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Forum LockedGlobalism

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Poll Question: Would you be in favor of a unified, global, state?
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15 [65.22%]
2 [8.70%]
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    Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 15:27
Originally posted by Voice of Reason

 
On that note, it brings to my mind the state of the world in the novel 1984 With nations like these not wanting to give up themselves, but some others willing, something like the 3 super-states that emerged in that scenario could somehow arise. With an "everlasting war" that really isn't for gaining ground, because each state has so much that it can indefinetaly sustain itself, but to use up the recources that the people make. Although i dont think that those who have tasted democracy (Europeans and Americans and others) would give it up for a totalitarian regime like the one in Oceana.
 


That's why it is not good one world government. Imagine what would happen if the whole world would be like the Oceania of 1984 (George Orwell), and no Eurasia ...maybe a "Winston" would help us?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 17:08
@Scaevola:

While I am skeptical of the idea, I also truly have an intense dislike for the very notion of a single, global government.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 17:30

The world is too big for a single Government, you can't conquer the world at least not now. This is a interesting concept but in my opinion, it's a little ahead of its time.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Donasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 03:31
Federalism and Republicanism will be key. Of course an oppressive government would never work.

Things that will allow the for a free world government would be the pre-mentioned polices but the internet would also allow for old barriers between humans (huge cultural differences, distance, language barrier) to disappear.

Granted these things will be a long time in coming but I do think that when they do humans will be better for it.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 03:41

Granted these things will be a long time in coming but I do think that when they do humans will be better for it.


Actually, by the time a one "Earth" culture becomes a reality, we will all ready have begun to develop outer space. Thus rather than humanity uniting into one "superculture" we'll more than likely splinter into thousands upon thousands of individual cultures, much like the Papuan isolates.


I am an Ohioan before I'm a Cleavlander, an American before I'm Ohioan, an Earthling before I'm an American.


See I'm a reversal of that, I'm a West Sider before I'm a Cincinnatian, a Cincinnatian before a Midwesterner. I also don't consider myself an "American" in any cultural sense (location-wise obviously), as I think it's like "White" too broad to be of any useful mention. I think diversity is the best thing the world has, since it allows for easy progress within the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 14:50
I"m also more like JanusRook, i'm a Minnesotan before i'm an American. An American before i'm a Earthling.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 15:01
Well, I am not "American" but Chilean. But I don't want to be ruled by alliens either LOL
 
A global state?

If the small, regional states, can't do the trick how come we should expect a mamut state 5 times the size of China would do better. Mega states will mean mega-corruption and widespread ineficiency.

Better solution? No state. Let's computer rule... States only benefit the ruling classes. Period.

 

 



Edited by pinguin - 01-Feb-2008 at 15:02
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 19:26
[QUOTE=Donasin]Federalism and Republicanism will be key. Of course an oppressive government would never work.
 
There is a quote (forget the maker) "You can make a throne out of bayonets but you can't sit on it for long.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:16
If the "UN" or and to a lesser extent... it's precusor "The League of Nations" is anything to go by, as far cooperation is concerned, then so called "United" Nations, i'm afraid too say... has proven to be as useless as the pre-world war days before it was created! It was a nice try, but has proven to be way too large to control, with way too many humans to corrupt any and all laws it has or tried to pass! That's also not too say, worthless when it comes too enforcing anything; Another league of nations of sorts!
 
Therefore... i say "No"!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:39
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, I am not "American" but Chilean. But I don't want to be ruled by alliens either LOL
 
A global state?

If the small, regional states, can't do the trick how come we should expect a mamut state 5 times the size of China would do better. Mega states will mean mega-corruption and widespread ineficiency.

Better solution? No state. Let's computer rule... States only benefit the ruling classes. Period.


I think Pinguin is closer to the idea of Globalism here. Why must we think of Globalism necessarily as it being a State? As we know from history we have seen that many governments simply serve the upper classes (or despots) while transmitting the pains of war and inequality to the masses under their control.

So for a more complete world "unification" to take place, it would mean the destruction of the myths and lies of history that have served to pit people against one another. This conveys the destruction of governments, structured religions, ideology, culture and even the belief of ethnic identity. Surely we are witnessing today the decay of many of these starting to take place, but others; such as ethnic identity will take longer to be disappear from human consciousness. In other words "Globalism", in this definition, is when everyone seems him/herself as everyone else with the same beliefs, thoughts, goals etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:54
Surely we are witnessing today the decay of many of these starting to take place, but others; such as ethnic identity will take longer to be disappear from human consciousness.


I would argue because ethnic identity is necessary to have in a person. It's just as important as religious identity, sexual identity and social identity. Without it we become less than human which is the antithesis of what we should be progressing towards. This is why I doubt that a one-world state that abolished these notions could work.

This is an entirely Marxist view of the world, that the only thing that divides is is how much power we have. That all human beings if left in a controlled environment would develop the same way. We are not robots that follow a set pattern, we need to develop ourselves and we do that by discovering our identities, to prevent that diminishes us in ways that are not good for anyone.

