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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hazara and Pan-Turk
    Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 06:05
What do Hazaras consider themselves?  I've always had the impression they consider themselves 'Mongol,' though I have come across Hazaras whose 'tribe' claim Mongol and Turk ancestry based on their oral traditions.  
 
My question:
How did a LARGE group such as the Hazaras, who are unmistakeably of either Turk or Mongol (or mixture of both) descent, are/were  concentrated (mostly) in one large area with the rulers of the area, until recently, being mostly Turco-Mongol end up adopting a language (Persian) that would be 'foreign' to them? 
  
My observation:
Hazaras look similiar to Turkic peoples of the region (though as a group, they look possibly a degree more Mongoloid...if that makes sense), the women wear dresses in style that are similiar to the Pashtun (Kuchi) Nomads (embroidered chest, round skirts,pleated pants) though the colors used are vastly different, the jewelry and outter coat (Chappan) are exactly the style of Turkic peoples of the region, the language is a dialect of farsi with a smattering of turkic/Mongol words (Apa = Mother, Ata = Father).  I haven't read/seen anything on the culture, and most Hazaras are Shia.
 
Sorry if my question goes off-topic. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 11:36
Originally posted by khutulun

What do Hazaras consider themselves?  I've always had the impression they consider themselves 'Mongol,' though I have come across Hazaras whose 'tribe' claim Mongol and Turk ancestry based on their oral traditions.  
 
My question:
How did a LARGE group such as the Hazaras, who are unmistakeably of either Turk or Mongol (or mixture of both) descent, are/were  concentrated (mostly) in one large area with the rulers of the area, until recently, being mostly Turco-Mongol end up adopting a language (Persian) that would be 'foreign' to them? 
  
My observation:
Hazaras look similiar to Turkic peoples of the region (though as a group, they look possibly a degree more Mongoloid...if that makes sense), the women wear dresses in style that are similiar to the Pashtun (Kuchi) Nomads (embroidered chest, round skirts,pleated pants) though the colors used are vastly different, the jewelry and outter coat (Chappan) are exactly the style of Turkic peoples of the region, the language is a dialect of farsi with a smattering of turkic/Mongol words (Apa = Mother, Ata = Father).  I haven't read/seen anything on the culture, and most Hazaras are Shia.
 
Sorry if my question goes off-topic. 
 
Dear Khutulun!
 
Why do Hazaras speak Hazaragi?
My tribe, the Naimans spoke Khalkh Mongol till 18th century. My gandpa could sing folk Naiman songs till a few years ago. But the reason why Hazara people speak Hazaragi instead of Turkic like Uzbeks, or Mongolian is because Hazaras are not one single tribe, with one single language to communicate. There are many clans in Hazara tribe.
 
There are:
Besud - Mongol (Chinggis Khaan was a Borchegen Besud too)
Naiman - Mongol
Dai-Zangies - Mongol
Dai-Kundies - Mongol
 
Jaghuries - Turkic
Turkomans - Turkic
Tatars - Turkic
Aimaq - Turkic
 
They already had learnt Persian during the Ilkhaanid Hazara Mongols. And exactly thats when the language 'Hazaragi' started being used by the Hazaras. They found it easier to communicate in 'Hazaragi' because they could already speak it. But no tribe could speak Persian fluently, so they started using many Turkic and Mongol words in Hazaragi.
 
Glad to see that you are interested in Hazara history and origin. It is not as complicated as the writers make it. You are right we are Turk and Mongol mixed. But Aimaq Hazaras are too Persian now. One thing we should keep in mind that the name 'Hazara' was put on us during the Mongol Empire in the 13th century. So if you read history before the 13th Century you won't find any info about Hazaras. Because the name Hazara did not exist. But its not true to say that Hazaras 'people' didnt exists too. Hazara history is very simple if you divide their history into two stages:
 
1- Pre-Mongol Empire period:
In todays Hazarjat there is a place called 'Jaghuri'. People who live there are called Jaghuries. But there are actually four different clans living there. I don't exactly know their clan names but they date back to the Xiongnu Empire and Ak Huns. Jaghuri tribes and Uyghurs were part of the Ak Hun Empire. They moved down to Hindu-Kush mountains of Afghanistan around 2000 years ago.
 
