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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 21:58
Napoelon used the captured houses and supply depots to feed and supply the armies. Spanish militants hid around the shelters that Napoleon's armies were using and ambushed them. They also made their suprise attack in the middle of the crowd, and shielding themselves with Spanish commoners. The French invaders, being the professional armies, gathered themselves in a line and fired where the Spanish fires came from. The Spanish commoners were the easiest to hit, and brought even more resentments against French invaders.
 
But wait, how was General Wellington successful against Napoleon? Yay, could someone find that out for me? Thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:18
This should not be classified as a gurilla trick. It is the trick which the terrorists use to get sympathy.
 
Indian King Shivaji successfully used gurilla warfare for defeating the mighty mughals. He had a very very small army. (rather a militia of poor peasants who were parttime soldiers & knew that he could not fact the huge progessional mughal armies in plains) He would somehow lead the mughal army into the mountains, station his soldiers at strategic places in the mountains, ambush the mughal army & by the time they mobilised to, he would withdraw. The mughal army would be confused wait for some time for an attack to come or search for Shivaji's soldiers, but would be frustrated & resume it's march, only to be attacked again very soon, at some other strategic point with same tactics. 
 
He would never, never engage the Mughals near any settlement, because he knew the frustrations of the mughals would be vented against the civilian Hindu population of the locality.
 
In this way he was able to beat armies often as much as a million strong with  part time soldiers. He was the founder of the Maratha Empire in India.
 
Later these gurilla tactics of the marathas under the leadership of Balaji Vishwanath Bhatt won admiration from the English generals of the time also.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 09:43
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

 
Thanks for this info.  My impression was that the ones who were in power blowing up ancient ruins were not the same people that have been living in Afghanistan for a very long time, that they were people coming from areas in Pakistan.  Thanks for making it clearer.
 
 
That is people regurgitating the same populist media, i dont blame them to be honest. There was a split in the taliban over the blowing up issue and some were very unhappy about it. However, the people who blew it up were Afghans but not those local to Bamyan, which is a Hazara territory. It was a terrible incident but i think the japanese are trying hard to reconstruct.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cuchulain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 17:50
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

Napoleon could have occupied Spain...  until he decided to pull his troops to prepare for Russian invasion. Guerrilla warfare cannot win against the professional army until the the invaders just decide that it's not worth fighting these guerrilla militants. 


That's true, but I never said Napoleon couldn't have occupied it eventually, I said the Spanish Guerrilla's were able to "cripple" France's forces. And too bad he left Spain, because his Grand Army fell prey to Russia's pride and joy tactic, scortched earth. The greatest contributing factor that lead to his downfall. He should have cut his losses, those were two ventures that went terribly wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:51

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma Vivek Sharma wrote:

This should not be classified as a guerilla trick. It is the trick which the terrorists use to get sympathy.  

 

I guess... but aren't terrorists, to some extent, a type of guerrilla militants? After all, any kind of armies want some sympathy from others to justify their cause. U.S. declares war against Iraq for hiding weapons of mass destruction. I encounter many Bush supporters justifying the invasion by saying... "Well, if they had nothing to hide, why did they refuse to allow inspection?" Fools. Why do you think Gulf War started? Saddam may not have been smart enough to think that his careless rejection would create war... but a nation do not just march to another nation just because one have a superior weapon. Look at Iran. Everyone knows that Iran has nuclear capability but U.S. can't touch Iran carelessly in Iran because they got nukes. Same concept for N. Korea. Russians justified their occupation over Eastern Europe during WWII because they took just a huge part in the war, and U.S. or Britain could not afford to create another World War against Communist regime.

