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Forum LockedGlobal Warming/climate change, what's your belief?

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Poll Question: Where does AE forumers stand on the issue?
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4 [11.11%]
9 [25.00%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 12:15
We are screwing up the environment. No doubt about it. We have a huge hole in the ozone layer down here, so we are certain of that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 12:43
Originally posted by elenos elenos wrote:

Hey, wait a minute, I can't do destructive things that may make me feel good because I can't afford to. Anyway, I'm not sure that I want to even if I could afford a life of total self-indulgence.
 
I was a little frivilous with the use of 'like' and made our existence seem a little wanton. I actualy meant as a collective.  It's not even self indulgence, it's the things we take for granted and think we couldn't do without, like cars for example.   Or the destruction of natural habitats, without a second thought, to fuel our parasitic global expansion.
 
If I ruled the world, I would have imposed  a quota on how many people are allowed to live per sq km arable land.  LOL That would be fun - I would also allow a derivatives market for the buying and selling of quota - for example, England and Holland could buy from a place with a relatively sparse population to its land mass like Russia.   The free market decides global population - that way the world population could be sustained at optimal levels.
 
Totally impractical and unenforcable, though an entertaining tangent (for me) nontheless. lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 19:46
Zagros rules!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:45
Indeed.  I'll jump onto the Zagros bandwagon.  Afterall you would only have to improve upon the current situation.  That should not be too difficult.Ermm 
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 18:03
I for one believe totally that the world is heating up, and that we will only ever make half assed attempts to rectify the situation, if that is, it can be saved atall.
 
But living in a country with severn months of miserable weather a year, a bit of added heat wouldnt go unappreciated.
 
Ive chosen not to worry about global warming, rather to prepare for its consequences.
 
Plus we do not really get snow like we used to if thats any indication, my tea tray, has been soley used for serving tea on for many years now which is a shame, i dont want to brag but on a steep icy hill i used to be able to turn that thing on a sixpence.
long live the king of bhutan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crystall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 18:46

This cannot really still be debated.. most experts already believe it is happening

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 22:14
We can change our attitude towards the world in the light of modern knowledge. The ages of living by myths has finished, now we must live with the realities, that is if anybody can agree what the realities are. Nations are still being stupid about coming to common sense agreements and sticking to them. 
elenos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bgturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 22:34
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Climate change is a fact. Whether its caused by humans or not is what the debate over. Personally I think humans are accelerating a natural warming process. 


The anthropogenic nature of global warming is widely accepted in the scientific community. All peer-reviewed articles published in respectable scientific journals affirm the man made nature of global warming.

The CO2 emissions caused by man by far surpass any natural release of CO2, and the ability of Earth to turn that CO2 back into O2 is increasingly compromised because of the ongoing deforestation of the planet surface.

Without human input global warming would not be taking place. However, once unleashed it may take a life of its own beyond human control. Rising global air and ocean temperatures may lead to the release of vast quantities of methane stored on the ocean floor and under the Siberian tundra, to increasingly frequent forest fires, to a reduction in the reflective snow-cover, all processes which will accelerate the warming process.

I think what is uncertain is what the consequences of global warming will actually be, and whether humans will be able to adapt and survive the new condtions.  Some regions of Earth may actually benefit, while others will be adversely affected. But overall I believe that the effect will be negative.


Edited by bgturk - 05-Dec-2007 at 22:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 12:01
First of all, I am not sponsered by the oil industry.
Does our climate change? Yes it does! Do we change the climate? Perhaps.
The CO2 in the athmosphere is rising. It seems to be caused by humans. But as far as I know, the CO2 increase is following a rising temperature and not going infront of it. We are living in the so called holocene age. This age is following the pleistocene age but if we are correct it is just an interstadial time. So we are expecting a new ice age next (I mean 'next' in a geographical way. That can last from tomorrow up to ten thousands of years!). So perhaps the men caused climate change could prevent a new ice age. But on the other hand the higher temeratures could stop the gulf stream and we're producing a man made ice age. If we are honest, we have to say, we are just at the beginning of understanding climate. So we can only say that it is changing but not why. We shouldn't destroy our nature and shouldn't waste our resources, because we are a part of it and need it. We can not survive if we behave in future as we behaved before but this has just a little to do with the climate.
If we wouldn't change the climate it would change by itself one day. So don't worry about it, learn to live with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 20:38
I'm very glad to hear you're not sponsored by the oil industry, beorna! Yes our climate is changing, yes it does change according to natural factors. However natural factors are not the cause of of the almost immediate change we are experiencing now. What should happen over a period of thousands of years is happening year by year because of man made pollutants on the land and in the atmosphere.