If you read the "Secret History of the Mongols" it says that when the Great Mongolian warriors lead by Chinggis Khaans grandson reached Bamiyan, they faced a great challenge from the opponents who looked the same as the Mongol soldiers. They were surprised! This proved that those tribes existed long before the other Hazaras, such as the Ilkhaanids and Northern Hazara such as the Chaghataians.
 
2- After the Mongol Empire:
Hazara population grew very rapidly during the Mongol Empire. But when the Ilkhaanids lost, after the defeated soldiers returned to Hazarajat, the population stopped growing.
 
Here is a useful youtube link:
 
I am sorry for my messy writing, I'm in a hurry, but I hope its not as confusing as I think it is.
 
~Peace
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 20:51
Jaghuri tribes and Uyghurs were part of the Ak Hun Empire. They moved down to Hindu-Kush mountains of Afghanistan around 2000 years ago.
 
Although there were Turks in Afghanistan up until the time of the White Huns.  More Turkics moved in after the Iranian Shers of Bamian were removed from power...  I did not recall any Turkic tribes moving into Afghanistan 2,000 years ago.  Please elaborate.


Edited by Afghanan - 27-Dec-2007 at 20:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 12:18
Originally posted by Afghanan

Jaghuri tribes and Uyghurs were part of the Ak Hun Empire. They moved down to Hindu-Kush mountains of Afghanistan around 2000 years ago.
 
Although there were Turks in Afghanistan up until the time of the White Huns.  More Turkics moved in after the Iranian Shers of Bamian were removed from power...  I did not recall any Turkic tribes moving into Afghanistan 2,000 years ago.  Please elaborate.
 
Hi Afghanan! 
 
I'm not saying exactly 2000 years ago. But it was before the Kushans. You are Afghan, so I recommend you to read the Persian book called "Dairat-ul-Taarikh", its an old Farsi book that explains Afghanistan and Iran history in debth. From the Huns to Temur. Its a useful source to read.
 
We all know that there were migrations of Altaic nomads from the north to the rest of Central Asia, and other parts such as East. So its highly possible to find out that Turks existed in Central Afghanistan even before 2500 years ago. But Jaghuri clans moved in a bit later, around 2300-2000 years ago. Because I know that Jaghuri clans were under Touman, and later under his son, Mete Khaan. They were not one of the major tribes because of their smaller population compared to the other tribes such as Ting-lings, Hsien-pei, Hego and ancient Qirghiz tribes and etc. The reason is because they were divided into four smaller clans instead of one, whereas other tribes were together. This book also mentions that at that time there were already Indo-European people (possibly Asian-Aryan's ancestrs such as Iranic tribes) in Central Asia too.
 
I think that civilisation in Bamiyan began with the first migration of Turkic tribes from the North. And I have not noticed the name "Shers of Bamiyan" in any text. Can you please tell us briefly about the Shers of Bamiyan?
 
Cheerz


Edited by Naimani - 28-Dec-2007 at 12:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 22:55
I have a few books on Central Asian history.  I have the Encycolopedia of Afghanistan, History of Civilizations - Central Asia Volumes I-VI, Hudud al Alam, The Empire of the Steppes, Indo-Europeans, Early Empires of Central Asia, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, and NONE of them mention any Turkics 2500 years ago in Afghanistan.  IF there was any, some archaeological evidence would show their existence.
 
Unless you consider the Huns (who pushed the Yu-Chi (Tocharians) out of the Tarim Basin), and Saka (Scythians) (culturally speaking) who preceded them, I'm not sure where this book you mention gets its information from. 
 
