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Forum LockedGotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 07:20
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=heal&searchmode=none
 
heal Look up heal at Dictionary.com
O.E. hælan "make whole, sound and well," from P.Gmc. *khailaz (cf. O.S. helian, O.N. heila, O.Fris. hela, Du. heelen, Ger. heilen), lit. "to make whole," which is also the source of O.E. hal (see health).

This is very interesting to read this book: Hittite Etymological Dictionary: Words beginning with H



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 28-May-2009 at 07:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 16:47
What's your point, Cyrus?  The excerpt from the etymological dictionary doesn't say anything about persian, kassite, mesopotamian, or any language like that so how does the word heal (hælan and hal [health]) help your argument?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 18:37
The books talks about some important linguistic relations between Hittite and Germanic languages, I think it is important to know that you believe Sweden was the original land of Indo-Europeans or an Indo-European people migrated to this land? If you believe the first one then we should first discuss about the possibility of this thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 19:08

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The books talks about some important linguistic relations between Hittite and Germanic languages,

Be exact, please.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I think it is important to know that you believe Sweden was the original land of Indo-Europeans or an Indo-European people migrated to this land? If you believe the first one then we should first discuss about the possibility of this thing.

Nobody here believes the former.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 28-May-2009 at 19:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The books talks about some important linguistic relations between Hittite and Germanic languages.
Where does this book say that?  What does it specifically say?  I'm not seeing them but then again there are many pages missing from the preview that you have linked.  
Quote I think it is important to know that you believe Sweden was the original land of Indo-Europeans or an Indo-European people migrated to this land? If you believe the first one then we should first discuss about the possibility of this thing.
Where did you get this impression?  I have not ever said that Indo-Europeans originated in Sweden, I said the Goths originated there; hence Indo-Europeans migrated there and developed and then migrated south.  Your not being able to figure this out from my posts shows me that you haven't really read what I have written.  

Edited by King John - 28-May-2009 at 19:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 19:55


A Kassite Torc of Luristan: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WYkK6RD5AINQRbJLQtFkWQ

There was a discussion about Torcs in this thread, Styrbiorn said there that "Torcs in Europe were used mainly by the Celts" and the oldest ones have been found in Britain and date back to around 1,000 BC, does it mean Celts invented Torcs in Britain? You can read here: The archaeology of Celtic art By Dennis William Harding, Luristan (Kassite) influence was one of the roots of early Celtic Art, as you read this book also talks about the influences, not trade, and says there should be some direct contacts between these peoples, like the Persian presence in the sixth and early fifth centuries (BC) in Thrace, Macedonia and the Black Sea regions, but how could these influences reach Britain in 1,000 BC?!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 20:22
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The books talks about some important linguistic relations between Hittite and Germanic languages.
Where does this book say that?  What does it specifically say?  I'm not seeing them but then again there are many pages missing from the preview that you have linked.  
Quote I think it is important to know that you believe Sweden was the original land of Indo-Europeans or an Indo-European people migrated to this land? If you believe the first one then we should first discuss about the possibility of this thing.
Where did you get this impression?  I have not ever said that Indo-Europeans originated in Sweden, I said the Goths originated there; hence Indo-Europeans migrated there and developed and then migrated south.  Your not being able to figure this out from my posts shows me that you haven't really read what I have written.  
You should read the book, I don't talk about some specific sentences, if you read it then you will see that Germanic is one the closest languages to Hittite, for example look at the Hittite word for eagle.
 
