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Forum LockedGjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbey)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 08:49
ps almost forgot, someone please email the arberesh in italy, get them up to date, so they can start speaking greek instead of old albanian. poor confused folks!
 
 
yes.i think the "arberesh" (albanian at the time of skanderbeg) would help us for this case couse skanderbeg is their identity,even such they speak nearly the language of that time.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 09:01
who can translate this at me? does it say he is the descendent of Phyrro of epir or what???Ouch
                   i would be grateful to you....

Georg%20Castriota,%20gen.%20Skanderbeg,%20Fürst%20von%20Epirus%20und%20Albanien%20%281405-1468%29

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 03:16
I have been seaching for the origin of cultures since I was a child. I was always interested in Ancient Greece, which led me to Thracians, Trojans, Phrygians, Etruscans, Celts, Iberians, Phoenicians, Ethiopians and Illyrians. I particularly found the history of Illyrians interesting, the cultural existence of these tribes and the connection for centuries between , Spartans,Athenians, Argives, Ionians, Beotians, Lycians , Macedonians, Thracians, , Pelasgians, Paeonians, Thesprotians EteoCretans,etc.    Prehistoric cultures that ebbed and flowed some times in the mountains of beyond the Danube some times over the Pindos mountain regions. They were tribal , disconnected and since the stone age they maintained organized raids on the Thracian tribes , Macedonian tribes and each other. The darkness that exists in the annals of Albanian, Squeptarian or Illyrian cultural identity lies in the lack of a literate and acheolgically organized artifacts that can connect the roots of this culture. The people remained tribal and secluded in their montain top villages for centuries, they suffered the same lack of education most of the cultures experience durring a time occupation or brief economic expansion that results in feudal kingdoms and principalities that feed off the sweat and blood of the impovrished serfs . The only knowledge we have of them is through their struggles against literate cultures like the Greeks , Romans and the Middle Age historians of the East and West. Unfortunately the Greeks (Hellenes) are not given the full respect and importance they deserve in their connection to the surrounding cultures with whom they had scraped up against or influenced in through historical time. We cannot view the historical record as little susinct insect jars where we map Illyrians here and Bulgarians there and Slavs over on the right etc. People move around and cultures clash , meld , push , shove and mix. That is the natural flow of humans. Even in the racially and politically restrictive regions of Germany and Russia of the early 19th century   Jewish communities flourished and even mixed with the indigenous Christian communities. The same goes for all nations. This type of behavior explains only a fraction of the mosaic we call historical human interaction. There is music and food , there is dance and religious exchange , ideas and and trade all these weave a fabric of cultural connectivity that existed in the Balkans before and after the Slavic & Turkic and peoples inhabited southern Europe. Without this contact and human connectivity there would be no life in these regions. There is no life in a vacuum. Greeks from the dawn of their introduction to the Balkan region were not even defined as one culture like their neighbors they were fragmented groups , tribes , kingdoms and eventually states. Still they fought and still they interacted. Athenians struggled against Thebans, Spartans against Argives and so on. They fought for economic superiority , the right to vote