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Forum LockedGreek ancestory of the Kailashis

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bilal_ali_2000 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek ancestory of the Kailashis
    Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 17:48
        It is often claimed by the Kailashis that they have Aelxanderonion Greek  about it. What do you think.

Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 18-Feb-2008 at 05:12
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Post Options Post Options   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 18:04
Bah...
But they themselves seem to believe it. A few weeks ago there was a greek documentary in the TV about the war in Afghanistan. The reporter interviewed both sides (us and the Taliban). While journeying around Afghanistan he found himself in one of these Kalash villages, where the villagers enthusiastically received him as a brother. They took him in their village, talked with him very openly, and asked him to deliver a request to motherland (Greece that is) to send aid and especially teachers. The reporter was very surprised, because though he knew all this theory about the Kalash'  Greek origin, he didn't believe that would ever get into the Kalash' beliefs ever. But it seems, as he noticed, that these God forsaken people, who live in great povery, remember that some strangers ever visited them, speaking to them about some 'glorious ancestors', and these people of course believed it and put a lot of faith in it.
If that's good or not I don't know. There is of course a chance for Greece to reach her tentacles as far as Afghanistan and Pakistan, but I don't think that would benefit Greece much. We could as a government however help these people with some aid, and especially with some teachers that they need so much, who would help them improve their lives.
(I got off-topic, so I stop hereEmbarrassed)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 22:36
Originally posted by xristar

Bah...
But they themselves seem to believe it. A few weeks ago there was a greek documentary in the TV about the war in Afghanistan. The reporter interviewed both sides (us and the Taliban). While journeying around Afghanistan he found himself in one of these Kalash villages, where the villagers enthusiastically received him as a brother. They took him in their village, talked with him very openly, and asked him to deliver a request to motherland (Greece that is) to send aid and especially teachers. The reporter was very surprised, because though he knew all this theory about the Kalash'  Greek origin, he didn't believe that would ever get into the Kalash' beliefs ever. But it seems, as he noticed, that these God forsaken people, who live in great povery, remember that some strangers ever visited them, speaking to them about some 'glorious ancestors', and these people of course believed it and put a lot of faith in it.
If that's good or not I don't know. There is of course a chance for Greece to reach her tentacles as far as Afghanistan and Pakistan, but I don't think that would benefit Greece much. We could as a government however help these people with some aid, and especially with some teachers that they need so much, who would help them improve their lives.
(I got off-topic, so I stop hereEmbarrassed)
 
           Yes i also don't  believe it one bit. Their language Brushuski is a language isolate meaning it is non-Aryan let alone having any relation to Greek. Genetics has confirmed that the Kailashis are an aborignal people having little Greek ancestory.
 
         In a program Gulls and Guys that the visitor to Greece said that he found no relation between the Kailashi and Greek culture.
       
 
However i think that Greece also thinks that the Kailashis are related to them as it is sponsoring Schools in that region.
 
            My opinion is that because of the legnedary status of Alexander these people want to associate themself with him. And it must be noted that Alexander did confronted these people in his campaign on Afghanistan and from there this myth started, but as with most of these myths which attribute the whole genealogy of a tribe to a single patriarch it i think is false.  
 
 
   And about teachers. I think that the role of education genrally is very overrated. Almost all of the things which they need for their survival as well that which are of worth any knowing to them would be taught to them by their elders. And if what their lives are likely to take shape they will have little use for Newton's Second Law of motion and the ideas of Karl Marx.
 
   However if the government of Pakistan should create a proper education system in that part and would pick the best students from among them and give scholarships so these people so they can have successful lives and work for the uplift of their people back home, then there would definetly be some improvement there.
 
       And i remember a Kailashi woman civilian aviation pilot being interviewed on TV. So they definetly have some potential.
 
        Indo Aryan languages also show some Brushuski features meaning that the link between them goes quite far back.  
 
