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Forum LockedGreek ancestory of the Kailashis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 08:52
Originally posted by Tyranos Tyranos wrote:

There doesnt seem to be a genetic link between the Greeks and Kalash, but there is one between the Greeks and Pathans:

Link:
Greek origins of some Pathans but not other Pakistanis

 
           The Pakhtuns history goes much farther back in time than either the Greeks or the Jews (to which they are many times associated). They probably were existing as a seperate tribe in about 4500 B.C.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 12:23
^ ive read that pathans have more of a link as well, its irrelevant if their history goes further.

Isolate populations like the kalash can hold on to a certain ancient memory untainted, ironically their isolation also may mean there was no direct link in the first place or a strong enough one that can be detected now.

I have theorize the same about isolated language groups vs genetics, they are the last to change in the first and last place. Meaning that they gain languages learned from more dynamic populations that can either be nomadic or near by urban. The original speakers eventually move on in terms of language while pockets of indirectly related populations carry on with the older legacy language. In this case the legacy wasn't language but a certain memory/myth.

Edit: In the case of the kalash it doesn't matter what their genes are, but rather what their myth or belief is. Theirs is no different to any other bloodline based ethnic identity.


Edited by Leonidas - 05-Mar-2008 at 12:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 12:35
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

 
    Yes i had thought of that before. When i hear many western tavelleres make the comment that the people in the Himalayas, remember that not just the Kailashis but among all people in the himalayas blue eyes and red, blond hair are common, are nordic and that may be because of Alexander and i thought that yeah as if Greeks are a nordic people. Another Norhern European made a comment gloating that how the people of the mid-east were beaten by Nordic Greeks and i remember saying , "Yeah right, Nordic Greeks". Why don't they take a look at the 2D depictions of Greeks to see how Nordic they were.  
    It seems strange that whenever anywhere light hair and light eyes occur these northern europeans think that they had been there, forget bothering with history which records no such movement but apparently the northern Europeans desperate for some antiquity try to find Northern European contribution in everything of anything of any worth. In the million of lines of ancient Indian literature the Brahmins are explicitly described as black haired and many times dark skinned but they just take one reference form Pannini who lived in the Peshawar valley and hence of course had seen brown and blone hair and override everything else by saying that all the ancient brahmins were all blue eyed and blond haired. Hmph why don't they take a look at the Australian Aboriginals, blonde hair are common among them yet do Northern Europeans call them Nordic.   

What "northern Europeans"? How about not generalising millions of people from some odd comment from one or two?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 12:45
It is not surprising that the remenats of greeks e assimilated into the larger local populace, but their contribution does not seem to be that significant. The Greeks settlements were more to the north of the traditional Pashtun heartland areas of the South East. The migrations to the north and north-east are of a later period, if i a m right. I have read much but still am not sure who the exact inhabitants of the Jalalabad-peshawar-taxila region were.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 15:21
How many such groups exist in pakistan? I read on the net about another such group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaArchaeology/message/6646

"The claim by some authors that Nagar Brahmins are of Greek descent
must be fairy recent, perhaps last century or so.

The Nagar Brahmins tend to be quite fair skinned, comparable to
Khatris of Punjab, or brahmins from Punjab/Kashmir area. Thus their
fairness is not that unusual.

There is an account of the origin of the Nagars in Nagar Khanda of
Skanda Purana. Unfortunately, like many other such texts it is not
possible to date this text. However it does contain some historical
information embedded in mythological form.

They are from some place called Hataka, which according to
dictionaries, was somewhere in the mountains. According to Nagar
Khanda, when original Hataka became inaccessible, a Hatakeshwara
temple was built in Gujarat.

I have wondered if the original Hataka may have been Attock. The
grammarian Panini lived not very far from Attock on the Indus river.

The people of Chitral are related to the Kafirs of Kafiristan. The
theory that the Kafirs are descendants of the Greeks also must have
been of recent origin. The Kafirs of Kafiristan were largely
inaccesible before their conquest and conversion in 1895-1896.
However there is a valuable account by Sir G. S. Robertson who
visited them in 1892.

The dialects of the various Kafir tribes as well as those in Chitral
have been extensively studied. As one would expect, they show very
strong Sanskrit influence.

See Gerard Fussmann's: 1972 Atlas linguistique des parlers dardes et
kafirs. It has detailed maps and analysis of the dialects.