or the right to live as they saw fit. The same occured a millenium later when new tribes came together to form Slavic nations , Turko Slavic nations, or Squeptarian peoples. They sought sovreignty and economic security as well the Hellenes became Greeks the Romans Byzantine , then the names became the same and indistinguishable. Is it so hard to beleive now that there are borders and lines and languages and religions fading yet again in Europe that once under Byzantine Imperial Protection some Hellenic nobles lived amongst Slavs, Squeptarians , Bulgars, Romanians, Seljuk Turks and Gypsies and called them all their people. That they defended the state as it stood then. That in Constantinople , Armenian Emperors ruled for decades and that Bulgaro Roman Greeks mixed and sailed the mediteranean fighting off Arabs and Vikings. Is it so hard to believe a wealthy Greek general married a Slavic princess and as a favor to the interests of the Empire agreed to move to the northern provinces to protect the inhabitants who supplied the Empire with goods and manpower. The Empire was at its end the invaders encroached on its borders and the sons of the Empire and what it represented defended what it stood for. At that time they defended the Cross, the Emperor and what it meant to belong to Byzantium. Alliances changed populations were put to the sword or converted into another faith and the rest as we say is history. If George Kastrioti, Skanderbei was an Illyrian, Italian,Macedonian, Cuman, Armenian, Capadocian or Greek it does not matter and that is because he would have seen no difference except to say he was a Christian and not a Ottoman Turk. Having lived a life as both Muslim & Christian the fact that he chose his Christian identity says enough. This was why he stands out. Was their an Squeptarian loyalty to the people he grew up with and fought alongside? Yes! Did he have Hellenic Byzantine roots and alliances? Yes! Did he have Slavic matrialinial alliances? Yes! Did he have Squeptarian or Albanian family? Yes!. These are all true. What divides Greeks, Albanians, Slavs and Triballians today is quite a different story. The devastation of the fall of The Empire and the 500 years of darkness and servitude that followed under Ottoman Turks affected Albanian, Greek,Armenian, Romanian, Slav, and Arab alike. The ignorance, greed and barbarity of a caged animal affected the behavior of all subject peoples during the break up of the Ottomans. It was evident in the way we turned on the Turks when they were weak and the way we turned on each other when we were free of them. If we were ever free from them that is. It is the stigma of a concentration camp survivor that makes the Balkans the powderkeg of misery that it has been and has become after all these years. Some think that racial cleansing or distinct cultural borders or a historical re-analysis of a fallen hero will prove anything , it will not. No ones words mean enough to fight or die for. Your identity is not on the line and neither is the identity of some one whose dry bones decorate a museum. One must Forge and understanding of what history teaches us and gives us. Ideals like these which created this website. Curiousity of ouselves and others. What historical contemplation has acheived through exchange and transformation either with positive creative energy or through destructive struggle and survival ? We are all the end results of these struggles the genetic mesh that survived the centuries and grindstone of time. What new thing will we the inheritors of this mantle introduce to the next genetic heap? Or will we continue the same old buisness and wander around like oxen tied to a pole forever stomping the same old ground?
I would rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent than in the extent of my powers and dominion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 04:59

