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Forum LockedGotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic
    Posted: 30-May-2009 at 14:10
Where did I say that Gotland was a desert island before the Gutian migration?!! What is your source about the people who lived on Gotland about 3100 BC (more than 5100 years ago)? I don't want to deny it, because the people could live everywhere from very ancient times, but were they a civilized people? Is there any city in Gotland from this period? Were they a Germanic-speaking people or non-Germanic?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 14:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I have some questions about Sweden, my first question is about Coat of Arms of Sweden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sweden.svg 
 

 
Was there any lion in Sweden?!
 
You can see the Kassite arm in this website: Cultural Heritage Luristan Website
 
 

 


The Danish arms sport elephants and  wyrms, which, since these don't live in Denmark, must mean that the Danes descend from Indians and Atlanteans.

I don't want to deny it, because the people could live everywhere from very ancient times, but were they a civilized people? Is there any city in Gotland from this period? Were they a Germanic-speaking people or non-Germanic?


You have no clue about the basic history of Gotland but still you know perfectly well -much better than anyone who actually studied the topic - that the Gotlanders descend from Persians?

The Gotlanders were Barbarians in the eyes of Europe until around 1000 AD. I guess that once and for all proofs that they can't be descendants of civilized Persians.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 30-May-2009 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 16:57
Styrbiorn, it seems that you know many things but you don't want to tell us! I have never talked about Persians in this thread and I believe there was absoultely no relation between ancient Gutians and Kassites of western Iran and Persians or even other Iranian-speaking peoples, as I said several times Iranian-speaking peoples themselves believed their original land was somewhere in the remote north and they have migrated to Iranian plateau and other regions in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe, of course there was certainly a strong cultural influence of the native people of Iran on the Iranian-speaking people after the migration, for example as I said in this thread about Old Norse Tyr and Gutian Tir/Tirigan, according to this book: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion.

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-May-2009 at 16:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 17:16
There was the Pitted Ware Culture, the Battle-Axe Culture, and the Funnelbeaker Culture all living in Scandinavia by 3100 BC.  There is also the Wielbark Culture and the culture found at Ajvide, Here is an article about birds and the burials found at Ajvide.  For more information of the Ajvide settlement(s) read here.  By the way I have mentioned Ajvide and the Wielbark Culture before in this thread, you must have missed it then.  As far as I can tell nobody in Europe at that time could be said to live in cities.  There's no way to know for sure what they spoke since no writing survives from that time in Scandinavia, one can only hypothesize.  What is your point, Cyrus?  Will you actually answer one of my questions for once?  How do you reconcile the fact that people have inhabited Gotland and Scandinavia since before 3100 BC?  If there was an invasion of people why is there no evidence of this invasion?  Please answer my questions!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 18:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Styrbiorn, it seems that you know many things but you don't want to tell us! I have never talked about Persians in this thread and I believe there was absoultely no relation between ancient Gutians and Kassites of western Iran and Persians or even other Iranian-speaking peoples, as I said several times Iranian-speaking peoples themselves believed their original land was somewhere in the remote north and they have migrated to Iranian plateau and other regions in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe, of course there was certainly a strong cultural influence of the native people of Iran on the Iranian-speaking people after the migration, for example as I said in this thread about Old Norse Tyr and Gutian Tir/Tirigan, according to this book: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion.

Sorry, I meant of course Gutians in my last post Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 18:24

Ok, as you read here about the Pitted Ware culture (ca 3200 BC– ca 2300 BC) in southern Scandinavia which was contemporary and overlapping with the agricultural Funnelbeaker culture, it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages and you can read here about the second one which was developed farming culture of southern Scandinavia, that "Little can be said about its ethnic or linguistic roots. In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, the culture is seen as non-Indo-European."

Therefore the original inhabitants of southern Scandinavia and Gotland were non-Indo-Europeans and spoke a Finno-Ugric language but Goths were an Indo-European people and if they didn't live there then they should have migrated from another land to this region, I didn't talk about any invasion, the migration could occur peacefully.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 01:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ok, as you read here about the Pitted Ware culture (ca 3200 BC– ca 2300 BC) in southern Scandinavia which was contemporary and overlapping with the agricultural Funnelbeaker culture, it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages

Again a misreading by you.  What the source says is:
Originally posted by Wikipedia

Its connections with the probably pre-Indo-European Funnelbeaker culture and the probably Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture are debated. As the language left no records, its linguistic affiliations are a mystery. It has been suggested that it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages and provided the unique linguistic features discussed in the Germanic substrate hypothesis.
As you can see the language left no records so there is no way anybody can say it is related to the FInno-Urgic languages with any certainty, as you seem to imply above.  Notice the word suggested, that should tell you that there is no certainty to the information that comes after it, in this case that the Pitted Ware Culture spoke a Finno-Urgic language.  You might also want to read the article on the Germanic Substrate hypothesis, the whole point of the hypothesis is to explain certain elements of the Germanic Languages that are not Indo-European.  
and you can read here about the second one which was developed farming culture of southern Scandinavia, that "Little can be said about its ethnic or linguistic roots. In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, the culture is seen as non-Indo-European."
The Kurgan hypothesis is just one hypothesis concerning who were the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European, the problem with these hypotheses in places like Scandinavia is that there is no evidence as to what languages were spoken by the people living in Scandinavia during the 3rd Millennium BC, so nothing can be said with any certainty.  There is a competing hypothesis called the Paleolithic Continuity Theory which argues a number of things as can be seen in the link.  When examining the archaeological evidence proponents note that there is a lack of evidence for a Indo-European Invasion.  About the historical reconstruction of this theory wikipedia says this:
Associated with the Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT) is the historical reconstruction proposed by Alinei, which suggests that Indo-European speakers were native in Europe since thepaleolithic. According to this reconstruction, the differentiation process of languages would have taken an extremely long time; by the end of the Ice Age the Indo-European language family had differentiated into proto Celtic/Italic/Germanic/Slavic/Baltic speakers occupying territories within or close to their traditional homelands. The rate of change accelerated when (Neolithic) social stratification and colonial wars began. Summarizing:[2]