According to wkipedia, the Turkic migrations occurred during the Medieval period, which is roughly 5th century to 14th century. 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Afghanan - 28-Dec-2007 at 23:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 06:58

Originally posted by Naimani

[QUOTE=khutulun] 

Why do Hazaras speak Hazaragi?
My tribe, the Naimans spoke Khalkh Mongol till 18th century. My gandpa could sing folk Naiman songs till a few years ago. But the reason why Hazara people speak Hazaragi instead of Turkic like Uzbeks, or Mongolian is because Hazaras are not one single tribe, with one single language to communicate. There are many clans in Hazara tribe.
 
 
Thank you for the info Naiman, but I don't think it answers my question.  You listed the Hazara tribes, half of whom are Mongol and the other Turk.  Why would they adopt a foreign language rather than make up a hybrid of both their languages...or just use the one that was most common?  At what point did Hazaras start speaking Hazaragi (a dialect of Persian)? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 08:43
Originally posted by khutulun

Originally posted by Naimani

[QUOTE=khutulun] 

Why do Hazaras speak Hazaragi?
My tribe, the Naimans spoke Khalkh Mongol till 18th century. My gandpa could sing folk Naiman songs till a few years ago. But the reason why Hazara people speak Hazaragi instead of Turkic like Uzbeks, or Mongolian is because Hazaras are not one single tribe, with one single language to communicate. There are many clans in Hazara tribe.
 
 
Thank you for the info Naiman, but I don't think it answers my question.  You listed the Hazara tribes, half of whom are Mongol and the other Turk.  Why would they adopt a foreign language rather than make up a hybrid of both their languages...or just use the one that was most common?  At what point did Hazaras start speaking Hazaragi (a dialect of Persian)? 
 
They started speaking Hazaragi during and after the Ilkhaanid Hazaras. Just like the Moghuls of India and Osmani Turks, Ilkhaanids loved Farsi language and poetry. That could be a reason too. 
 
I understand what you mean by making a hybrid of both languages(khalkha mongol and turkic) but it would've been too hard, may be even impossible at that time to make such a language. Considering they all could already speak Farsi they had no difficulty to communicate with each other.
 
But the Hazaragi dailect of Farsi at that time was mostly Turkic and Mongol, with just some Farsi words and the grammer used was Farsi too. Slowly they started using more and more Farsi words. I tried reading old Hazaragi poems, I didnt understand 80% of it. The only words I undestood were simple words such as 'is' 'was' and etc, the rest are old Turkic and Mongol.


Edited by Naimani - 05-Jan-2008 at 08:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 17:20
Naiman, it would be AWESOME if you could post some of those old Hazaragi poems here so that others can look at them as well...if you still have access. 
 
To the ear, Hazaragi is intelligible by other Persian speakers, I am wondering how much Turco-Mongol influence the language has (if you have run across a study of the language at all or just from personal observation)?
 
Persian languages are very beautiful, but I can't imagine a large group adopting (and abandoning their own mother tongue for) a foreign language simply based on a love for the language.  There had to be some outside impetus, if the original inhabitants of Hazarajat were indeed Altaic.
 
One more thing.  Can you tell me more about the Turkic tribe labled Turkoman?  What relation, if any, do they have with Turkmen?  From what I've gathered from a Hazara of the Turkoman tribe, their oral traditions point to a Turkmen mother and a Hazara father...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 20:34
There is a book by Prof Shah Ali Akbar Shahristani about Turkic-Mongol words in current Hazaragi published 1980s in Kabul. The book is not available online but it could worth having it online.
 
