History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedGreek history

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
PEGASUS View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PEGASUS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek history
    Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 02:32
Hi,
As you all know greek citizens have always considered themselves as athenians/spartans/corinthians.. rather than greeks, till the classical period *I think*. So my question is:
How and when did Corinthians, Athenians, Euboeans etc…. come to perceive themselves also as Greeks?
Back to Top
AksumVanguard View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 01-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 03:14
Greeks have always been very competitive and hostile. They were an admixture of different cultures  such as the Dorians ,Mynceans,Minoans,and others. They only thing that binded them were the Olympics and their language. Even though Greeks spoke different dialects on different Islands. Prior to persian Wars Greece mainly relied on oligarchy. But with the threat of the Persians the Athenians invented democracy,and were able to ally different citiy-staes with each other.It was known as the Athenian Delian League. The Spartans were a great Military force but carried no diplomacy nor had any trade or craft which is why they were not able to keep in power.
Back to Top
Jallaludin Akbar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Jan-2009
Location: U.S.A!
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 03:38
The also adopted the "United we stand, divided we fall" notion. Without the threat of any outside powers, the Greek city-states constantly engaged in warfare (as land in the southern balkans ws precious). But as an external empire medled in their affairs, most greek city-states would band togather in order to defend their Hellenic homeland. ex Persia...Xerxes had the same notion, since the greek city states are divided, it would be easier to conquer them. He was greatly mistaken and faced stiff resistence.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-Mahatma Gandhi

Back to Top
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 566
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 08:33
Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

The also adopted the "United we stand, divided we fall" notion. Without the threat of any outside powers, the Greek city-states constantly engaged in warfare (as land in the southern balkans ws precious). But as an external empire medled in their affairs, most greek city-states would band togather in order to defend their Hellenic homeland. ex Persia...Xerxes had the same notion, since the greek city states are divided, it would be easier to conquer them. He was greatly mistaken and faced stiff resistence.


And they did exactly the opposite against the Romans who were clever enough to play one Helleenic power against the other.
Back to Top
dexippus View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 17-Feb-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dexippus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 10:06
Hellenic unity was cultural, not political. Indeed, the first time when all Greek would be united under a single political entity came in the Roman Empire. At some point, the definition of Greek was arbitrary; language was the primary criterion, but ultimately some dialects would be accepted as Greek (ie Doric) and some closely related languages rejected as non-Greek (i.e. Macedonian).

Greek collective cultural identity seems to have arisen in the 8th and 7th century, when the great pan-Hellenic institutions arise, particularly the festivals at Olympia, Delphi Nemea and Isthmia. The spread of writing may have further facilitated cultural homogenization, particularly through the dispersion of the Homeric cannon. 

The Persian invasions show Greece to actually be badly divided; many Greeks, particularly the Thebans, collaborate. However, the defeat of the Persians by a coalition of Greek states led by Sparta and Athens lays the groundwork for new definitions of Greek unity, based on the antithesis of the Persian "other." In the 4th century, the writer Isocrates begged that the warring Greek states unite against the Persian empire, and Philip II tried to frame his domination of the Greek poleis as an alliance against the barbarian. 

That being said, notions of Hellenic unity were largely shallow. Regional tensions and stereotypes persisted, both positive and negative.  Athenians, for example, portrayed Boiotians as boorish rubes. Polybius, while a statesmen in the greater Achean League, can still wax about the musical education in his native Arcadia. 

Ultimately, while literature, religion, athletics and trade did help create a sense of common cultural identity, strong forces of cultural regionalism and parochialism remained, while political unification required the coercive force of an outside empire.
Back to Top
Darius of Parsa View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 03-Oct-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 14:14
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

The also adopted the "United we stand, divided we fall" notion. Without the threat of any outside powers, the Greek city-states constantly engaged in warfare (as land in the southern balkans ws precious). But as an external empire medled in their affairs, most greek city-states would band togather in order to defend their Hellenic homeland. ex Persia...Xerxes had the same notion, since the greek city states are divided, it would be easier to conquer them. He was greatly mistaken and faced stiff resistence.


And they did exactly the opposite against the Romans who were clever enough to play one Helleenic power against the other.


Darius and Xerxes did this as well.

What is the officer problem?
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 08:40
Lets not forget the "pontic greeks", whom thrived in asia minor for centuries.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Status: Offline
Points: 1448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 20:49
Originally posted by PEGASUS PEGASUS wrote:

Hi,
As you all know greek citizens have always considered themselves as athenians/spartans/corinthians.. rather than greeks, till the classical period *I think*. So my question is:
How and when did Corinthians, Athenians, Euboeans etc…. come to perceive themselves also as Greeks?
Ancient Greece  or the Ancient Greek world consisted of several hundred more-or-less independent city states and monarchies. There was not and "Greek citizenship" only a domestic (Athenian, Corinthian, Macedonian e.t.c.) or colonial citizenship.
 