 
       And i really think that the Kailashis should stop believing this false identity  


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 04-Feb-2008 at 23:23
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 13:17
I don't believe they have any greek origins either. Regardless of that, some kind of bond between them and Greece has been created and if this can be used to trigger support from Greece to them, in terms of founding, education and other kind of aid, then so much for the better and Greece should continue efforts to improve the lives of these people. Even if this is based on a false identity case.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 08:07
Originally posted by Yiannis

I don't believe they have any greek origins either. Regardless of that, some kind of bond between them and Greece has been created and if this can be used to trigger support from Greece to them, in terms of founding, education and other kind of aid, then so much for the better and Greece should continue efforts to improve the lives of these people. Even if this is based on a false identity case.
 
 
 
 
       It is not the Greek but the Pakistani government which should be working for their uplift. I think that it has to be said that the Pakistani Government track record for the uplift of the people of the Himalayas is very poor.   
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 15:54

The Pakistani country is a clown of a nationstate. Neither do they know how to manage a nation, nor do they know how to live amongst each other in peace.

What they do know is how to kill, debauchery, terrorism, cheating, lying, and language and caste-based racism. To expect such responsibility from the Pakistani government makes you a fool.



Edited by Mughaal - 06-Feb-2008 at 15:56
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 11:12
Mughal kindly do not use that tone again. I can't ask you to change to substance of your opinions, but as to the form and I can and will.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

           Yes i also don't  believe it one bit. Their language Brushuski is a language isolate meaning it is non-Aryan let alone having any relation to Greek. Genetics has confirmed that the Kailashis are an aborignal people having little Greek ancestory.


I have the report in PDF from the European Journal of Human Genetics (2006).  In the intro it says the following:

Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers associated with Alexander’s invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution. We have now typed 90 binary polymorphisms and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci mapping to the male-specific portion of the human Y chromosome in 952 males, including 77 Greeks in order to re-investigate this question. In pairwise comparisons between the Greeks and the three Pakistani populations using genetic distance measures sensitive to recent events, the lowest distances were observed between the Greeks and the Pathans. Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype,
determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants, this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.

In other words, like you said, they're not descendands, but sure there is a small Greek contribution for sure. In order to note a strong genetical effect on populations, you may need thousands of years of co-existance. In the case of the Greeks we can't speak of massive populations coexisting with the locals.


Edited by Flipper - 07-Feb-2008 at 16:56


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:09
There doesnt seem to be a genetic link between the Greeks and Kalash, but there is one between the Greeks and Pathans:

Link:
Greek origins of some Pathans but not other Pakistanis



Edited by Tyranos - 07-Feb-2008 at 18:10
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:20

There were lots of Greek settlements in that general area, basically from Kabul ti what is now Islamabad after old Alex showed up. So some admixture is not unexpected.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scaevola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 15:52
What about Northeast India, and Panjab? Isn't that where Porus was defeated by Alexander? People from the state of Panjab often have a lighter complexion than most indians, is this due to some Greek influence as well as possible Aryan heritage?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 21:20
I know what region you talk about, but there's no record so far about such an assumption. To be honest i don't believe that the Greeks were many enough to influence larger populations. Seriously, it may take over 1 or 2 millenias to alienate a dominating population. You have for sure some people around the area that might have some kind of descend but i don't believe in larger groups or areas.

Another voice however, would question how Greek communities were established and survived in other Asian or Caucasian countries  (Georgia and Uzbekistan for example), but those were still closer both to Greece and Persia (which was probably the most popular post after Egypt for the Greeks of that time).


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 19:48
I am sure such communities and contact wouldve still flourished well into Roman times, with some fresh migrants possibly.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 20:10
Originally posted by Scaevola

What about Northeast India, and Panjab? Isn't that where Porus was defeated by Alexander? People from the state of Panjab often have a lighter complexion than most indians, is this due to some Greek influence as well as possible Aryan heritage?
 
No. that is not true,  The Greeks only penetrated into parts of Pakistani Panjab and did not settle or enter into any regions of where the modern day-republic of india currently is. 
 
King Porus was the ruler of Jhelum, a city near the Pakistani capital in North Western Pakistani Panjab.  The Greeks had their furthest military outpost near Sagala (modern day Sialkot) in Pakistan hence the reason why many modern historians are realists state that the Greeks interacted and intermarried only with the inhabitants of modern day Pakistan and Afghanistan. 
 
