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Forum LockedGotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic
    Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 08:13
I moved this post from this thread: Who were the black-headed nations? to here:
 
Gotvand is a village near the city of Dezful in the north Khuzestan province, this is its exact location: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/iran/map/m4303006/gotvand.html, there is almost a large percent of light-haired people (Mam-ruti, according to Mesopotamian texts) in this region, for example one of the most famous Iranian who was born in this village is Mohammad-Ali Ramin who has blonde hair.


Mohammad-Ali Ramin, Presidential Advisor
 
A Gotvandi woman in traditional Khuzestani dress:
 
 
A Dezfuli boy in traditional costume:
 
 
And this the location of ancient Gutium (land of Gutians):
 
 
As you see this is almost the same location of Gotvand and Dezful in the north of Khuzestan province of Iran, we know the only people who were called Mam-ruti (light-haired) in the Mesopotamian texts were Gutians and we see in some Babylonian inscriptions that they are called blonde-headed people, like this one:
 


Gotvand means land of Goti in Dezfuli language, of course Dezfuli is also an Iranian language but the pronunciation of the words differ from Iranian languages, they themselves believe that this is similar to English, something about Dezfuli language in Persian: http://www.dezonline.ir/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=582, for example Click Here, you can hear Dezfuli words and their Persian translation.
 
There are some linguistic books about Dezfuli/Gotvandi language in Persian, most of them talk about a non-Iranian origin of this language, for example there is a book titled "Dezfuli - English common origin words", you can read here that it was among top linguistic books of 2008 in Iran: http://www.ifriran.org/pdf/Bibliotheque/Nouvelles%20acquisitions%20iraniennes.pdf
 
NEJAT'ALI, Nosratollâh
Vâzhegân-e moshâbeh-e Dezfuli - Engelisi.- Qom : Nejâbat, 2007/1386.- 165 p.
 
 
 
It talks about numerous common origin words in these two languages, one of these words is Dezfuli Vand and English Land.
 
 
land (n.) Look up land at Dictionary.com
O.E. land, lond, "ground, soil," also "definite portion of the earth's surface, home region of a person or a people, territory marked by political boundaries," from P.Gmc. *landom (cf. O.N., O.Fris. Du., Ger., Goth. land), from PIE *lendh- "land, heath" (cf. O.Ir. land, Middle Welsh llan "an open space," Welsh llan "enclosure, church," Breton lann "heath," source of Fr. lande; O.C.S. ledina "waste land, heath," Czech lada "fallow land"). Etymological evidence and Goth. use indicates the original sense was "a definite portion of the earth's surface owned by an individual or home of a nation."


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 22-Apr-2009 at 19:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 19:39
I think Swastika could be originaly a Gutian symbol because the oldest ones have been found in this region.
 
 
The symbol has an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artifacts from Indo-European cultures such as the Indo-Aryans, Persians, Hittites, Slavs, Celts and Greeks, among others. The earliest consistent use of swastika motifs in the archaeological record date to the Neolithic. The symbol was found on a number of shards in the Khuzestan province of Iran and as part of the "Vinca script" of Neolithic Europe of the 5th millennium BC.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 15:15
I bought "Dezfuli - English common origin words", this book contains more than 5,000 Dezfuli/English common origin words, now I think some Persian words like Goda (God), Kian (King), ... could have Dezfuli/Gotvandi origin, one interesting word is Dezfuli Gudkhush which means "Temple", Hush means "House" in this language.
 
 
house Look up house at Dictionary.com
O.E. hus "dwelling, shelter, house," from P.Gmc. *khusan (cf. O.N., O.Fris. hus, Du. huis, Ger. Haus), of unknown origin, perhaps connected to the root of hide (v.). In Goth. only in gudhus "temple," lit. "god-house;" the usual word for "house" in Goth. being razn.

