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Forum LockedGravity sucks! Well, actually the opposite, it pushes...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gravity sucks! Well, actually the opposite, it pushes...
    Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 11:53

Found this article. Interesting and fun reading.

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Gravity. Is it really a pulling force?

János Rohán, Szeged, Hungary

What is the evidence that gravity is a pulling force? Nothing. Nothing at all. (Im asking experimental or any other STRONG evidence which prove the pulling nature of Gravity.)

Did you know a better evidence?


An apple falls to the ground. Therefore, it is stated, the Earth pullsSir Isac Newton: The Universal law of Gravitation ..... the apple. And with that the evidence is exhausted.


The basis of the experimental verification is the fact that all attempts to demonstrate gravity push have failed.

However, the apple will likewise fall if the force does not pull it down, but pushes it down.

To satisfy this latter condition, we need the assumption that space is not empty, but is filled with gravity. This does not seem such a fantastic idea today if we remember that cosmologists recently presumed that the Universe is filled with dark energy Composition of the Universe. Source Ann Feild, STSCI
 (66%), which is around double the sum of the visible matter (4%) and the similarly presumed dark matter (30%).

It is obvious that the Universe is filled with electromagnetic radiation, and the (vacuum) space is assumed to be filled with Higgs bosons Bosons are particles which form totally-symmetric composite quantum states. The spin-statistics theorem states that bosons have integer spin. Bosons are the only particles which can occupy the same state as one another. All elementary particles are either bosons or fermions.

Gauge bosons are elementary particles which act as the carriers of the fundamental forces:
photons (probably NOT an elementary particle, mediates the electromagnetic force),
gluons (mediates the strong nuclear force),
W-and Z bosons (mediates the weak nuclear force)

There is a fourth kind of gauge boson, the graviton, which has been postulated as the carrier of the gravitational FORCE.  too. It is also filled with neutrinos.

Numerous problems of cosmologists would be solved if gravity were not regarded as a pulling force. The idea of pushing gravity is not a recent one: it reaches back as far as Georges-Louis Le Sage (1724-1803). If gravity is a pushing force, mass will not emit, but absorb gravitational waves.

1. Let us consider the recently discovered accelerating movement of distant galaxies. With pulling gravity, this seems impossible to explain, but if we consider gravity as a property of space, which would like to compress everything, the accelerating movement become logical as this compressing force would remain unresisted at the edge of the Universe: no pushing force acts from outside, so the pushing force of the Universe will accelerate the most outlying galaxies. No assumption of any antigravitational effect is necessary.

2. The problem of singularity, which arises only with the pulling gravity model, will also be avoidable. Let us consider the Earth, for example. As an object moves closer to the Earth, the gravitational force becomes higher. This is true as long as the Earth is regarded as a point. However, the Earth is not a point. In theory, the object can pass below the surface, towards the centre of the Earth. The cause of the gravitational force is not a single point, but the whole mass of the Earth, which at the centre is in equilibrium, so no gravitational force is acting at the centre of the Earth.

According to the pulling gravity model, the density at the centre of a black hole would become infinite and the mathematical consequence would be singularity. It appears more logical, therefore, that the pulling force does not become infinite by large as we go toward the centre of a black hole, but, on the contrary, decreases. Moreover, with the pushing gravity model, there is no need for the singularity concept, because the pressure at the centre of a black hole depends on the nearly constant gravitational field of the Universe, so gravity does not increase infinitely. (If it is presumed that gravity is totally absorbed on passing through the mass of a black hole, the pressures at the centre of a small

Not a proton size!!! Minimal mass of a black hole is at least 1.4 Sun and a huge black hole should be the same.)

3. With the push­ing gravity model, the mystery would be solved of why no matter or radiation can leave the event horizon of a black hole, but all kinds of matter can still be pulled in. How can any force come out if nothing can come out? This problem would not arise with the pushing gravity model, because gravity then streams inwards, and the force is also directed inwards.

4. It could similarly solve the mystery of why the larger planets emit considerably more heat than they receive from the Sun. The surplus energy emitted should be generated by the planets themselves, but radioactivity or heating by tidal forces do not seem to offer sufficient explanation of the excess heat radiation. It appears simpler to conceive that the planets probably gain their surplus energy by the absorption of gravitational radiation.

5. The same logic could easily explain why astronomers have not found white dwarfs cooler than 3400 K. They can not cool more because they receive a constant energy supply by absorbing gravitational radiation. The temperature of neutron stars should be higher in consequence of their greater mass.

Cosmologists state that 13 Gyears was not sufficient for the white dwarfs to cool down.