Can we do anything about it? Yes, by reducing the amount of pollutants. However the way it's going you would almost think the average citizen in the culprit. Far from it, the big internationals (they use the interesting term international when most of the companies responsible are registered under loopholes in American law) and are acting in a criminal way so far as taking responsibility towards the health of the world.

We can live with climate change but the environmental criminals should be executed and they money they have made from stuffing up the world should be taken away from the trust funds of their families and put into new ways of cleaning up the world. I bet nobody agrees with me but just wait a few more years and what I'm saying now will seem moderate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2007 at 07:06
More on this topic and some maps, as well as a review of only US weather from NOAA: http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2007/20071213_climateupdate.html
 
 
 
 
 
Call me a skeptic for now, but i still think alot of US weather is significantly, and if not predominantly, driven by the cycle of El nino and La Nina, much more so then man made global warming? Of course my opinions can be subject to change! Also, IIRC... Oceania, Asia, South America, Europe & ect... are just as much subject to these cycles as the US. Stay tuned as we come too better understand this phenomenon.
 
Oh yeah, at the moment, the US is in the middle of the La Nina cycle, i believe!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 06:12
Come to Australia where climate change is not a belief but an ongoing reality. Words and reports alone cannot do ful justice to what is really going on for us living here.  El Nino and La Nina have nothing to do with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 23:45
Originally posted by elenos elenos wrote:

Come to Australia where climate change is not a belief but an ongoing reality. Words and reports alone cannot do ful justice to what is really going on for us living here.  El Nino and La Nina have nothing to do with it.
 
Just a few thoughts...
 
I don't intentionally mean to come across as not taking the problems in Australia on a non-serious level. Whatever is going on down under is not something i ever intend to make light of. You do have my profound sympathy!
 
While i think most of us can agree, that it seems like something is happening to the enviroment. Just how much can be attributed to the destructive nature of man, and not to the earth's billions of  years natural cycle, is an issue that i think is often overstated? Most especially in the realm of politics. Perhaps under any other circumstances, i would probably give in to scientific belief much more easily, without their credibility and intelligence being tarnished and trashed by subjecting themseleves into the ridiculous arena of modern day politics. Full stop!
 
Now, with that said and speaking for myself, after watching weather patterns in my area, and in the surrounding region for several decades now. The powerful phenomenon of El Nino and La Nina cycle is an event that should never, under any circumstances, be underestimated or overlooked!
 
Fo rexample... this past year alone, Texas was pretty much deluged with an over abundance of rainfall, especially from about May and pretty much throughout summer. An extreme rarity in these parts! (Though not just Texas, i believe parts of the UK got a darn good soaking as well, from what i have heard. Whether a near similar scenario took place over the UK, is something that i have only just recently thought of!) 
 
Now, if i didn't know any better, i probably would have gone with the global warming theory. But as i watched that particular event unfold, one of the things that kept sticking out to me was an area of high pressure which was parked right over the eastern and southeastern part of the US. Which meant for us in the region, that any time a low pressure system developed over us or moved into the area, it would immediately become stuck and blocked from moving on toward the east/northeast because of that predominant high pressure system, which did not have the jetstream too carry it away. The jetstream that would've prevented the actual scenario from happening, was located well into the extreme southern parts of the Caribbean. As i understand it, just one of the begining effects of La Nina. IOW... Texas pretty much got soaked and the southeastern part of the US is now in a severe drought because of that event!
 
Still... that is not saying that i don't appreciate this debate, by my unintentional overlooking of events in other parts of the world. On the contrary. The science of understanding our global enviromental weather is critically important and already difficult enough. But, what should also be said, is that the science of modern meteorology is still in it's infancy, of roughly a hundred years or so; Which means to me that the topic is just ripe for people to get carried away with real worry or become paranoid by those (politicans) who either use this issue for their own ends or simply just don't know any better. So, when we throw politics/politicans into the equation, well... one thing seems to be a near certainty all of the time... the topic well become extremely polarized and very confusing, even for the professionals who should know better.
 
Right now it seem's to me, that hysteria reigns and the knowledge that comes from learning more about it, is suffering most significantly; Because... as far as most people are concerned, the topic is settled and the debate is over. There is nothing new to learn, even though there really has not been any type of a real debate about this within the scientific community. Just a group of people who only got together to synchronize their opinions before releasing their opinion that global warming is a fact, even though we know next to nothing about the reality of what is going on out there!
 