 

Heck, we often make excuses to justify our actions. I did not bring homework because my dog ate it. I could not get A in test because we did not have enough time. I know I sound like teachers but let's face it. We are all imperfect and selfish beings. Even our gesture of kindness is being selfish. We act generously to make ourselves feel better. Be truthful guys. "I did it because it was a right thing to do..." Well, doing a right thing makes you feel good and special, eh?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 23:57
You are right Pekau, we should rather put up the qualification as Gurilla Armies (like the one of the Indian king, Shivaji) & gurilla terrorists like the Hizbolla
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 00:53
Originally posted by malizai_ malizai_ wrote:

That is people regurgitating the same populist media, i dont blame them to be honest. There was a split in the taliban over the blowing up issue and some were very unhappy about it. However, the people who blew it up were Afghans but not those local to Bamyan, which is a Hazara territory. It was a terrible incident but i think the japanese are trying hard to reconstruct.
 
Yes, I just did another research; seems there are Pashtun in Pakistan going into Afghanistan to help their brethren - if I confused them with the people who did the bombing it must be because I'm "regurgitating populist media". Tongue
 


Edited by Hellios - 06-Nov-2006 at 00:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 05:05
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:


Impressive.  Did they have any particular favorite tactic


Hit, run, cut the enemies todger off.

I'd vote Spanish guerillas too. I seem to remember they had some quite crazy kill count like 100 kills a day.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 09:16
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

Originally posted by malizai_ malizai_ wrote:

That is people regurgitating the same populist media, i dont blame them to be honest. There was a split in the taliban over the blowing up issue and some were very unhappy about it. However, the people who blew it up were Afghans but not those local to Bamyan, which is a Hazara territory. It was a terrible incident but i think the japanese are trying hard to reconstruct.
 
Yes, I just did another research; seems there are Pashtun in Pakistan going into Afghanistan to help their brethren - if I confused them with the people who did the bombing it must be because I'm "regurgitating populist media". Tongue
 
 
They indeed are, no doubt. But those are not the ones calling the shots. More research will tell you that.Smile the populist media thing was not a dig at u BTW.  I simply meant to say that the panel of "experts" hosted on popular media channels keep on repeating the same incorrect information, which the public at large picks up as fact. Hence the confusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 11:34
Thanks for the info malizai_.
 
Are there any ideological differences between the Pashtun living in Pakistan and the rest of the Afghans?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:53

The North waziristanis don't usually agree with the SouthLOL. They have ideological differences like everybody else. Ideological differences or similarities dont begin or end at the boundaries.

Karzai i believe agreed with the taliban before now, now he doesnt, he may well again in the future.

One thing is certain and that is that any long term Govt at the center will include the Taliban or who ever is the dominant Pashtun block. I am very sure that by now the Americans have realized this but cant quite seem to figure out how to bring this about.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 00:06
How do the Uzbeks & Tajiks fit into the picture?  Was Massoud a Tajik?  What happened to the so called "Northern Alliance"?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 06:57
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma Vivek Sharma wrote:

You are right Pekau, we should rather put up the qualification as Gurilla Armies (like the one of the Indian king, Shivaji) & gurilla terrorists like the Hizbolla


That seems like a very subjective view, especially seeing as the majority of the world do not view Hezbollah as a terrorist group. In fact, at last check, it was only 6 nations. Not so long ago the Taliban were the great resistance heroes of Afghanistan, bravely facing the mighty and terrible Soviet Empire. Now they're terrorists, despite not a single change in tactics. It seems to me that you wish to label your own heroes as great tacticians, while labelling those of whom you disapprove as terrorist murderers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 07:41
Sounds that we're getting confused here. Both guerilla and terrorism are military tactics that were imposed a moral stigma on latter (positive for guerilla, negative for terrorism).

The priciple of guerilla is perfectly summed up by the comrad Mao: 1 against 100 on the strategic level but 100 to 1 at the tactical level. Which means, guerilla is meant to create a serie of tactical successes which ultimately will matter on the strategic level. Its aim is also to gain the suport of the people as this support may at one point precisely create the balance of force in the guerilla group advantage.

Terrorism is totally different as its principle is to have a tatical success with potentially no strategic implications but that will enable it to force the government to act. It is a kind of black mail.