Another interesting word is Dezfuli Zherman which means "white race/people", the word "German" can be related to it.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 23-Apr-2009 at 15:23
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 16:49
Regarding to zherman, it can not be related to German word. Zher probably is the same as Zar (Zhar) which means gold or yellow in old Persian and other Iranic langauges. If you read shahname you may find many Zhar (gold) and sim (silver).Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 17:47

Really?? Could you give us some more information about that book and possibly give a short sample list of those COWs?? I'm interested in the subject of pseudo-linguistics so I would be really pleased. Thanks in advance.Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 17:55
I don't know about Dezfuli language but you are certainly right about Persian, Zharman can mean "yellow-headed or white people" in Persian, I haven't found Dezfuli word for "yellow" yet but "ger" means "green/grow" in this language.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 18:00

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There are some linguistic books about Dezfuli/Gotvandi language in Persian, most of them talk about a non-Iranian origin of this language, for example there is a book titled "Dezfuli - English common origin words", you can read here that it was among top linguistic books of 2008 in Iran: http://www.ifriran.org/pdf/Bibliotheque/Nouvelles%20acquisitions%20iraniennes.pdf

I can't see where it states it's among top linguistic books of 2008, in fact, it was published in 2007. It says, however, ''Nouvelles acquisitions iraniennes de la bibliothèque depuis avril 2008'', which according to my weak knowledge of French means ''new Iranian acquisitions of the library for April 2008'' (which makes perfect sense since it's a webpage of a library). But perhaps your knowledge of French is much better and the whole thing is some strange French idiom meaning ''the top Iranian books of 2008'', I really don't know.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 23-Apr-2009 at 18:01
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 21:45
I know almost nothing about French language, I read in the Persian websites that this book alongside other ones which have been mentioned in that French page are among top linguistic books of 2008 in Iran, so I thought it says the same thing. Anyway this book is similar to an alphabetic dictionary, for example some Dezfuli words which begin with the letter "G" are:
 
Gat "get"
Gatah "gate"
Geder "gather"
Ger "green,grow"
Gari "gray"
Geriva "grief"
Gal "girl"
Gelisan "glide"
Golnidan "glow"
Golume "gloom"
Gand "gaunt"
Gav "give"
Gir "gear"
Geiz "gaze"
...
 
Of course some of them are really similar to the Persians words, for example Persian Geda means "begger" or Gand means "ugly" but it seems these Dezfuli/Gotvandi words have almost the same origin of English words.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2009 at 18:45

Some Dezfuli words which begin with the letter "K":

Kak (Cake) {Of course "Kak" is one of the most famous sweetmeats of Iran from the ancient times, just search for "famous sweetmeat Iran": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=famous-sweetmeat+Iran }
Kot (Cut) { Persian Kutah means "short"}
Korpah (Crop)
Karossan (Cross)
Koromb (Crump)
Korna (Crown) { There is also an ancient region in Dezful named Kornasion: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kornasion }
Korong (Crank)
Korup (Group) { the Persian word is Goruh }
Kok (Quick)
Kalan (Clan) { Persian Kalantar means "elder, headman"}
Kalap (Clip)
Kolenjah (Cling)
Kolu (Clew)
Kali (Clay)
Kon (Can) { Kon in persian means "do" }
Kenj (Quench)
Kuf (Quaff) { Kuft in Persian means "eat/drink" }
Kul (Cool)
Kuku (Cook) { Kuku is also a very popular dish in Iran: http://www.irantour.org/Iran/food/Kuku.html)
Kis (Kiss)
...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2009 at 19:12

Is there any serious attempt to explain the phonological shifts and are the proto-language roots provided for each?? Or is it just other long list of pseudo-cognates without any explanation??

Just at first glance I can see it corresponds to Voltaire's statement - the vowels are ignored completely. It seems to be another of those magna opera to which a great deal of work went, but little linguistic knowledge. Moreover, I can see several loanwords there and a distant backborrowing, so I'm again confused if it wants to prove something like ''English are just Dezfuli slaves'' or it is just ''hey, that's funny, but we have no point otherwise''. I also suspect the word 'kul' to be a loanword from English, since it's widespread nowadays and many languages have borrowed it.

Could you provide me with some further information, particularly whether it be just a long pseudo-cognate list or it provide some further evidence. Thanks in advance.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 14:29
There is no claim in this book that Dezfuli is a Germanic language or English is Iranian, in fact Dezfuli is considered by some linguists to be just a Persian dialect but as I said we see the same Persian words are pronounced differently in Dezfuli, the reason can be that, unlike Modern Persian, stress is fixed on the first syllable of the word in this language/dialect.
Anyway I believe it is very difficult to talk about the phonological shifts in the Persian words, for example we know for sure there was no "L" sound neither in Avestan nor in Old Persian language but we can find this sound in a large number of Middle Persian words that most of them are similar to the Germanic words, like this one:
 