The problem is that the Universe must be at least twice as old as this: if we really see galaxies at a distance of 13 Glightyears and if the Universe was formed by a Big Bang (both statements are widely accepted), at least 13 Gyears should have passed for the galaxy to take up the position where the light was emitted. The photons then travelled for a further 13 Gyears towards the Earth, where the Hubble Space Telescope captured this ancient light. Consequently, the Universe is at least 26 Gyears old.

6. To return to heat emission, we usually do not put the question of why the Earth has not cooled down Volcano Kilauea, Hawaii

Earth liquid nucleus should shrink as it cool down..

We could not observe this shrinkage, the earthcrust is full up..
..... Click the link for photo  yet. 4-5 Gyears was not enough for the cooling process, and moreover the mass of the Earth is increasing             Expanding Earth with unexplainable speed (considering the mass and energy coming from the Sun, as well as falling cosmic materials, meteors, etc.). Nevertheless, with the emission of gravitons, the Earth should lose energy...

7. During the star formation process, cosmic gas clouds contract and heat up. But where does the energy originate from? The heat generation can be explained if, for example, the external gravitational field performs work on the nebula. It is true that, when we compress a gas, its temperature increases, but in that case we supply energy from outside, as when a bicycle pump warms up when we use it. If we do not exert pressure on it, it will never warm up.

Another perspective: in an otherwise empty vacuum, we cannot imagine what would drive atoms.

8. An impossible property of the graviton, the negative impulse, is similarly solved.
Let us imagine that the Earth emits a graviton towards the Moon. This graviton travels 400 000 km through empty space and hits the Moon.

Are we to expect that the graviton then pulls the Moon back?Yes, its possible, if the graviton is a crook headed rubber particle, catching the Moon, and pull it toward the Earth, like a fisherman... 

This kind of collision contradicts all known physical laws, nonsense indeed. Graviton, even if it is an energy package, particle or wave, should have negative mass, negative velocity or negative energy in the pulling gravity model. As all three properties are physical impossibility, this exclude the reason for existence of pulling gravity model alone. Therefore gravity exists in the vacuum space and pushes anything down to earth, because Earth absorbs some gravitational waves coming from beneath direction.

Thus, the pushing gravity model appears suitable to explain numerous observations, whereas the pulling gravity model is not.

 

http://bioch.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm



Edited by Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 16:09

Interesting article. Thanks, Paul

From what I can tell, it's fairly logical, and there are some scientists out there who believe in this model. I haven't been able to find any counterarguments on the net, but I'm should there must be some. Any physicists in the house?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:02

Don't mix them up!

Push, pull - sounds like classic mechanics.

Bosons, muons, fermions - ever grab a hold on one of it?

Sphere, line, elipsoid .... ever whenever anyone seen some of such things? Can anyone show me  a sphere? Or an electron (boson/hadron/lepton .........)?

*Schwartzschild geometry, no need for push and pull (though the math involved is far out of my reach).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:04
Gravity doesn't push or pull, it's the manifestation of curved space and time caused by a gravitational field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:19

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Gravity doesn't push or pull, it's the manifestation of curved space and time caused by a gravitational field.

What's a gravitational field?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:22
Very interesting article.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:30
Nice attempt to combine all physics topic - this so called Grand Unification Theory, or GUT.  Yet I don't see how momentum is conserved by claiming that gravity is a pushing force.
Grrr..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:46
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Gravity doesn't push or pull, it's the manifestation of curved space and time caused by a gravitational field.

What's a gravitational field?

It's the field produced by a massive object and is similiar to an electromagnetic field in that it has magnitude and direction at every point in space. I have no idea how they are produced.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 05:06
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Gravity doesn't push or pull, it's the manifestation of curved space and time caused by a gravitational field.

What's a gravitational field?

It's the field produced by a massive object and is similiar to an electromagnetic field in that it has magnitude and direction at every point in space. I have no idea how they are produced.

I'll rephrase the question: What's a gravitational field, a "puller" or a "pusher"?

Virtual mass creates "virtual gravitational field"?

When a nuclear reaction generates a pozitron does the electromagnetic and gravitational fields related to this new particle instataneously expand to the whole space?

If the pozitron collides with an electron and the result is total anihilation what happens to those fields?

I think it's obvious that mixing theories would have the result of scrambling the brain. Either use one theory or another. They are consistent, usually. For example, you can use Euclid or Riemann not Euclid and Riemann. If one uses two theories that do not share the same axioms and principles (in which case it would mean that in fact there is only a theory) then it would lead into inconsistent or "strange"conclusions.