I remember an article published in "Farhange Mardom" or Folklor in Kabul (? late 1970s) translated about Hazara people, there the researcher a Swedish orientalist, mentions interviewing some peopel who speak Mongol-Turkic. The original article was published many years ago perhaps 50s or 60s.I do not remeber the author and the translatore name ( ?not sure perhaps Rawan Farhadi).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 18:07
Hi Naimani, hi Khutulun. Well, I've seen Turkmens among Hazaras. I know this will take your time, but this was something interesting to me when I first saw a Turkmen Hazara (I never knew this before 3 years ago):

You know, a large Hazara population lives in Mashat. To me (until 3 years ago), the only Asiatic looking people in Iran were Turkmens and Hazaras which I could distinguish (a bit in face, but mostly in appearance and clothes). But when I went to visit my injured friend in Hospital, there I saw Hazara women and girls (wearing "Chador") speaking in Turkmen! I said "if you're a Turkmen, how come you dress like this?!". And they replied: " Il'ge mengzesh bolmoly da".

Anyhow, I, too, was wondering about the tribe Hazara Turkmens belonged to.

Edited by gok_toruk - 07-Jan-2008 at 18:09
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 04:06
Originally posted by khutulun

Naiman, it would be AWESOME if you could post some of those old Hazaragi poems here so that others can look at them as well...if you still have access. 
 
To the ear, Hazaragi is intelligible by other Persian speakers, I am wondering how much Turco-Mongol influence the language has (if you have run across a study of the language at all or just from personal observation)?
 
Persian languages are very beautiful, but I can't imagine a large group adopting (and abandoning their own mother tongue for) a foreign language simply based on a love for the language.  There had to be some outside impetus, if the original inhabitants of Hazarajat were indeed Altaic.
 
One more thing.  Can you tell me more about the Turkic tribe labled Turkoman?  What relation, if any, do they have with Turkmen?  From what I've gathered from a Hazara of the Turkoman tribe, their oral traditions point to a Turkmen mother and a Hazara father...

Khutulun, Jalair and Gok Toruk Salam!

 

I also agree that Persian is a good language. But the fact that we have forgotten our mother-language hurt us(young Hazaras) deeply. Inshala when we finish studies and return to our country, we will have a compulsory subject in all school in Hazarajat to teach Turkic langauge for our students. I also read this idea in a Hazaragi magazine here in Sydney.

 

Turkomans = Turkmens, you see, we can't say Hazara Turkmen, Jaghuri Hazara or Borchigin Hazara or Besud Hazara etc we must keep the name Hazara away from clan names because its gets confusing. Hazara is more like a unity in which there are many Turkic and Mongol clans, from Hunnus to Aimaq Hazaras of Temur khaans army.

Someone has already told me to read Prof Shah Ali Akbar Shahristani's book. This book is made of reliable information unlike books that are written by the Persian and Arab writers.

Gok Toruk, I was born in Mashhad :D I guess you can read farsi so here is a poem for you, its written by a Hazara poet its called "A message to Turks":

الا ای تـورکتبــاران تــورکتبـــاران

بهــم یکجـا شویــد چون ابر وباران

بجــوشیـــد و بغریـــد و بباریـــــــد

بـه شهـر و ده و دشت و کوهساران

زمیــن و خـاک را سرسبز سازیــد

زبــــاغ و بوستــــان و کشتـــزاران

بنــا سازیــــد فرهنــــگ نوینــــــی

هزاره اوزبیک وتورک * وتتاران

شمـــا هستیــــد تهـــــداب تمــــــدن

دریـــن خطـه دریـن ملک ودیاران

بسوزیــــد کینــه های قرن هـــا را

بسازیــــد بــا تمــــام همــــجواران

ز بلــــخ و بامیـــان وغور وغزنـه

زکابــــل تـا هـــرات و قندهـــاران

رها سازیـــد این ملــک و وطن را

زدســــت تنبـــلان و مفتــــخواران

شماییـــــد جـــزء فرهنگ جهــانی

شمــا مســؤل این خاکـــید یــــاران

ز وحـــدت زنـده گـردد هویـت مــا

همــان هویـت که سالستش هزاران.