Warm regards,
Panther
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 00:17
Panther, I 'm not suggesting you are overlooking the issues you come across as an intelligent guy with ongoing concern for the state of the world. Weather variations do occur naturally but never on an increasing year to year basis as is happening. This alone leads climeotologists to suggest that we should cut down on greenhouse emissions, but any warnings for moderation go largely unheeded even among those who have signed the Kyoto treaty. This is a time of rapid growth for world economies and many former natural barriers are being breached.
 
 
elenos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 00:38
I'm sure that global warming is actually occuring - no question about that, but what we can actually do at this moment in time is the question. The large decisions that would actually make any difference are governmental - the people aren't going to all unanimously be good greens and it's their right not to be - and thus the government needs to take more responsability. But it's a bit of an issue as to how far they can do anything, because the industries and capitalists will obviously not want to change too much. It seems like a vicious circle and for the conditions for us to break out of this circle and do anything about it to be met, we need to concentrate on other aspects of the world first. Besides, it's all very well if my country does something about it, but what about the new rising superpowers such as China and India? They want to industrialise as quickly as possible at whatever cost and frankly, one can't blame them. I can turn off as many lights as I want, do as many domestic green things as I want but at the end of the day, unless the government seriously takes the iniative and risks losing support for the sake of stopping climate change, not much can be done.
 
One more thing that I would say is that I am highly critical of the amount of hysteria being created by the global warming issue. I've seen warnings on the fronts of British national newspapers that fireballs will streak the sky, everyone will die etc, when actually, according to many professional geographers and climateologists, this kind of hysteria is completely ridiculous. Things are bad, very bad, but the truth is, we don't know what will ultimately happen with climate change in the very end. I'm not endorsing it, but it doesn't neccesarily mean global armageddon for all.
"Don't raise your voice - we all know how lovely it is!"
Triano, in "Mosterella" by Plautus! Read it...now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 08:19
You have put the main issues across very well, Astor. I'm not aware of the hysteria being created in the media, but Australian reporting tends to be more down to earth (so to speak). There really is fear among the farmers here with a rapid rise in suicide as they are forced off once fertile land that hasn't seen rain for years. Even all the once common frogs have died off.
 
Even when they do get rain the same crops as before turn out poorly for the rain cannot be depended upon with the rising temperatures. that dumps the rain away from the areas that once had an abundance of water. I haven't heard of a global armageddon and scoff at that scenerio myself, but have heard of of rise in temperature of about three degrees across many countries that will force them to plant different crops and buy new machinery at an outrageous prices. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 08:40
Originally posted by elenos elenos wrote:

Panther, I 'm not suggesting you are overlooking the issues you come across as an intelligent guy with ongoing concern for the state of the world. Weather variations do occur naturally but never on an increasing year to year basis as is happening. This alone leads climeotologists to suggest that we should cut down on greenhouse emissions, but any warnings for moderation go largely unheeded even among those who have signed the Kyoto treaty. This is a time of rapid growth for world economies and many former natural barriers are being breached.
 
 
First off, Thank you for the kind compliment. Secondly, is weather varying to such a great extent on a yearly basis, as is being currently reported now? Or is it because of our increasing knowledge and awareness of how devestating and unforgiving our enviroment can be and always has been, that is currently leading us too possible conclusions that may yet, still prove in the end to have been entirely false, or on the reverse side of the coin; i.e. a major global cool down! Who really knows? Hard%20Working
 
And finally, the Kyoto treaty, while it is honorable that people want to do something about their enviroment, as you've already have noted, quite a few had never intended too take the treaty seriously, except when it comes to paying the press some lip service and, also as well... as not wanting too appear as the international bad guy!


Edited by Panther - 28-Dec-2007 at 08:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 09:20

At one time weather reporting was a dull affair and it still is for those have no interest in the fruitfulness of the coming year. Accurate records have been kept for there was no reason for to screw around with them for that would play havoc with weather forecasts on which the primary wealth of nations depend. It's like trying to look into the future for those on the land need to know how the year is going be like, less rainfall or more, hotter or colder temperatures and so on. The farmer wants to know what crops to plant, how many acres, what equipment to use and how many herd of sheep or cattle to run etc.

 

Over hundreds of years weather predictions have grown increasingly more technical for there there are some methods that work better than others and can give an extra edge to farmers. So if the weather experts say there is something up we need to listen, but those not living on the land miss out on the right reasons and go for the more sensational guesses like you say.  After WWII there was a spike in the weather warming patterns for all those countless munition explosions had taken place, atomic bomb etc. But over the last few years that previous spike has been annually exceeded world wide.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 06:17
Originally posted by Crystall Crystall wrote:

This cannot really still be debated.. most experts already believe it is happening

 
Whats scary is that there are many individuals who deny the phenomenon all together.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 06:49
To sit at the long,sandy beaches of iceland, having a reykjavik sunrise in my hand, the warm wind blows the noise of a polar-caribean band to my ears, a pretty nice imaginaton.
 
But the truth will be a bit different.
 
Storm and rain - ups, we have it all days yet, will be on the agenda of the most european countries. The gulf stram will submerge to the ground and Iceland will be polar desert - ups,like it is yet.
 
All these changes made by humans in the name of humanity. What will come next?

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