What is your reason that you say Goths originated in Sweden? Is there any source to prove it? It is clear there were some peoples in Sweden from very ancient times but is there any evidence to show Goths were among them? The more important question is that what is your definition of a "Goth"? Someone who speaks Gothic language (an Indo-European language) or someone who lives in Sweden (Gotland)?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 22:01
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The books talks about some important linguistic relations between Hittite and Germanic languages.
Where does this book say that?  What does it specifically say?  I'm not seeing them but then again there are many pages missing from the preview that you have linked.  
Quote I think it is important to know that you believe Sweden was the original land of Indo-Europeans or an Indo-European people migrated to this land? If you believe the first one then we should first discuss about the possibility of this thing.
Where did you get this impression?  I have not ever said that Indo-Europeans originated in Sweden, I said the Goths originated there; hence Indo-Europeans migrated there and developed and then migrated south.  Your not being able to figure this out from my posts shows me that you haven't really read what I have written.  
You should read the book, I don't talk about some specific sentences, if you read it then you will see that Germanic is one the closest languages to Hittite, for example look at the Hittite word for eagle.
Maybe your should read the book.  It states in multiple places connections to Indo-European languages not just Germanic ones for instance look at the Hittite word for oath.  Or in the case of eagle what about the connections to Old Church Slavic, Greek, Old Prussian, Lithuanian, Old Irish, Welsh, and Armenian surely these are not just Germanic languages.  If you prefer there is the Hittite word for zeal, which is placed in comparison with the Gk word.  Or what about the Hittite word for "young", this word is described as being cognate with Latin, Old English, Old Norse, Greek, Sanskrit, Old Church Slavic, Armenian.  The compiler states that these words all come from the Indo-European *g˘elbh the compiler goes on to say that "while a reular derivation of h (or hu) from an IE gutteral stop must be rejected , the etymon in question has variants which merit special consideration." You seem to miss the fact that the book places these words in a greater Indo-European context–that is showing how Hittite is related to the other Indo-European languages.  It seems to me that Greek, OCS, Arm, Skt, and Latin are pretty close to Hittite; I wonder what could cause this, oh wait no I don't, it's the fact that they are all Indo-European languages and therefore came from the same parent language (Indo-European for lack of a better name).
 
Quote What is your reason that you say Goths originated in Sweden? Is there any source to prove it? It is clear there were some peoples in Sweden from very ancient times but is there any evidence to show Goths were among them?
You really should do research before you ask a series of questions like these.  There are a number of books that place the origins of the Goths in Scandinavia one example would be the work of Peter Heather. In his book The Goths Heather talks about the impact of the Wielbark Culture, which is described as being brought to the Vistula area by the Goths.  Herwog Wolfram discusses this idea of a Scandinavian origin in his work History of the Goths unfortunately I can't give you a specific page number since that book is packed away right now as I am in the process of moving.
Quote The more important question is that what is your definition of a "Goth"? Someone who speaks Gothic language (an Indo-European language) or someone who lives in Sweden (Gotland)?!
My definition is somebody who spoke the Gothic language and/or was called a Goth by ancient sources.  Since we know that the Goths spoke a Germanic language and that that the Proto-Germanic people came south from Scandinavia, the Goths would then have to be a Germanic people with their origin in Scandinavia.  Furthermore if you buy the idea of the Wielbark Culture being connected to the Goths and spreading with them in first century AD, you would understand that the Goths were a culture of Scandinavian descent.  I know that there is just as much evidence for their homeland to not be in Scandinavia, but I think the evidence for it being there is stronger.

Beyond similar names and Indo-European words what is your evidence for your belief that the Goths came from the Middle East?  Similar tribal names are not evidence of migration nor is it evidence that one tribe came from another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 08:14
I have some questions about Sweden, my first question is about Coat of Arms of Sweden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sweden.svg 
 
 
Was there any lion in Sweden?!
 
You can see the Kassite arm in this website: Cultural Heritage Luristan Website
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 09:03
The second link won't load. The Swedish Coat of Arms has two-tailed lions in it, the Luristani one has a winged, single-tailed lion-like creature, perhaps a manticore?? What's your point?? Even if both had lions in them, so did many families/cities/states, so what?? Do you think one needs to be a descendant of some Iranian ''uebermensch'' to be able to depict a lion?? Isn't it a better explanation that lion is a well-known animal that happens to be symbol of strength and that's why it was so popular to have one of a coat of arms?? I would expect this from a school kid, not someone who claims to have a PhD in history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 15:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I have some questions about Sweden, my first question is about Coat of Arms of Sweden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sweden.svg 
 
 
Was there any lion in Sweden?!
 
You can see the Kassite arm in this website: Cultural Heritage Luristan Website
 
 
 
You clearly don't understand heraldry.  There doesn't need to be lions in Sweden for one to be used on the Coat of Arms of a family or country.  Scotland has a lion in its Coat of Arms, as did the Plantaganets, the Coat of Arms of England also has a lion in it, so does that of Denmark, and that of Estonia.  Lions don't have to live in the area to have one on a coat of arms.  Let's also note that the lions in the coat of arms of Sweden don't have wings like the beast in the image from Luristan, that's a big difference.