Therefore, "push" and "pull" seems to me like classical mechanics. Since classical mechanics, although consistent, had been proven incomplete, I would not speak of "push" and "pull" in terms of science, but rather as usual words. I say "I'm watching TV" not "The sensitive cells of my retina, stimulated by photons generated through the elctromagnetic controlled bombardement with electrons, generated from an electric stimulated cathod, of a layer of mixed special metalic salts spread on a glass screen, are sending impulses to my optical cortex, impulses that mixed with ......... "

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 16:51

As far as I know under General Relativity a gravitational field niether pushes or pulls. It warps the space-time path of an object as it passes through the field.

One way to look at it is to imagine a bowling ball sitting on a mattress. It will depress the surface of the mattress around it. If you rolled a baseball across the mattress its path would be deflected by this depression. This is a simplified 3-D model of the effect. Under General Relativity there are seven dimensions: 3 dimensions of space + time + 3 hyperspace dimensions.

As for positron-electron anihilation, I'm not sure what happens to the fields.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 18:00

I have to re-read that with more quietness but my impression is that grav. forces in the center of earth are not in equilibrium but in maximum local tension.

This is because gravity doesn't pull or push but just atracts like damn magnets. So the masses from all angles converge on that point creating maximal grav. energy.

Also if the universe would push why would it push toward massive objects?

Finally gravity wouldn't then decreas with distance from Earth... yet it does.

...

There are better theories, I think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astrojan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 19:34

..my impression is that grav. forces in the center of earth are not in equilibrium but in maximum local tension

may you thinking again, what happen if two opposite force vector act eachother in one point ? How big force will try to move that point ?

What do you think, what happen if you would drill the Earth across, and drop to this well an iron ball?

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 21:17
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

When a nuclear reaction generates a pozitron does the electromagnetic and gravitational fields related to this new particle instataneously expand to the whole space?

No, both fields move outward at the speed of light. If the sun was to suddenly explode it would take about 8 minutes for the gravitational effects to be felt on earth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astrojan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 21:35

No, both fields move outward at the speed of light. If the sun was to suddenly explode it would take about 8 minutes for the gravitational effects to be felt on earth.

Why do you think grav effect spread at speed of light ? Did you mean Kopeikin measurement?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 02:09
Originally posted by Astrojan Astrojan wrote:

No, both fields move outward at the speed of light. If the sun was to suddenly explode it would take about 8 minutes for the gravitational effects to be felt on earth.

Why do you think grav effect spread at speed of light ? Did you mean Kopeikin measurement?

General Relativity assumes the effects of gravity propagate at the speed of light. Also if the speed of gravity propagation isn't equal to c it's a violation of special relativity.

The Fomalont/Kopeikin measurement confirmed the time delay and light bending predicted under General Relativity.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 02:41
Originally posted by Astrojan Astrojan wrote:

What do you think, what happen if you would drill the Earth across, and drop to this well an iron ball?

If it was in a vacumn it's speed would increase until it reached the earth's center. It would then decrease until it reached the surface at the opposite side where it would stop. It would then repeat this process and would do so indefinitely until acted apon by an outside force. 

If there was atmoshpere present the lose of velocity through drag would eventually leave the iron ball sitting at the earth's center.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 11:39

Hi Astrojan,

I just figured out that you're Janos Rohan the fellow that wrote the article, I'm a little slow I guess.

Interesting article, but I think the nature of gravity is explained under General Relativity.

Regards, Doug

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 12:16
Jan, what is wrong with the positron model of gravity? You say that the collision system is counter-intuitive, but how come the messenger particles of other forces are able to create a force of attraction?

Quote may you thinking again, what happen if two opposite force vector act eachother in one point ? How big force will try to move that point ?

What do you think, what happen if you would drill the Earth across, and drop to this well an iron ball?


If two vector opposite forces act on a point, then the forces would cancel each other out.

If you drill a hole across the earth and drop something in, it would oscillate from surface to the other surface in harmonic motion.



Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 12:55
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus Imperator Invictus wrote:

 

If you drill a hole across the earth and drop something in, it would oscillate from surface to the other surface in harmonic motion.

Basically what I said, but much more precisely.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 13:31
Originally posted by Astrojan Astrojan wrote:

..my impression is that grav. forces in the center of earth are not in equilibrium but in maximum local tension

may you thinking again, what happen if two opposite force vector act eachother in one point ? How big force will try to move that point ?

You're right. But still there's a lot of pressure in the center of Earth due to the gravitational attraction at all other points of the sphere.

Quote What do you think, what happen if you would drill the Earth across, and drop to this well an iron ball?

The ball would not resist... but, supposed we could fix that, the ball would go across towards New Zealand but won't reach the surface due to friction... it would be moving around forth and back till it would eventually stop at the center of earth.


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