  1. The colonial expansion of the Celts started much earlier than La Tene and proceeded (generally) from West to East, not vice versa.
  2. The Mesolithic cultures of Northern Europe are identified with already differentiated Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Uralic groups.
  3. Scandinavia was colonized by Germanic groups "only" after deglaciation, and was better able to preserve its original character in isolation. Germany, in contrast, suffered fragmentation as a result of the Neolithic appearance of the Linear Pottery culture, and developed a wealth of dialects.
  4. The prehistoric distribution of proto-languages akin to Italic was an important factor underlying the current distribution of Romance languages throughout Europe.
  5. The Slavic languages originated in the Balkans and became linked with the Neolithic expansion. This group would be especially identified by the Baden culture.[5]

The Paleolithic Continuity hypothesis reverses the Kurgan hypothesis and largely identifies the Indo-Europeans with Gimbutas' "Old Europe."[6] PCT reassigns the Kurgan culture (traditionally considered early Indo-European) to a people of predominantly mixed Uralic and Turkic stock. This hypothesis is supported by the tentative linguistic identification of Etruscans as a Uralic, proto-Hungarian people that had already undergone strong proto-Turkish influence in the third millennium BC,[5] when Pontic invasions would have brought this people to the Carpathian Basin. A subsequent migration of Urnfield culture signature around 1250 BC caused this ethnic group to expand south in a general movement of people, attested by the upheaval of the Sea Peoples and the overthrow of an earlier Italic substrate at the onset of the "Etruscan" Villanovan culture.[5]

So as you can see the Kurgan Hypothesis is not the only explanation as to who were the original speakers of Proto-Indo European.  PCT actually argues against the Kurgan Hypothesis and is an academically accepted alternative to the Kurgan hypothesis.

Therefore the original inhabitants of southern Scandinavia and Gotland were non-Indo-Europeans and spoke a Finno-Ugric language
As I have shown above you can't make this claim with any certainty or any high probability.  There are varying schools of thought on this subject and one school, PCT, argues that by this time (3100 BC) the people living in Scandinavia were already speaking a Proto-Germanic language, but since there is no attested language from these people no one will ever know for sure what they spoke.  
but Goths were an Indo-European people and if they didn't live there then they should have migrated from another land to this region, I didn't talk about any invasion, the migration could occur peacefully.
 An invasion doesn't have to be violent, it can simply be a migration, incoming, or spread of something to a certain place with the result usually being harmful to what is already at that place.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 04:00
About Proto-Germanic and the corresponding archaeological record wikipedia says this:
In one major[citation needed] theory of Andrev V Bell-Fialkov, Christopher Kaplonski, Wiliam B Mayer, Dean S Rugg, Rebeca W, Wendelken about Germanic origins, Indo-European speakers arrived on the plains of southern Sweden and Jutland, the center of the Urheimat or "original home" of the Germanic peoples, prior to the Nordic Bronze Age, which began about 4500 years ago. This is the only area where no pre-Germanic place names have been found.[3] The region was certainly populated before then; the lack of names must indicate an Indo-European settlement so ancient and dense that the previously assigned names were completely replaced. If archaeological horizons are at all indicative of shared language (not a straightforward assumption), the Indo-European speakers are to be identified with the much more widely ranged Cord-impressed ware or Battle-axe culture and possibly also with the preceding Funnel-necked beaker culture developing towards the end of the Neolithic culture of Western Europe.[4][5]
Proto-Germanic then evolved from the Indo-European spoken in the Urheimat region. The succession of archaeological horizons suggests that before their language differentiated into the individual Germanic branches the Proto-Germanic speakers lived in southern Scandinavia and along the coast from the Netherlands in the west to the Vistula in the east around 750 BC).[6]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 14:37
Would you please ignore the fictions and biased views and read what linguists say in that Wiki article about Proto-Germanic? You can read in "Linguistic definitions" section that linguistically Proto-Germanic is dated to the latter half of the first millennium BC
 
If in the third and second millennium bc the language left no records in Scandinavia and there is no way anybody can say it is related to the Finno-Urgic languages then it can be said about the relation with the Indo-European languages too, don't you think so?!
 
An invasion doesn't have to be violent, it can simply be a migration, incoming, or spread of something to a certain place with the result usually being harmful to what is already at that place.
You are right, as you read in this page of the book of "Social transformations in archaeology" By Kristian Kristiansen and Michael Rowlands, at about 1,000 BC changes in burial rites and in status display indicate some social events in Scandinavia.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 17:24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berig
 
Berig was according to Jordanes the king who led the Goths on three ships from Scandza (Scandinavia) to Gothiscandza (the Vistula Basin).[1] They settled and then attacked the Rugians who lived on the shore and drove them away from their homes, subsequently winning a battle against the Vandals. According to Jordanes, this happened around 1490 B.C.[2]
 
Wasn't he the same Kassite Burig/Burigas?
 
 
A war god of the Iranian Kassites. He conquered Babylonia in the 15th century BCE. Also known as Burigas.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 31-May-2009 at 17:24
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 15:21
Iranians and some other nations call Germany "Alman" (Names of Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany), as you read here, Kassite kings called themselves the king of Kassites, Padan, Alman and Guti, and you can read here the land of the Kassites, the Guti, Padan, and Alman lie on slopes of the eastern mountains (Zagros mountains).
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