 
Originally posted by Penelope Penelope wrote:

Lets not forget the "pontic greeks", whom thrived in asia minor for centuries.
Pontians  located in Euxinus , name of modern Black Sea.  In Minor Asia  there were also and the Ionians.
Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 21:58
The notion of "Hellenism", expressed (as mentioned above) in the pan-Hellenic events - is most acutely present in the Greek psyche at moments of crisis, for example at the time of the Persian Wars, when confronted with the Macedonian threat (and I'm just thinking here about the perspective of Demosthenes: if the conflict should be really seen as one between Greeks is a discussion I would not wish to start) or when living under the boot of the Romans.

For a discussion of Hellenism during the Imperial age and the complex relation between the Romanisation of Greeks and Hellenisation of Romans, see Goldhill's "Being Greek under Rome".

Eventually, the Greeks became "Rhomaioi" and the "Hellenes" became "the pagans".
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 22:49
Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

Originally posted by PEGASUS PEGASUS wrote:

Hi,
As you all know greek citizens have always considered themselves as athenians/spartans/corinthians.. rather than greeks, till the classical period *I think*. So my question is:
How and when did Corinthians, Athenians, Euboeans etc…. come to perceive themselves also as Greeks?
Ancient Greece  or the Ancient Greek world consisted of several hundred more-or-less independent city states and monarchies. There was not and "Greek citizenship" only a domestic (Athenian, Corinthian, Macedonian e.t.c.) or colonial citizenship.
 
 
Originally posted by Penelope Penelope wrote:

Lets not forget the "pontic greeks", whom thrived in asia minor for centuries.
Pontians  located in Euxinus , name of modern Black Sea.  In Minor Asia  there were also and the Ionians.
 
Yes, generally every inhabitant, from the shores of the Black Sea and Pontus.


Edited by Penelope - 21-Feb-2009 at 22:51
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
Back to Top
PEGASUS View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PEGASUS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 03:17

Thank you all for your replies.........that was really helpful, also check "The Spread of Hellenism" section in this link: http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch12ev.htm

I think citizenship exchange is that critical point which I was looking for....


Edited by PEGASUS - 22-Feb-2009 at 03:28
Back to Top
ericalauren View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 27-Feb-2009
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericalauren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 10:32
I just met someone last week who considers himself Cretan and NOT Greek. I think this is very interesting, considering that my Greek friends all consider themselves Greek and not Corinthian, Euboean, ect.
Back to Top
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 566
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 13:53
Well there are always a few hard cases around....
Back to Top
Patrinos View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: Moreas
Status: Offline
Points: 443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 13:56

Originally posted by ericalauren ericalauren wrote:

I just met someone last week who considers himself Cretan and NOT Greek. I think this is very interesting, considering that my Greek friends all consider themselves Greek and not Corinthian, Euboean, ect.

Smile 

Allow me to believe that its a fiction story...

Of course localism is present in Greece, and I can see it in myself too, being a native of Peloponnesus.  

I can't imagine Greece without Crete...i think the Creatan Eleftherios Venizelos thought this way too...

"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Status: Offline
Points: 1814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 11:30
Originally posted by ericalauren ericalauren wrote:

I just met someone last week who considers himself Cretan and NOT Greek. I think this is very interesting, considering that my Greek friends all consider themselves Greek and not Corinthian, Euboean, ect.


Yes, you might find few cases like that but it is very rare. Cretans can be very nationalistic otherwise. There're largely responsible for the re-unification of Greeks in modern times and they're the ones that produced the phrase "There's no Greece without Crete". On the other side, Cretans get along mostly with Macedonians, rather with other Greeks and vice versa. That's because the past centuries events and because of romatism. The Cretans themselves were originally a civilization of its own and the island was colonized later by northern Greeks.

However, localism still exists all over and that's usually because some regions have rivarly with others or just because politically, the centres are Athens and Thessaloniki. You will also note, portions of people being more proud and competitive towards others e.g Pontians who are Greeks that arrived from Anatolia or Asia Minor Greeks who lived in Ionia.

Btw, Greeks internaly usually use localization terms when meeting. Therefore, between Greeks you will hear "I'm Cretan, I'm Maniatis, I'm Epirotis, I'm Thessalos, I'm Pontios" etc. Cypriots usually say "I'm Cypriot" to a Greek of the Hellenic republic, but when speaking with a foreigner they eather say "I'm Greek Cypriot" or simply "Cypriot".




Edited by Flipper - 01-Mar-2009 at 11:34


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.