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Forum LockedGreek Orthodoxy and theocracy

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eaglecap View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek Orthodoxy and theocracy
    Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 20:14
I only attended the Greek Orthodox church 3 yeas when I was a kid but reading Byzantine history the Emperor was God's representative on Earth. I keep hearing how the Protestants want to make the USA a theocracy but wasn't the Orthodox church one in the past? Do the Orthodox still hold onto this doctrine or has reform done away it it?

If Othodoxy became dominate in the USA would they demand that the President must be an Orthodox and, in turn, become God's representative on Earth. I am only curious and really believe the church has reformed and no longer holds onto this archaic belief. But, I was mostly raised Lutheran so any ideas???

I have gone back to visit a few times and enjoy the ritual so no offense to Christian Orhodoxy.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 21:22

I don't really have the time to reply to this at length now, but I will try to in the next day or so. To sum it up, the term "theocracy" is quite the oversimplification, and the designation "archaic" possibly derives from this oversimplification. Indeed, the topic of Church/State relations in the East could occupy several books, so I would like us to be aware of the complexity of the issue if we are going to discuss it. Perhaps if you gave me a brief explanation of how you view the relations between the Church and the State in the Roman, Russian, etc. societies I might be able to understand precisely what you are asking a bit better.

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 21:44

In my opinion the form of Orthodox church changes depending on the nation, which is the beauty of it, instead of the uniformed and centralised Catholics.
 Who knows what would happen if Orthodoxy was dominant in US, Americans are strange people with strange (or rather anachronistic) notions on God and country.

I might write more tomorrow but I was studying all day for my university exams and I am exhausted


Edited by Vorian - 02-Feb-2009 at 21:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 19:40
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

I don't really have the time to reply to this at length now, but I will try to in the next day or so. To sum it up, the term "theocracy" is quite the oversimplification, and the designation "archaic" possibly derives from this oversimplification. Indeed, the topic of Church/State relations in the East could occupy several books, so I would like us to be aware of the complexity of the issue if we are going to discuss it. Perhaps if you gave me a brief explanation of how you view the relations between the Church and the State in the Roman, Russian, etc. societies I might be able to understand precisely what you are asking a bit better.


-Akolouthos


I look forward to it and please send me a priv message once you have completed it so I won't forget it. Vorian also!!

Edited by eaglecap - 03-Feb-2009 at 19:41
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 20:34
Definitely, eaglecap. I just don't want to rush through summarizing several different cases through two-thousand years of Church history, if you understand. It will be just a summary, but I would like some time to collect my ever-scattered thoughts. LOL
 
For the record, Vorian's statement does have a great deal of merit. Still, I am a bit wary of oversimplification, so I will say no more for now.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 03-Feb-2009 at 20:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 22:47
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I only attended the Greek Orthodox church 3 yeas when I was a kid but reading Byzantine history the Emperor was God's representative on Earth. I keep hearing how the Protestants want to make the USA a theocracy but wasn't the Orthodox church one in the past? Do the Orthodox still hold onto this doctrine or has reform done away it it?

Surely the two most important reasons as to why there is no eastern Emperor now is the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453, and the Russian revolution in 1917.

It gives a whole new meaning to the Battle of the Three Emperors, the Emperor of the western Church and the Emperor of the eastern Church vs the Emperor of secularism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 21:41
Akolouthos/Vorian - anything new on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 22:55
I think it is a comparison of two very different historical and political contexts. 
 
Although Orthodoxy became institutionalized in close proximity to imperial governments, it does not mean that it requires an emperor to remain an ecclesiastical institution. 
 
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the advent of Communism in many Orthodox lands, the Church became forced to detach itself from the governmental institution.  If it did not, it suffered painful consequences, as the Church in Russia did for a while.
 
This being said, if Orthodoxy somehow became the dominant religion in America, I don't think it would require that the President be Orthodox or that he become a new theocratic emperor.  Now, in other countries where there is still a close connection and phyletism runs high in the Church, it could very well happen.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 23:30
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Akolouthos/Vorian - anything new on this?
 
Oh, bloody hell. I did promise to respond in this thread, didn't I? Mea culpa. LOL
 
I largely concur with Byz's analysis, and may offer some minor clarifications. I do apologize for the delay.
 
-Akolouthos
 
EDIT: Come to think of it, I think Byz hit everything that I may have hit had I posted. I really have nothing further to offer. Way to go Byz. Smile


Edited by Akolouthos - 24-Feb-2009 at 02:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 14:50
Political power and religion....instant recipe for disaster!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 18:56

'Orthodoxy' is the dominant Christian denomination in various countries that do not have monarchs. I doubt very much too that if the Episcopalians became dominant in the US they wold insist on electing a monarch, even though to follow the Anglican paradigm you might logically expect it.

As far as I'm aware, while all Catholic churches believe in the one true church, they don't associate that with a single secular head, even though the Romans accept a single ecclesiastical head. Even the Anglicans don't believe the authority of the Queen extends outside the territories of which she is sovereign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Akolouthos/Vorian - anything new on this?

 

Oh, bloody hell. I did promise to respond in this thread, didn't I? Mea culpa. LOL

 

I largely concur with Byz's analysis, and may offer some minor clarifications. I do apologize for the delay.

 

-Akolouthos

 

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think Byz hit everything that I may have hit had I posted. I really have nothing further to offer. Way to go Byz. Smile


It is ok now and the issue has been addressed and resolved- I will now sign up to be the next Patriarch of the world-
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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