What is your point with the lions?  Heraldic symbols don't show that people who had lions or other non-indigenous animals on their crests were descended from people who came from an area where that animal lived.  In heraldry the Lion has a specific meaning (generally, strength, courage, bravery, ferocity, and valour) its use says nothing of descent from a person/people from an area where lions were indigenous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 17:58
The important point is that Germanic peoples themselves believed that they migrated from a southern region (Asgard) to the Northern Europe, more inf about Asgrad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard (As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Æsir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making a folk etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Æsir were "men of Asia", not gods, who moved from Asia to the north and some of which intermarried with the peoples already there. Snorri's interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.)


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 29-May-2009 at 17:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The important point is that Germanic peoples themselves believed that they migrated from a southern region (Asgard) to the Northern Europe, more inf about Asgrad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard (As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Æsir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making a folk etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Æsir were "men of Asia", not gods, who moved from Asia to the north and some of which intermarried with the peoples already there. Snorri's interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.)

This has already been discussed. You were proved wrong and you're wrong now. Why do you keep recycling refuted trash??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:31
Actually, Snorri suggests that Troy is the "mythical homeland" of the Æsir; this is also the homeland that Vergil gives to Rome, it is also the homeland of many European kingdoms that have no other connection to Troy other than it being mentioned in Chronicles.  You also fail to understand how medieval mythical origin theories work.  You also fail to understand what a folk etymology is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:33
What is the point of your posting about Asgard?  It doesn't help your case at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:35
This is not something that I myself believe but as as I said Germanic peoples themselves believed, do you want to say they believed wrong and there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands?!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:42

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

This is not something that I myself believe but as as I said Germanic peoples themselves believed, do you want to say they believed wrong and there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands?!!

Not Germanic peoples, one Christian who wanted to make a connection between Biblical stories and Germanic mythology. This is not found in earlier works. Yes, he believed wrong.

For a moment it seemed to me that you consider it as a sufficient evidence when a whole nation believes in something - are you serious?!

Yes, there was IE migration to Scandinavia, but not as Snorri describes it. I don't even know why I still bother...anyone knows?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:54
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

This is not something that I myself believe but as as I said Germanic peoples themselves believed, do you want to say they believed wrong and there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands?!!
Nobody has said that there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands, where do you get this rubbish?  Don't you realize that the Germanic people/language is an Indo-European language so of course there was a Indo-European migration to these lands.  It's like if you don't have anything of substance to say your come back with a question like this.  Did they really believe this or are you just buying into what Snorri says too much?  If you're buying into what Snorri says then you should know that he claims they (the Asgard) came from Troy (that seems to be reliable (sarcasm)).  By the way just because somebody believes something doesn't make it true, for instance I believe the NY Jets are the best Football (American) Team in the National Football League, the fact that the Pittsburgh Steelers won the Superbowl would argue differently.  As you can see the fact that people believe something doesn't make it true.  If believing something made that thing true then half of the nations of Europe would all be descended from the Trojans, Amerindians wouldn't go near places like geysers and Anasazi sites because of some fear, and Iraq would have had Weapons of Mass Destruction; just to name a few beliefs that are wrong but were/are still believed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 19:35

We are comparing the anceint people of a small region in the western Iran (Luristan) and the Swedish island of Gotland, according to Mesopotamian inscriptions we know the people who lived in this part of Iran were light-haired in the ancient times, something which is already a minority in Iran, unlike Sweden, this people were called "Got", again in the last 2,000 years they were a small miniority in Iran, unlike Sweden, this people created some great bronze objects, archaeologists have not found similar ones in Iran or even in Luristan from the later periods, unlike Sweden, this people believed in gods and other things that Persians and other peoples of Iran didn't believe, unlike the people of Sweden, there are several evidences which show there was a migration from this part of Iran to Sweden around 1200-1000 BC when this people lost their power in this region and there are some modern sources which confirm this fact but there are also people who can easily deny this fact!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 19:47
So they were totally different from the people who lived/live in Sweden according to your post.

You never answered my question about reconciling the fact that there were people living on Gotland as early as 3100 BC.  If the people you are talking about didn't arrive in Scandinavia until 1200-1000 BC where is the archaeological evidence showing this invasion?
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