Excellent post, Konstantine. Thumbs%20Up

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 11:30
Originally posted by Konstantine Konstantine wrote:

I have been seaching for the origin of cultures since I was a child. I was always interested in Ancient Greece, which led me to Thracians, Trojans, Phrygians, Etruscans, Celts, Iberians, Phoenicians, Ethiopians and Illyrians. I particularly found the history of Illyrians interesting, the cultural existence of these tribes and the connection for centuries between , Spartans,Athenians, Argives, Ionians, Beotians, Lycians , Macedonians, Thracians, , Pelasgians, Paeonians, Thesprotians EteoCretans,etc.    Prehistoric cultures that ebbed and flowed some times in the mountains of beyond the Danube some times over the Pindos mountain regions. They were tribal , disconnected and since the stone age they maintained organized raids on the Thracian tribes , Macedonian tribes and each other. The darkness that exists in the annals of Albanian, Squeptarian or Illyrian cultural identity lies in the lack of a literate and acheolgically organized artifacts that can connect the roots of this culture. The people remained tribal and secluded in their montain top villages for centuries, they suffered the same lack of education most of the cultures experience durring a time occupation or brief economic expansion that results in feudal kingdoms and principalities that feed off the sweat and blood of the impovrished serfs . The only knowledge we have of them is through their struggles against literate cultures like the Greeks , Romans and the Middle Age historians of the East and West. Unfortunately the Greeks (Hellenes) are not given the full respect and importance they deserve in their connection to the surrounding cultures with whom they had scraped up against or influenced in through historical time. We cannot view the historical record as little susinct insect jars where we map Illyrians here and Bulgarians there and Slavs over on the right etc. People move around and cultures clash , meld , push , shove and mix. That is the natural flow of humans. Even in the racially and politically restrictive regions of Germany and Russia of the early 19th century   Jewish communities flourished and even mixed with the indigenous Christian communities. The same goes for all nations. This type of behavior explains only a fraction of the mosaic we call historical human interaction. There is music and food , there is dance and religious exchange , ideas and and trade all these weave a fabric of cultural connectivity that existed in the Balkans before and after the Slavic & Turkic and peoples inhabited southern Europe. Without this contact and human connectivity there would be no life in these regions. There is no life in a vacuum. Greeks from the dawn of their introduction to the Balkan region were not even defined as one culture like their neighbors they were fragmented groups , tribes , kingdoms and eventually states. Still they fought and still they interacted. Athenians struggled against Thebans, Spartans against Argives and so on. They fought for economic superiority , the right to vote or the right to live as they saw fit. The same occured a millenium later when new tribes came together to form Slavic nations , Turko Slavic nations, or Squeptarian peoples. They sought sovreignty and economic security as well the Hellenes became Greeks the Romans Byzantine , then the names became the same and indistinguishable. Is it so hard to beleive now that there are borders and lines and languages and religions fading yet again in Europe that once under Byzantine Imperial Protection some Hellenic nobles lived amongst Slavs, Squeptarians , Bulgars, Romanians, Seljuk Turks and Gypsies and called them all their people. That they defended the state as it stood then. That in Constantinople , Armenian Emperors ruled for decades and that Bulgaro Roman Greeks mixed and sailed the mediteranean fighting off Arabs and Vikings. Is it so hard to believe a wealthy Greek general married a Slavic princess and as a favor to the interests of the Empire agreed to move to the northern provinces to protect the inhabitants who supplied the Empire with goods and manpower. The Empire was at its end the invaders encroached on its borders and the sons of the Empire and what it represented defended what it stood for. At that time they defended the Cross, the Emperor and what it meant to belong to Byzantium. Alliances changed populations were put to the sword or converted into another faith and the rest as we say is history. If George Kastrioti, Skanderbei was an Illyrian, Italian,Macedonian, Cuman, Armenian, Capadocian or Greek it does not matter and that is because he would have seen no difference except to say he was a Christian and not a Ottoman Turk. Having lived a life as both Muslim & Christian the fact that he chose his Christian identity says enough. This was why he stands out. Was their an Squeptarian loyalty to the people he grew up with and fought alongside? Yes! Did he have Hellenic Byzantine roots and alliances? Yes! Did he have Slavic matrialinial alliances? Yes! Did he have Squeptarian or Albanian family? Yes!. These are all true. What divides Greeks, Albanians, Slavs and Triballians today is quite a different story. The devastation of the fall of The Empire and the 500 years of darkness and servitude that followed under Ottoman Turks affected Albanian, Greek,Armenian, Romanian, Slav, and Arab alike. The ignorance, greed and barbarity of a caged animal affected the behavior of all subject peoples during the break up of the Ottomans. It was evident in the way we turned on the Turks when they were weak and the way we turned on each other when we were free of them. If we were ever free from them that is. It is the stigma of a concentration camp survivor that makes the Balkans the powderkeg of misery that it has been and has become after all these years. Some think that racial cleansing or distinct cultural borders or a historical re-analysis of a fallen hero will prove anything , it will not. No ones words mean enough to fight or die for. Your identity is not on the line and neither is the identity of some one whose dry bones decorate a museum. One must Forge and understanding of what history teaches us and gives us. Ideals like these which created this website. Curiousity of ouselves and others. What historical contemplation has acheived through exchange and transformation either with positive creative energy or through destructive struggle and survival ? We are all the end results of these struggles the genetic mesh that survived the centuries and grindstone of time. What new thing will we the inheritors of this mantle introduce to the next genetic heap? Or will we continue the same old buisness and wander around like oxen tied to a pole forever stomping the same old ground?
 
I have some questions
 
What do you exactly mean by squeptarian?
 
Do you mean by the way that there is no ethnical identity in the balcans?
 Are you trying to say that all we can say about Scanderbeg is that he was a christian from the balcans?
 
Do you believe that ethnicity is connected with race or inherited by blood?
 