There is another recent theory that the Kafirs (now called
Nuristanis) are descendants of the Arabs. The simple fact is that
they were mountain Hindus living in isolated valleys who were able to
preserve their pagan ways until 1896. Some of them in two valleys
that were on the British side, remained pagan. However they too have
converted and a few hundred remain. Pakistan government has permitted
missionaries to work among them. Pakistan government has also
encouraged the Greek theory."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 02:56
The Kalasha have nothing to do with hinduism.  Not all pre-Islamic peoples who believed in dieties or pagans were hindu in Pakistan.  I dont know why people tend to make this generalization!  Its very frustrating at times and needs to be clarified.  The inhabitants of Pakistan, before the arrival of Islam followed a plethora of different religions/beliefs with Buddhism being the most significant, but also Zorastrianism, Shamanism, Deity worship and nature worship.
 
In Northern Pakistan, Animism and Shamanism were predominant and still exist to this day.  The Kalasha worship a number of dieties quite distinct from those worshipped in other polytheistic cultures and religion.  The closest similarities found with the Kalasha dieties have been with those of Ancient Greece but many other's are entirely specific only to the Kalasha themselves.
 
Also, the Greek government initially carried out several surveys throughout the region and it was they who ''confirmed'' the statement that the Kalasha are ''genuinely'' of Greek/Macedonian/Ionian origin after carrying out other similar surverys in other parts of the area.  They correlated this with several ancient artifacts and customs unique to the ancient inhabitants of their country, including lost customs which were still known to them.
 
The Kalasha tribes are invited every year to attend Hellenic festivals in Athens, all paid for and subsidized by the Greek Government.  They have helped to develop the area, build schools and assisted the Government of Pakistan in developing the region with financial aid and otherwise. 
 
While I too believe that with the subsequent merger of PAKISTAN into the Hellenic /Greek Empire. Pakistan was the Easternmost satrap of the Greek Empire with the Hellenic kingdoms easternmost outpost established at Sagala (modern day Sialkot in North East Pakistan) and knowing that Alexander turned back and didnt go any further east of modern day Pakistan but sailed down the modern day nations Indus river on his way back home.  Many Greeks/Macedonian's had simply decided to stay on, having travelled so extensively for years and were absorbed into Pakistan's local population and such their genetic imprint would technically be present in those areas we could correlate with regions they passed through on their arrival to Pakistan.  Fortunately, the Greeks made extensive maps and recorded all their movements which have allowed us to properly correlate where and when they went somewhere.  It is because of these maps that we now know, and have corrected the misnomer, that ancient Greeks had travelled to India,  which is incorrect, as according their own maps and accounts, they reached the trans-indus region and established their outpost at Sialkot.  So much can be glimpsed into the account of their period.
 
The following regions of Pakistan are of noteworthy significance:
 
The Khyber Pass (inhabited by the Afridi Tribe) - It should be noted, that the Afridi tribes living in the Pass look distinct from their clansmen who are also ''Afridi'' but live in the 'Tirah' region and have an oral tradition whereby they ''allowed'' and gave permission to Alexander and his troops/convoy to pass through and that a mass marriage was held in a grand ceremony between the tribe and Alexander's large convoy.
 
Bajaur (Pakistan) - One section of Alexander's forces headed north through Bajaur and established/founded the city of Nawagai in modern day Pakistan, again the people of Bajaur are said to have a peculiar characteristics quite in distinction to other Pashtun tribes surrounding them.
 
Chitral - Several of Alexander's troops headed north and decided to settle down, having travelled so far from home.  They are believed to have settled several valleys in the Chitral district of Pakistan as well as valleys in todays Nuristan region of Afghanistan.  other northern region of Pakistan include parts of Gilgit, Swat and Kohistan of Pakistan.  (most of these areas were ''cut off'' from the rest of the world until about a century ago)
 
Taxilla - We know that a ceremony and an alliance was formed in this ancient city about a half hour drive from Pakistan's capital of Islamabad.  Again, the city was populated with Greek Artisans and teachers, much of the old city was designed on a classical Greek Urban plan and exists to this day.  The pottery tradition still exists to this day for which taxilla is very famour for.
 
Jhelum - Here we know of the famous battle against King Porus.  In Pakistan today, the people(s) of Jhelum are said to have 'yu-nani ru'' which roughly translates to Ionian like Features (faces).  Again local tradition states that Alexander held a mass marriage around the city.  Alexander's famed horse, Bucephalus, is burried outside the city.
 
Sialkot (Sagala) - After Alexanders troops refused to go any further, the Greeks/Macedonians established their easternmost outpost here on and again held a mass marriage with locals of Sialkot. 
 
Multan (Alexandria) - Here, on travelling down the Indus Alexander was almost fatally struck.  The city was rebuilt, again a mass marriage was held and renamed Alexandria.
 