 
Proto-IE: *lap-; *lab- / *leb-

Nostratic etymology:

Meaning: lip

Other Iranian: MPers lap `Lippe'

Latin: labium/labeum, -Ä« n., labia f. `Lippe; Rand'; labrum, -Ä« n. `Lippe; Rand'

Russ. meaning: губа
 
What is your explaination about it? (I should mention here that in the Persian loanwords from other languages, we see "u", "i", "e" and other vowels are usually changed to "a", look at this thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=223 )


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 26-Apr-2009 at 14:46
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 17:09

One interesting word is "Nal", this word means "shoe, sandal, sock" in Arabic and especially "horseshoe" in Modern Persian, but its original meaning in Gotvandi is "Needle", the reason could be that from this word, there was the Middle Persian "Nalbandi" which means "Sandal making", this Middle Persian word can be found in Old Arabic -> Arabic-English Dictionary and some other languages, like Armenian, you probably know the famous tennis player David Nalbandian -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalbandian

The second part of the word is band "bind":
 
PIE *bhendh- "to bind."
Sanskrit bandhah "a tying, bandage," Avestan band- "to bind," Old Persian band "to bind," Gothic bandi "that which binds; Middle Irish bainna "bracelet."
Persian "Nalbandi" can be compared with Scandinavian "NÃ¥lbinding": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A5lebinding
 
>> literally "binding with a needle" or "needle-binding"
>> The oldest known samples of single-needle knitting include the color-patterned sandal socks of the Coptic Christians of Egypt.
>>  It is still used in Iran to make socks, and in parts of Scandinavia to make hats, gloves and other items that are very warm.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 29-Apr-2009 at 17:12
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 08:40

More Info about NÃ¥lbinding : http://www.geocities.com/sigridkitty/history.html

"NÃ¥lbinding is currently done in many places around the world although it is definitely beginning to die out in our 21st century. According to my sources it is still practiced in at least the following places: the mountainous regions of Central Asia;24 Persia, i.e. Lurestan and Iran;25 Sweden;26 Norway;27 Denmark (possibly); ..."

North of Khuzestan is Luristan, in fact geographically, mountainous region of Dezful is considered to be in Luristan, not in Khuzestan Plain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuzestan_Plain for this reason we see the famous Shevi waterfall of Dezful is among the tourist attractions of Luristan: http://wikitravel.org/en/Lorestan

Some pics of Shevi waterfall of Dezful:
 

General view:
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-Apr-2009 at 09:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 09:13

I just searched for the word "Luristan" in a famous book:

A History of art By Lawrence Gowing: http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=I5BUAAAAMAAJ&q=luristan&pgis=1

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 09:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I just searched for the word "Luristan" in a famous book:

A History of art By Lawrence Gowing: http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=I5BUAAAAMAAJ&q=luristan&pgis=1

Firstly, you should read the whole paragraph, including the last clause (no direct connection possible).

Secondly, he was an artist and writer. Claiming relation according to some similarities in art is too dangerous. For instance, let us look at music. Much of Chinese traditional music is build on a pentatonic scale which is practically the same as much of modern popular music is build on. That does not mean, however, that there is some relation between Chinese and those who use that type of pentatonic scale as a basis for their music, or just between the music traditions. No. Many such similarities can be drawn.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 10:30

Would someone please translate this Swedish article into English: http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1930talet/1934_239.pdf

 
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-Apr-2009 at 12:54
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 12:09
From a proto-IE word which meant "Horn", there are the names of some wind musical instruments like Roman Cornu in the Centum languages and Persian Sorna in the Satem languages, you can read here about Sorna: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorna that this is the main instrument of Luristan, so we see it is also called "Saz-e-Luri" (Luri musical instrument) in Persian too, the interesting thing is that Scandinavians also call it "Lur".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 12:31

Another interesting article: http://130.91.80.97:591/PDFs/49-1/Olofsson.pdf

Horse Sacrifice at Eketorp Fort, Sweden
by jan olofsson and egil josefson

You can find the answer of the question here:

The Scandinavians By Judith Jesch

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2009 at 07:52

I found something in English in that Swedish articles: http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1950talet/1954_257.pdf