Prej heshtjes...!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 09:32
Squiptarians, I use this term to identify the peoples who would later become Albanians. I cannot say with any certainty or archeological evidence that they are direct decedents of the Illyrians so I give them the name of the land they inhabited under the protection of the Byzantines “Sqiptar” or land of the eagles. To answer your second question George Kastriotis or Gjergj Kastrioti , was several things. I am sure there are things he was which we will never know. But the outstanding quality he had was his determination and integrity. He could have easily gone the way of so many other lords of Byzantium an retreated to, Italy or Russia. That is why I doubt if he were here that he would understand this question of racial purity or cultural affinity. He came from a culture that concentrated on faith, duty and loyalty to the Empire. In the 1400's Byzantium may have been a skeleton of its former greatness but the social,political, economic, artistic architectural achievements it made were never to be equaled.During the time of Skanderbeg's life Constantinople fell , Islam and the Ottoman's were sweeping the Balkans like a storm. All traces of the Eastern Roman Empire was coming to end. It suffered great accomplishments and defeats, based on the leader or leaders that either manipulated or killed their way to the throne. The Empire had at some time a size encompassing all Southern Italy , the Greek Hellespont , Minor Asia, North Africa and at other times it decreased in size into less than half of Greece. In this dark era leaders that remained like George Kastrioti's family that had inhabited the place we now call Albania with territories including Epirus(Greece) and Macedonia .                                                                                               Not unlike the Katakouzenos or the Komnenos of Trapezounta and the Paleologus of Morea & Constantinople , the Kastriotes were also a family of wealth and import with roots in the Epirus Despotate including the peoples of Squiptar & Macedon. George Kastrioti fought with and for these peoples who would later become Greeks , Albanians, Serbs he also fought alongside several other ethnic groups. This does not change or support any ethnic affinity. I am sure he was raised as what one would call as an inhabitant of Epirus and was proud of it. His father Gjon Kastrioti (Ioannis Kastriotis) was of the Noble Medieval Greek family Kastrioti),lord of Middle Epirus,Squiptar & Macedonia. His mother Vojsava a Serbian Princess from the Tribalda family, who came from the Pollog valley. George allied with the Greek Noble family George Arianites Komnenos. This alliance further solidified by his marriage to George Arianites's daughter Andronike. George Kastriotis’s had a son Ioannis Kastriotis who was married to the daughter of the last Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX Paleologus , Irene Paleologus. Some would like to obliterate the historical memory of that period in time and to do so would be to pretend there was no Byzantium or Greeks but to do so one would have to rewrite history entirely.                                                                                                                                      This I cannot do and will not allow out of respect for a culture and and the ideals these people fought for which include the Greeks & Albanians of the 1400's. Neither do I myself attempt to rewrite George Kastriotis background. I did not give him his name, I did not make him speak five languages (Greek,Squiptar,Slavic,,Turkish & Latin) neither did I give him titles and lands in the crumbling Byzantine Empire neither did I make him a Greek/Slav of Epirus. A man in that period could walk down the alleys of Kroia (Krujė ) and rub shoulders with Jews, Serbs,Bulgarians,Vlachs, ,Venetians, Gypsies, Greeks and Squiptars. One could even buy them all a mug of Boza or Wine at the local tavern and go home drunk and unharmed. But this is just conjecture.                                                                                                                                    The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the sovereign Byzantine Province free. He was Epirote Greek, considered himself as such and still supported his Squiptarian compatriots & subjects .                 This information irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute historical documents :
                                                                                                                     •Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th century AD), calling him "The Epirote prince" and "The Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanian.
•Georgios Kastriotis addresses the sovereign of Taranto -Giovani Antonio proclaims his title and his genuine feelings, writing (in Greek )               "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus arose that only the Romans could push back “.                                                                     •Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.                                                •Letter to King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes (in greek ): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeg hails and wishes well "
•Speaking in the presence of the Pope Paul II he stresses: "After the subjection of Asia and Greece, after the slaughter of her hegemonic spawns of Constantinople & Trapezounta ( Euxinos- Pontos) and the desolation of biggest part of Macedonia and Epirus, against the savage conqueror that seeks to ruin the cross , and elevate upon "The City" the Crescent Moon of Islam and the fulfillment of slavery throughout the whole world ... I alone stand with the relic (Holy Cross) and my soldiers along with my small territory..."
•He had Greek Education in letters and military tactics and spoke the Greek Language fluently