What needs to be taught is equality even with diversity, not equality by uniformity.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 05:13
Originally posted by JanusRook



I would argue because ethnic identity is necessary to have in a person. It's just as important as religious identity, sexual identity and social identity. Without it we become less than human which is the antithesis of what we should be progressing towards. This is why I doubt that a one-world state that abolished these notions could work.

This is an entirely Marxist view of the world, that the only thing that divides is is how much power we have. That all human beings if left in a controlled environment would develop the same way. We are not robots that follow a set pattern, we need to develop ourselves and we do that by discovering our identities, to prevent that diminishes us in ways that are not good for anyone.

What needs to be taught is equality even with diversity, not equality by uniformity.


I'm not sure if you understood what I meant by ethnic identity, namely a set of specific similar genes coupled with a common language and set of traditions that identifies people of that society with one another . A lot of ethnic identity groups have formed nations while plenty of others struggle or lead a peaceful coexistence under government composed of other (majority) groups.
I disagree that not having an ethnic identity makes us less human. A prime example of this is American society. Jewish-American, Italian-American, Japanese-American are just some of the groups that claim to be so in American society. But with enough passage of time the groups will not refer to themselves as such. Due to the loss of the mother language and mixing amongst other groups but also through enculturalisation many people have lost such affiliations in America. Race is another issue altogether because being black or white is far more visible to the constituents of the population.

Like I said  ethnic identity will exist for a long time to come but under the unfettered personal monetary gain that market capitalism trumpets, it is weakening as immigrant groups cross national borders with impunity in search for better jobs elsewhere.





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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 02:55
But with enough passage of time the groups will not refer to themselves as such.


Actually I don't think that theory holds much credence because America does not continue it's assimilate it's citizens continually. They get assimilated until they are "American" enough and then are left to their own devices, many of my friends whose ancestors came to America in the 1860's-1880's have grandparents that consider themselves thoroughly American, while they themselves consider their heritage more Irish, German, Italian than American, even though the European heritages are themselves American constructs, they are still used as a certain type of ethnicity amongst the youth here in America.

Also it explains hostility to "recent" Mexican immigrants because they have not been assimilating quick enough and thus it creates a conflicting ethnicity between say Tejanos and illegals in SoCal, but that's another issue all together.

What I'm saying is is that ethnicities are not lost they are merely evolving as any other aspect of culture and to interfere with that evolution and to proclaim one "master race", (which is all "one-world culture" is since every other culture would obviously be inferior as why would we implement an inferior culture) is terrible wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 07:16
Originally posted by JanusRook


Also it explains hostility to "recent" Mexican immigrants because they have not been assimilating quick enough and thus it creates a conflicting ethnicity between say Tejanos and illegals in SoCal, but that's another issue all together.

What I'm saying is is that ethnicities are not lost they are merely evolving as any other aspect of culture and to interfere with that evolution and to proclaim one "master race", (which is all "one-world culture" is since every other culture would obviously be inferior as why would we implement an inferior culture) is terrible wrong.


Well I'm not saying it is completely lost either, but you can't deny that many people  have "forgotten" their original ethnic identity here in America.
Example, I remember my chemistry teacher back in high school telling us that she was Japanese, Armenian, Italian, Jewish-American. How many generations of her descendants will say this for the ethnic identity to have any real credibility? This is of course if they remember at all the ethniticies of their great-grandparents and grandmothers to begin with. America is heading into an uncertain future from this perspective alone because of the large heterogeneous population it has.

Nor am I saying that "one-world culture" is bound to happen anytime soon if at all. People will always develop micro-cultures that set them apart from one another: ethnic identity is one of the strongest biological attributes(after race) that makes this happen.

My point is that it might take 100 or 1000 years for all ethnicities to be mixed and disappear. Again, this is only if the current trend of monetary self-interest capitalism continues unchallanged for many years to come.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 08:27
@ Pinguin:

I'd rather be dead, or have one giant, corrupt, oppressive government run by humans than any government run by computers or AI.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 19:23
The bicameral legislature should be elected by popular vote. This would diminish it's potential to become oppressive. I believe that one of the weaknesses of the United Nations is its lack of popular support, people feel little connection to it. If they had a vote into its composition they would feel more personal involvement and loyalty toward it.
 
I like the theoretical idea, already proposed, of no government at all, of people forming their own associations for their own welfare. But human nature being the way it is I'm somewhat leery of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 05:54
How many generations of her descendants will say this for the ethnic identity to have any real credibility? This is of course if they remember at all the ethniticies of their great-grandparents and grandmothers to begin with. America is heading into an uncertain future from this perspective alone because of the large heterogeneous population it has.


I think the answer is simple, you just have at most two cultures you identify strongly with and the rest you just recognize and pay lip service to them. After all how many germans in Germany today are a mixture of celts, slavs, romans, etc. yet for centuries they have retained their german culture. I mean you shouldn't replace your own culture with an artificial one, that's what's happened to blacks in America, they had to create their own identity because their original ones were stolen from them. And this led to a bunch of extremist and utterly misinformed creations that led to destructive groups such as the Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam.