SUMMARY

Birger Nerman: The Late Bronze Age
A First Swedish
During the late Bronze Age a fairly rapid development takes place, both quantitatively and qualitativcly, in the Mälar-Hjälmar district and in Gotland; the finds are still most numerous, however, in the soutlicrnmost parts of the Scandinavian cultural area. Each of the first-mentioned localitics creates its own special types, but at the same time there is evidence of a combined Central Swcden-Gotland cultural area.
The warm, dry climate and comparatively pcaceful conditions prevailing in the Bronze Age must have resulted in a large inerease in population, which in its turn must have sought an outlet in expansion. There are indeed signs of such activity having originated from South Seandinavia and from Central Sweden-Gotland.
If we confine ourselves to this latter expansion and first examine that originating in the Mälar valley, we find that the westerly Bronze Age culture in Finland, which is an offshoot of that in the Mälar valley, has extended further, individual finds of Scandinavian character from the late Bronze Age baving been found outside this area.
The expansion from the Mälar valley also affected areas in tlie neighbourhood and on this side of tlie great bend of the Volga. Here so-called Mälar valley axes have been found (e. g. Fig. 2) as well as an east Russian local form of this type (Fig. 4) and from here comes a tutulus (Fig. 5) derived from a Central Swedish prototype. These finds have been interpreted as proof of a Swedish settlement in these parts.
The Baltic countries exhibit both Central Swedish and Gotland elements during the late Bronze Age. During the early Bronze Age the Scandinavian elements are weak and restricted to Esthonia, but during the late Bronze Age they becomc much stronger. Among other things at least two Mälar valley axes (one shown in Fig. 3) have been discovered. But groups of graves of Scandinavian type are known from the late Bronze Age of the Baltic countries, although not from their early Bronze Age: from Esthonia low cairns or barrows of earth and stones (Fig. 6) with man's length cists (Fig. 7), usually containing skeletons but also with cremated remains, in which Scandinavian objects have been found (e. g. the pincette in Fig. 8 and the ring collar in Fig. 9, the latter a type from Central Sweden). For the period in question such skeleton graves are otherwise only known from Gotland. This colonization continued into the beginning of the Iron Age.
Further, there is a group of nine boat-shaped enclosures (e. g. Fig. 10) from the west coast of the Gulf of Riga, whose sbapes, grave sanctuaries and contents (clay vessels) reveal their origin from a Gotland colony. Certain non-Seandinavian features in the construction of some of the grave sanctuaries show that the colony bad gradually löst contact with the motherland.
But Seandinavia, primarily Gotland, also had connections further east.
This applies particularly to the Caucasus. The pin in Fig. 11 from Gotland is Imported from there (cf. Fig. 12). Caucasian influence can be detected in several objects: from per. 4 of the Bronze Age a tutulus with bird figure from Blekinge (see Fig. 13, cf. Fig. 14), from per. 5 a loop from Småland for instance (see Fig. 15, cf. Fig. 16), from per. 6 a pin from Halland for instance (see Fig. 19, cf. Fig. 20), from per. 1 of the Iron Age a pin from Gotland (see Fig. 17, cf. Fig. 18).
Influenccs are also observable from Luristan in west Persia, e. g. the bronze bowl in Fig. 21 from Västmanland from per. 5 (cf. Fig. 22).



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-May-2009 at 12:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 19:20
Something interesting about Goths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
 
Etymologically the oldest (300 BC) ethnonym for the Goths, "Guton-",[3] derives from the same root as that of the Gotlanders ("Gutar"): the Proto-Germanic *Gutaniz. Related, but not the same, is the Scandinavian tribal name Geat, from the Proto-Germanic *Gautoz (plural *Gautaz). Both *Gautoz and *Gutaniz are derived (specifically they are two ablaut grades) from the Proto-Germanic word *geutan, meaning "to pour".
 
You probably know some great Parthian kings named Gotarzes (Persian Gudarz), the interesting thing is that this is the name of an ancient region near Borujerd (Middle Persian Vorugard) in Luristan province too, some years ago in this thread: Origins of polish, I said:
 
Kashubi -> Kashian (Kassite) or Kashvad (One of descendants of Kaveh, founder of Gudarzian dynasty)
 
Gutarzian or Gudarzian was in fact a mythological dynasty of Greater Iranian tradition and folklore and you can read here about Kassites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites "The original homeland of the Kassites is obscure, but appears to have been located in the Zagros Mountains in Lorestan in Iran."
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