•The Turkish biographer of Ali, Ahmet Moyfjt, writes for Georgios Kastriotis: "in the year 1443 he escaped from the Ottoman camp of Morava The Greek sovereign Kastriotis has gone to the seat of his ancestors, the city of Kroia Epirus.                                                                If this is too much to digest here is historical anecdote of some interest. George I of Greece was proclaimed King of all Greeks in the early 1900's he was born in Copenhagen as “prince George son of King Christian IX of Denmark.” He was of Dutch lineage. His children and grandchildren all ruled Greece with no drop of Greek blood between them. Yet they spoke Greek lived in Greece and despite obvious familial ties to Holland & Germany and not dismissing their disastrous involvement in the events of WWI they were rulers of Greece. So one can live in a country sympathize and be part of it and not even be of that place genetically. George Kastrioti was half Greek half Slav he lived in an area where his subjects spoke several different languages(Albanian among them) and practiced different religions. But he was an Orthodox Christian , honored as Skanderbei ( Lord Alexander the Great ) . Learned the ways of the Turk and and excelled as a conscript under the Sultan. Later he rebelled against the Turks until he was died.                                                      The Albanians call him a national hero and rightfully so, he defended them and their liberties as free individuals and Orthodox Christians who lived under the protection of the Byzantine Empire. When the political and cultural fabric changed in the region , Squiptari -Arnavutlu (Albanians) were given the option all subjects of the Ottomans were given. Either you convert and prosper or remain Christian and die. Most of the population of Squiptar converted to Islam , the rest either remained in mountain tops as Orthodox Christians or found refuge in Italy and converted to Catholicism. The same was true of the Greek Populations of the area who were given the same options. Today many Albanian Nationalists will not accept this because it does not fit their necessary historical view- none the less the truth remains. I hope that ends that question.                                                                                                          To answer the Third question, No I do not believe in racial blood lines or ethnic purity . Nor do I think that there is an inherited genetic quality that ensures that any one ethnicity is better than any other. Or that one must use their genetic uniqueness to enforce this obvious sense of entitlement. I do not ascribe to or support nationalism, Neo Nazis, KKK or Muslim Extremists or White Power Christians. I propose that any such ideas of racial purity ( are forms of group insanity) and only breed hate, false pride ,murder and ethnic cleansings.                                                                                                   Take for example there is a group called the “Golden Dawn” in Greece. These people believe they are 100% pure Greeks and that their blood is pure they promote nationalism and racial purity.                                                                                                                                                As an observer of history I find this ridiculous.                                                                    Since the dawn of the Bronze age several different civilizations and cultures inhabited the Helladic Peninsula. Before the Proto( Greek Speakers) came along the Pelasgians , Minyans, Cycladics, Minoans, Thesprotians, Thracians all lived in Greece.                                                 These people were not erased they did not flee or disappear into thin air. They were assimilated into the invading culture. The cultures preceding the Proto Greeks had achieved organized agricultural communities, trade, art, complex religious institutions, irrigation, architecture, metalwork, ship building , etc. The Greek speakers survived because they adapted ,and they needed the established cultures that preceded them to advance their own emergence as a people. Soon they learned and mixed with these pioneers and continued to spread out across the Mediteranean always learning and exchanging ideas, architecture,music, art etc.              -So what later became Greek or Hellenic was a combination of cultures characteristics and habits all incorporated & assimilated . This continues till present day. Their strong Patrilineal family units and linguistic adaptability created the glue that cemented the building blocks of an ever evolving society. This is why the Greeks survived all these millenia, adaptability and curiousity of the other. The Greeks have maintained a cultural identity and strengthened it by acknowledging admixture as a healthy and necessary component for a successful civilization all the while maintaining a distinct character all its own.. Alexander the Great was the only ruler to actually try an institutionalize this practice of mixing Greeks and Persians amongst his phalangite troops in Asia. During the Roman Period and the the later Byzantine Period this practice held true but only until violent invasions from Europe and Asia took place. As time went on wave after wave of armed Piracy and the countless invasions and attacks during the Middle Ages forced most Greek populations to retreat to mountain villages and forest valleys to avoid violent raids (rapes, exterminations) by Saracens, Normans, Vikings, and Turks. The only Greek tribe that could call themselves genetically pure even among the Greeks were the Karacachans or (Sarakatsanides) a nomadic shepherd people who practiced transhumant lifestyle that spanned from the Central Pindos Mountain region to the mountains of Bulgaria .                                                                                                              They are now mostly assimilated with the Greek or Bulgarian settled agricultural populations since the 1920's. Thus ending a chapter in the myth of ethnic bloodlines. Since the beginning of the 21rst century the world has become more genetically and culturally mixed than ever before in human history.                                                                                                     So the inevitability of the myth racial purity and blood if it ever really existed is becoming well history! The world is surely evolving and so are thousands of ethnic cultures as we speak . It is sad because the empty villages with rotting hope chests of tradition are certainly fading as much as my grandmothers hand-woven rugs or my grandfathers olivewood shepherds staff. Since the advent of the internet/web in the last decade our world has become smaller with the advancement of technology and media proliferation more people of different cultures and genetic codes are meeting and mixing. Hopefully two hundred years from now some archeologist will find this thread in the rusty remains of a network server and ask What is this racial purity they speak of ?