Infact the Greek empires in Afghanistan and more specifically Pakistan had borders reflecting more or less the current border between the Pakistan and india today.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 20:18
The supposed ancestry of the Kalash and neighbooring Nuristani in Afghanistan is not completely confirmed, much more research will have to be done in this regard.  Some researchers have suggested that one regiment of Alexander's army decided to settle the Chitral district of Pakistan but was made up of Macedonian and or perhaps Other ''greek'' peoples which may alter the gene pool we should be doing the comparison with.
 
What is known, is that in the Chitral valleys where the Kalasha live, the government of Greece has already established several schools and training programs for the Kalasha, and have, by defacto, accepted the Kalasha as their own.
 
Infact, the Kalash tribes participate in the annual hellenic ceremony held in Athens and are flown there for 2 weeks sponsored by the Greek government.  Additionnaly, many Greek visitors visit Pakistan and the many ancient Greek sites/settlements throughout the country (Jhelum, Bhambore, Taxilla, Chitral, Swat etc..) and the Pakistani government hopes that when the security situation improves, that more tourists will come.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 05:11
   Some rather interesting facts
 
-Link-
 
-Excerpts-
Blue eyes, fair skins and blonde or reddish hair were said to be commonplace amongst all the Dards. With feature that were nothing if not European, was it possible that here were the long lost descendants of the Greeks who had crossed Asia with Alexander the Great? Or, since even Alexander's day there were reports of a similar people, were they perhaps remnants of the original Aryan race from which all the Indo-European peoples were descended
  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 07:05
The Greeks themselves are not even Blond and blue eyes. How can their descendant be blond and blue eye like many Kalashi?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 07:12
There are more ancient Greek gene in Turkish and Levant Arab's blood. I don't remember them being proud of the having any association with Alexander.

Maybe The Kalashi should stop fantasizing with something that is not scientifically proven and be proud of who they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 07:49
Originally posted by Killabee

There are more ancient Greek gene in Turkish and Levant Arab's blood. I don't remember them being proud of the having any association with Alexander.

Maybe The Kalashi should stop fantasizing with something that is not scientifically proven and be proud of who they are.
 
    Yes i had thought of that before. When i hear many western tavelleres make the comment that the people in the Himalayas, remember that not just the Kailashis but among all people in the himalayas blue eyes and red, blond hair are common, are nordic and that may be because of Alexander and i thought that yeah as if Greeks are a nordic people. Another Norhern European made a comment gloating that how the people of the mid-east were beaten by Nordic Greeks and i remember saying , "Yeah right, Nordic Greeks". Why don't they take a look at the 2D depictions of Greeks to see how Nordic they were.  
    It seems strange that whenever anywhere light hair and light eyes occur these northern europeans think that they had been there, forget bothering with history which records no such movement but apparently the northern Europeans desperate for some antiquity try to find Northern European contribution in everything of anything of any worth. In the million of lines of ancient Indian literature the Brahmins are explicitly described as black haired and many times dark skinned but they just take one reference form Pannini who lived in the Peshawar valley and hence of course had seen brown and blone hair and override everything else by saying that all the ancient brahmins were all blue eyed and blond haired. Hmph why don't they take a look at the Australian Aboriginals, blonde hair are common among them yet do Northern Europeans call them Nordic.    
     And it has not only been not scientifically proven that the Kailashis don't have Greek blood but actually scientfically disproven.
 


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 03-Mar-2008 at 07:52
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 08:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEXnEfdvv6s
          Interesting here that the Greek guy was saying that the Kalashas building techniques were all similar to Greek style and they were building in the traditional Kalasha style but the Kalashan teahcer said that the Greeks were buidling their own and not the kalasha style, and that the Greeks should keep pass of the life style of the Kalasha people. He also says that the Kalasha themselves don't beileve in the Greek connection and go along with it just to attract Greek monetary support.
 
        I think that it about time that the Pakistani governement put a stop to this non sense and tell the Greek governement not to try to create Greek colonies in Pakistan.
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