Of course these two have a lot in common and it is quite easy for a group to use both but they are differents. Even worst the same action may be according to its goals be whether guerilla or terrorism. If you bomb a train full of militaries, it is most likely guerilla. If you bomb a train full of civilian it is most likely terrorism. Guerilla aims at a military victory, terrorism a political one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 11:44
Maharbbal has done a good job of explaining it.
 
Saying Hezbollah are not good guerilla fighters because they're "terrorists" is like saying a good sprinter cannot run fast because he believes in killing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 20:28
Precisely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 05:58
I disagree. 'Terrorists' have traditionally been elements of official armies intended to spread panic and fear behind enemy lines in order to weaken enemy morale. This is very similar to the role of a guerilla fighter, which cannot win a war through traditional means and instead operates to break enemy moral and bring people to their own cause. There is, essentially, no difference. The fact also remains that Hezbollah are NOT a terrorist group, no matter how much Israel calls foul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 15:20
Originally posted by Zaitsev Zaitsev wrote:

I disagree. 'Terrorists' have traditionally been elements of official armies intended to spread panic and fear behind enemy lines in order to weaken enemy morale. This is very similar to the role of a guerilla fighter, which cannot win a war through traditional means and instead operates to break enemy moral and bring people to their own cause. There is, essentially, no difference. The fact also remains that Hezbollah are NOT a terrorist group, no matter how much Israel calls foul.


I disagree me too.

Terrorism hasn't been used for ever as you mention. Using fear as a strategy is one thing, being a terrorist is another. There are four way to use fear in warfare I think:
1) To frighten the soldiers and diminuish their fighting capabilities.
2) To break the moral of the populatio (WWII)
3) To increase the enemy's defense spending as he 'fears' an attack
4) To black mail a government in order for it to act according to your will.

Terrorism is only 4) (but 3) and 2) may be by-products).

Terrorist do not act blindly or more importantly successful terrorist didn't act blindly. Their actions must echo so much that the pressure over the government become so heavy that the government has no choice but negociate. A rapid comparison will explain my point:
9/11 was costly for the US and the western world but was far from being unbearable, what mattered was the symbol.
the awful story about the hostages in the school in Russia was catchy because it was kinds involved.
the usual attacks in the tubes (France 1995, 7/7, IRA...) is meant to show that it could happen to you
the hijacking of planes works because it is spectacular (the airport becomes a stage under the cameras' eye).
And so on and so forth, the result is none of these actions may have endangered the stability of the state but the mediatic echo was so important that it forced the states involved to take action and (in one case: IRA) to negociate.

Terrorism is almost impossible without a centralized power to pressure (see Iraq nowadays, the death tool is so high but as nobody's responsible, it goes on) or in a non-democratic society (needs media to talk about the attack, need popular check on the politician to force them to act).

So what about Hezbollah (for which I have no sympathy whatsoever)?
1) They are trying to pressure the Israeli government (through both the population and the international community) but are unable to arm Israel significantly. (+1)
2) They have assets that can be distroyed (army, local support in Lebeanon, officials) and they care about it (excuses after the war) (+0)
3) They do not only attack the population but have a front line. (+0)
4) They have other means than violence to conquer their base's hearts, but it remains a important factor. (+0.5)
So they score 1.5 on 4, which would make them a non-terrorist organization using terrorist means. And that what they are, they used to be terrorist, they are changing but still conserve a strong terrorist taste.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 17:10
I won't get into any deep discussions about Hezbollah being terrorists, but I will say that the manner in which they fought the last conflict with Israel in Lebanon was a guerilla war, and despite our own political & ideological preferences we cannot argue that they did it effectively.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 17:15
Here's a funny tactical manual published by the Central Intelligence Agency and distributed to the Contras in Central America:
 
http://www.kimsoft.com/guerilla.htm (there are other/better sources with this document)
 
It's very funny, and not really the same situation as Lebanon, but relevant to the thread topic.
 
 


Edited by Hellios - 08-Nov-2006 at 17:20
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