Khutulun, here is an old poem that dambora artists have been singing it for centuries, so its quite old, its called 'farmer' or 'Oraaqchi' in old eastern Hazaragi. Its long, and arabic alphabet was used to write it, so im just gonna write some lines:

ta'rifini ayla yin bir nicha muzi baini
gerdnimga alda'b ordi bit paykal boghdaini
hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama
 
demginem 'echimga toshdi kimga aytayo ayni
ondan kien chotlama sang chotla gin och aini
hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama
 
Singers still sing it but not all of them know what it means word by word. its basically about how farmers used to be treated unfairly by 'Bai' people meaning 'rich'. I've got some more if you want pm me khutulun.


Edited by Naimani - 08-Jan-2008 at 11:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 11:43
The poem was really exiciting. In fact, we can observe the part that says "بجــوشیـــد و بغریـــد و بباریـــــــد

بـه شهـر و ده و دشت و کوهساران", because of all those migrations. Also, "بسوزیــــد کینــه های قرن هـــا را" this is exactly what Maktym Guly (the great Turkmen poet) believes.

By the way, this poem is Turkic. Are there Hazaras in Mashat who can still speak Turkic (not Uzbeks or Turkmens)?

Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Jan-2008 at 11:47
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 11:58

Maktym Guly must be a great poet. Here is one more poem in todays Hazaragi language:

Jawoni erkatu ya laata ishil
Amil taaye goloya laata ishil
 
Sharob ochi ni da yaadi yaar khu
Qanjeghe ma noz ni qad saz o dutar khu
 
Ma ra ki togh muna az taaye orsi
Hamesha khanda roya laata ishil


Edited by Naimani - 08-Jan-2008 at 11:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 12:10
Originally posted by gok_toruk

By the way, this poem is Turkic. Are there Hazaras in Mashat who can still speak Turkic (not Uzbeks or Turkmens)?
Unfortunately, all the Hazaras i know, even close relatives have changed while they were in Iran. None of the ones I know can speak Turki. Growing up in Iran is difficult.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 12:25
can we have English translations on the non-English content. thanks
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 12:46
Originally posted by Leonidas

can we have English translations on the non-English content. thanks
Did you want line by line translation? Its a bit hard and takes time to translate them that way, but if you want I will do it. The poem with the title 'a message to Turks' says that Turkic people of Afghanistan need to wake up, and reunite and forget about the hate left in some peoples hearts from the past, and they should clean Afghanistan from those(terrorists) who sell our country to others or those who distroy our country(eg Buddhas of Bamiyan). It basically says that a united Turkic group of people can build a green and peaceful country in the future.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 13:11
Originally posted by Naimani

Originally posted by Leonidas

can we have English translations on the non-English content. thanks
Did you want line by line translation? Its a bit hard and takes time to translate them that way, but if you want I will do it. The poem with the title 'a message to Turks' says that Turkic people of Afghanistan need to wake up, and reunite and forget about the hate left in some peoples hearts from the past, and they should clean Afghanistan from those(terrorists) who sell our country to others or those who distroy our country(eg Buddhas of Bamiyan). It basically says that a united Turkic group of people can build a green and peaceful country in the future.
  a rough translation is fine, its just that this is an English only forum, so if such things get posted translations need to accompany it, thats all.

 Aimiq are hazara? have you got any more info on that

BTW welcome to the forumSmile

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Leonidas

  a rough translation is fine, its just that this is an English only forum, so if such things get posted translations need to accompany it, thats all.

 Aimiq are hazara? have you got any more info on that

BTW welcome to the forumSmile

Thanks! Smile
 
Aimaqs are in two groups in Afghanistan:
- Northern Afghanistan Aimaqs
- Western Afghanstan Aimaqs(on the border of Iran and Afghanistan)
 
They reason why they are divided in two groups is because they are different from each other. They were both once known as Hazaras, but Western Aimaqs in Afghanistan started getting mixed with the iranians, and some even say they are Persian. They speak Hazaragi dailect, with more persian words. Some unfortunately try to take some clans out of the Hazara tribe to make Hazara population smaller, that way they can get rid of the name Hazara slowly. Some Hazaras in northern Afghanistan were forced to have Tajiki passports and ID's for the same reason. In many books or sites they classify Western Aimaqs as a separate tribe. Western Aimaqs are divided into four groups:
 
1- Jamshidi
2- Temuri
3- Taimani
4- ----------(dont remember this 1!)
 