My point is that it might take 100 or 1000 years for all ethnicities to be mixed and disappear.


I think that's a bit naive, after all we are all pretty well mixed throughout the world. Also it's a very Euro-centric view as well, considering that very little ethnic mixing is occuring in many places in the world, such as China due to cultural taboos. Taboos take hundreds of years in themself to get rid of so that adds time. Plus you have to take into consideration "undesirable" mixing, like the logistics of a Papuan man having children with an Argentine woman. I say undesirable meaning that taken as a population very little mixing will occur in those population due to a variety of factors, culture, language, distance, etc.

There will not be a browning of the world because history and sociology don't support it. People still like to associate with their "own kind" and that too will take centuries to change that attitude. By that time I believe we will be in the early stages of space colonization and once that has begun good luck with keeping humanity as one ethnicity let alone one species.

I like the theoretical idea, already proposed, of no government at all, of people forming their own associations for their own welfare. But human nature being the way it is I'm somewhat leery of it.


Oh no, at least my version of the concept doesn't involve some kind of anarchy. Realistically the government in charge of the separate communities will be very authoritarian but totally non-totalitarian. It will be authoritarian in the sense that it will harshly enforce the status quo, so that no community can interfere in any other community without the second community's permission.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 14:51
I've heard of the browning of the earth that you just spoke about janus, my friend was telling me about it. How eventually we'll all mate and become "equal" in the color sense, and the color of all humans will be a light shade of brown or whatnot.
 
Personally, with the idea of mixing and people identifying themselves as a certain culture, i find that it could be later erased, and much sooner than 100 to 1000 years. 100 years would be a good guess, probably longer if things were to continue. But with travel the way it is, and no doubt in 100 years we'd have much higher technology, with the other side of the world being within reach in minutes and not just hours, that so many people would mix and boarders would begin to be erased (like the EU becoming a EF (European Federation) through a war, interesting fictional future that was proposed by the makers of Tom Clancy's End War game. A situation i could see realistically arising in the direction that many things are headed.) This would, eventually, lead to one culture being dominant within that entire area. Perhaps with some regions being slightly different than others. But as more ground is given to a culture, less ground is there for diversity and as we all travel more i think that the erasing of cultural identity would be overcome.
 
What do you guys think?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 18:12
But as more ground is given to a culture, less ground is there for diversity and as we all travel more i think that the erasing of cultural identity would be overcome.


Just ask the people of the Caucases how erasing cultural identity worked for the past couple of hundred of years.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 18:56
Originally posted by JanusRook

How many generations of her descendants will say this for the ethnic identity to have any real credibility? This is of course if they remember at all the ethniticies of their great-grandparents and grandmothers to begin with. America is heading into an uncertain future from this perspective alone because of the large heterogeneous population it has.


I think the answer is simple, you just have at most two cultures you identify strongly with and the rest you just recognize and pay lip service to them. After all how many germans in Germany today are a mixture of celts, slavs, romans, etc. yet for centuries they have retained their german culture. I mean you shouldn't replace your own culture with an artificial one, that's what's happened to blacks in America, they had to create their own identity because their original ones were stolen from them. And this led to a bunch of extremist and utterly misinformed creations that led to destructive groups such as the Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam.


My point is that it might take 100 or 1000 years for all ethnicities to be mixed and disappear.


I think that's a bit naive, after all we are all pretty well mixed throughout the world. Also it's a very Euro-centric view as well, considering that very little ethnic mixing is occuring in many places in the world, such as China due to cultural taboos. Taboos take hundreds of years in themself to get rid of so that adds time. Plus you have to take into consideration "undesirable" mixing, like the logistics of a Papuan man having children with an Argentine woman. I say undesirable meaning that taken as a population very little mixing will occur in those population due to a variety of factors, culture, language, distance, etc.

There will not be a browning of the world because history and sociology don't support it. People still like to associate with their "own kind" and that too will take centuries to change that attitude. By that time I believe we will be in the early stages of space colonization and once that has begun good luck with keeping humanity as one ethnicity let alone one species.

[QUOTE]I like the theoretical idea, already proposed, of no government at all, of people forming their own associations for their own welfare. But human nature being the way it is I'm somewhat leery of it.



Your are talking more about race rather than ethnic identity which is a very different issue. I concede that you are right in saying that people like to associate with people of similar features but look at America today, if that were so, why do you have so many mixed ethnic identities?

Plus I would like to add that the social conditioning is way different today from centuries ago that differences between people we easy to believe. We have created through technological "progress" a world thats much smaller and much better informed than the world from 100 or 200 years ago. This Allempires forum is the perfect testament to this. People are realizing that the seemingly irreconciable differences they had are not much a big deal either. Belief in nationalism, ethnic superiority etc is quickly succumbing to the power of critical reasoning we have given superiority to, rather than emotional impulses. People are beginning to realize that such beliefs only created despots and oppressive authority profiting from the suffering of the oppressed masses.  Look at the affairs of today; money, immigrants, disease, non-native species cross national boundaries with impunity ironically aided by their country authorities. People are simply losing belief and connections to their similar breathen - this is the century of the self.
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