Thatta, Sindh - Another ALexandria, same scenerio as before
 
Bhambore, Sindh - from where his fleet ships sailed back while the other half of the army took the desert through Pakistan's wild Balochistan province.
 
The reason I went into a bit of detail here is, that I think that we need to do a genetic imprints from people who live in and around these cities as they would, if anything, show us how much of genetic impact the greeks had.  Also, similar studies could be done along other known paths taken by them in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.  Such a study, would truly be interesting and help us to better understand the impact of foreign genes on local populations.
 
I wanted to add a photograph which shows the similiarities in the attire of Kalasha women of Pakistan with those worn by Macedonians.  but for some reason its not letting me attach it.. hmmmm... help anyone!??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 02:59
 
never mind.. I got it to upload.  I dont know about you. but their is a striking similarity to be found. 
 
The photo on top is of Macedonians Northern Greece, and the one on the bottom is from Northern Pakistan.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 17:09
My theory is that some officer of the Bactrian kingdom got some land in the are and settled alongside with some Greek soldiers. They intermarried with locals, telling their stories of Alexander the Great and after a few centuries the tribe would remember their "Greek ancestors" who were probably less than 100 but enough to make this a memorable event.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 17:45

Forget theorys. Read history. After Alexander there was a lot of Greek settlement in what is now Pakistan. For example from 190 BC the Bactrian Greek capital was Taxila.

 
 
 
Indo-Greek Kingdom
 
Most likely it is these Kingdoms whose history is remembered.
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 18:18
I already know this. Still they would remember the Indo-Greek kingdom but not that they were Greeks themselves. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 18:29

One thing that this country dose not lack (along with mountains lol) is theorys of desent of every ethnic group. Quite a lot of Seriaikis claim desent from various Persian Emperor, everyone is a decendeant of the Prophet, and our founder Jinnah, he had one child, but apparently half of Sindh is somehow related to him.

 
So I give this theory little weight.
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 18:36
Lol, I am not going to post it in an academic conference or anything, just what I imagined could have happened for these people to regard themselves descendants of Alexander's soldiers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 19:26
They don't. About 1840's as the British moved into this area they noticed the people were well how do you put this delicatly, different from what they had confronted thus far. Taller, fair skinned, more "european features". So they theroised that these were some long lost decendants of Alexander the Greats soldiers. This was bunk and later British expeditions showed the area was heavily Hellanized. Indeed Ashoka was part Greek, and Greek was one of the languages of his court.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:23
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

They don't. 


They do. Didn't you read the rest of the thread? I have also watched a documentary where they ask the reporter to send Greek books and wanted a 100 drachma coin because it had Alexander's image.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:29
Read the thread. Been to the region in question. Half the time these things are for tourists.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:57
Originally posted by Killabee Killabee wrote:

There are more ancient Greek gene in Turkish and Levant Arab's blood.


Maybe it's the other way around, who knows? Your statement is an opinion not a fact..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 11:30
Disapprove
Sorry Kafkas my Greek brother but Greeks are heavily intermixed with all eastern Mediterranean peoples. I don't think ancient Turks have done too much intermixing with the Ionians - but modern Turks certainly have.

Personally, I would be far more surprised if there wasn't any Greek villages in Pakistan than the fact that there are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 11:18
Originally posted by MarcoPolo MarcoPolo wrote:

 
never mind.. I got it to upload.  I dont know about you. but their is a striking similarity to be found. 
 
The photo on top is of Macedonians Northern Greece, and the one on the bottom is from Northern Pakistan.
 
 


Indeed, I recognise this. The dresses are those which are common in places like Kozani, Grevena and northern Chalkidiki. However, I don't think that was the fashion of the people back then. If it was then we should definetely see those typical ancient Greek hats as well. That's why i'm troubled. I'm sure one could find similar dresses in other places.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 11:26
Btw Guys, the Kalash, Pathans and Burusho are not the only cases...There are people in Sudan who have the same myth and speak of the Greek with the horns. They even keep the last 100 drachmas coin (depicting Alexander) as a talisman. I'll try to find some info on them too and see if there is any similarities to the myths of the Pakistan tribes.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 11:35
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

I already know this. Still they would remember the Indo-Greek kingdom but not that they were Greeks themselves. 


Well the first generation of Kings were 50%-50%. The second eather married a local or a Greek, but probably their Greek line vanished with time. The honouring descriptions of the Indo-Greek Kings however refer to them as "Χ τον Έλληνα και Φιλέλληνα..."/"X the Greek and patriot..." where X was the name of the King or General.

There is a whole report from Oxford University press called "The Greeks in Bactria and India". I will find it and post it when i get home.


Edited by Flipper - 14-May-2008 at 11:35


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