But the Northern Aimaqs are pure and proud Hazaras. They are one single Hazara clan, and you can easily tell if a Hazara family is Aimaq just by their surenames, 'Aimaq'!


Edited by Naimani - 08-Jan-2008 at 13:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:15
Naimani
Turkomans = Turkmens, you see, we can't say Hazara Turkmen, Jaghuri Hazara or Borchigin Hazara or Besud Hazara etc we must keep the name Hazara away from clan names because its gets confusing. Hazara is more like a unity in which there are many Turkic and Mongol clans, from Hunnus to Aimaq Hazaras of Temur khaans army.
 
So is Hazara a pollitical name for the tribal confederation of clans and tribes in the region? There are many Mongol and Turkic clans in the area and they united in a pollitical formation of Hazaras?
 
If so this seems similar to the "Qashqai", in similar fashion Qashqai are an island of Turks in a sea of non-Turks which seems similar to the Hazara (except for there being a heavy Mongol presence aswell).
 
The Qashqai also are a confederation of Turkic tribes, mainly belonging to the branches of the Oghuz Igdyr, Yazyr, Afshar, Bayats, Begdilli... which were united in the Fars region of Iran by "Cani Aga Qashqai".
 
 
 
"A message to Turks":

الا ای تـورکتبــاران تــورکتبـــاران

بهــم یکجـا شویــد چون ابر وباران

بجــوشیـــد و بغریـــد و بباریـــــــد

بـه شهـر و ده و دشت و کوهساران

زمیــن و خـاک را سرسبز سازیــد

زبــــاغ و بوستــــان و کشتـــزاران

بنــا سازیــــد فرهنــــگ نوینــــــی

هزاره اوزبیک وتورک * وتتاران

شمـــا هستیــــد تهـــــداب تمــــــدن

دریـــن خطـه دریـن ملک ودیاران

بسوزیــــد کینــه های قرن هـــا را

بسازیــــد بــا تمــــام همــــجواران

ز بلــــخ و بامیـــان وغور وغزنـه

زکابــــل تـا هـــرات و قندهـــاران

رها سازیـــد این ملــک و وطن را

زدســــت تنبـــلان و مفتــــخواران

شماییـــــد جـــزء فرهنگ جهــانی

شمــا مســؤل این خاکـــید یــــاران

ز وحـــدت زنـده گـردد هویـت مــا

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Housecarl
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Joined: 03-Jul-2007
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:28
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
So is Hazara a pollitical name for the tribal confederation of clans and tribes in the region? There are many Mongol and Turkic clans in the area and they united in a pollitical formation of Hazaras?
 
If so this seems similar to the "Qashqai", in similar fashion Qashqai are an island of Turks in a sea of non-Turks which seems similar to the Hazara (except for there being a heavy Mongol presence aswell).
 
The Qashqai also are a confederation of Turkic tribes, mainly belonging to the branches of the Oghuz Igdyr, Yazyr, Afshar, Bayats, Begdilli... which were united in the Fars region of Iran by "Cani Aga Qashqai".
 
Well done Big%20smile Hazara are a confederation of Turkic-o-Mongol clans from both:
- Turks of before Mongol empire(who were in Afghanistan for around 2300 years)
- Turks and Mongols of the Ilkhaanid and Chaghataian empires
 
Yes, the tribes that live in Hazarajat areas are all Turk-o-Mongol.
 
The fact is that we didnt choose to be called Hazaras, it was people from other tribes who started calling us by the name Hazara when we had no power, after the collapse of Ilkhaanids.
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