear Sukhabaatar,
 
You might not mean trouble, but please be careful while saying something like "Pushtuni and Islamic attempts to destroy Hazara people." We don't need ethnic hate wars here.
 
Please remaind friendly and respectful towards the other members (we do have Afghans and Pusthuns in this forum).
 
Hazara people are Muslims BTW, so your statement about Islamic attempts to destroy them doesn't make much sense.
 
Thank you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2008 at 04:14
Very well
 
To answer your query - there's different sects of Islam, Hazaras are Shi'a, Pashtuns are not - and I encourage the readers to study into Hazara/Pashtun history as well.
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