Edited by Konstantine - 07-Sep-2007 at 12:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 18:12
Squiptarians, I use this term to identify the peoples who would later become Albanians.
 
At the times of Skanderbeg, the region was inhabitated by Albanians, known from the byzantine sources as Arbanon, Arbanites, Arbanoi from the slavonic (serbian) sources as Arbanas, Rabanas and from the Latin (Venetian, Genoese, Papal) as Albanense, Albania etc.
 
In the local language they called themselves Arbėr (Arban) and the language Arbėrisht (Arbanisht).
 
It was only later, by the 18-th century that the albanians started calling themselves Shqiptarė and their land Shqipėri.
 
So, there is no room for squiptarian (anachronism, historically incorrect)
 
I cannot say with any certainty or archeological evidence that they are direct decedents of the Illyrians so I give them the name of the land they inhabited under the protection of the Byzantines “Sqiptar” or land of the eagles.
 
Since we are discussing here medieval times, I want to remind you that in those times there was no place under the protection of the Byzantines (what do you mean btw) called Sqiptar
 
To answer your second question George Kastriotis or Gjergj Kastrioti , was several things.
 
He was a human being, and he certainly had a very complex identity (like all of us)
 
I am sure there are things he was which we will never know. But the outstanding quality he had was his determination and integrity. He could have easily gone the way of so many other lords of Byzantium an retreated to, Italy or Russia. That is why I doubt if he were here that he would understand this question of racial purity or cultural affinity.
 
Would he understand it if he ran away to Italy or Russia???
 
He came from a culture that concentrated on faith, duty and loyalty to the Empire. In the 1400's Byzantium may have been a skeleton of its former greatness but the social,political, economic, artistic architectural achievements it made were never to be equaled.
 
Loyalty and duty to which empire? Albanian lands have been occupied in turn by the Bulgarian Emperors, and from the Serbian Empire of Dusan, and then from the Ottomans (before Skanderbeg). So the albanian lords should still be loyal to Byzantium, even though for more than two centuries have been subdued by other political formations, and have sworn loyalty to other lords?
Most of the aristocratic families of Albania were promoted in those ranks by the serbian or bulgarian emperors, some of them also from the Venetian rulers of the Coast.
 
 
During the time of Skanderbeg's life Constantinople fell , Islam and the Ottoman's were sweeping the Balkans like a storm. All traces of the Eastern Roman Empire was coming to end. It suffered great accomplishments and defeats, based on the leader or leaders that either manipulated or killed their way to the throne. The Empire had at some time a size encompassing all Southern Italy , the Greek Hellespont , Minor Asia, North Africa and at other times it decreased in size into less than half of Greece. In this dark era leaders that remained like George Kastrioti's family that had inhabited the place we now call Albania with territories including Epirus(Greece) and Macedonia .                                                                                               
 
Well, again, long before Skanderbeg was even born, Byzantium was confined only in the very city of Costantinople, Trapezonta, some islands and some parts of Morea. The Albanian Principalities and domains were not under Byzantine control or suzereinty, since the late 10-th century
 
And the land was at the time called Albania from some centuries, in many venetian, byzantine and ottoman maps and documents.
 
Not unlike the Katakouzenos or the Komnenos of Trapezounta and the Paleologus of Morea & Constantinople , the Kastriotes were also a family of wealth and import with roots in the Epirus Despotate including the peoples of Squiptar & Macedon.
 
And here you are wrong again
 
The Castriotes, unlike all the wealthy powerful families that you mentioned, were a merely provincial family, owning two villages in northern Albania - western Kosova. These villages were given to the Kastriotes by the Serbian Empire (not Byzantine). This was a relatively new family, it didnt exist during byzantine times. And there are no historical documents to connect the Castriotes with the Despotate of Epirus or any other region that is not the region of Malesia e Hasit, in the border between Albania and Kosova.
The grandfather of Skanderbeg moved from there to the Mati (Emathia - Venetian Sources) in Northern Albania, where he was the leader of some small villages which were inherited by Gjon Kastrioti (the father of Skanderbeg). They were vasals of the Balsha family, and then of the Thopia family (Karolvs Thopivs known as Rex Albaniae)
 
George Kastrioti fought with and for these peoples who would later become Greeks , Albanians, Serbs he also fought alongside several other ethnic groups.
 
Not true. He never had the chance to ally himself with other balcanic princes. He was an ally of Hunyadi, but he couldnt reach him becouse of Brankovic opposition.
The only non-albanian soldiers fighting for him were venetians, neapolitans and some slavians from the Crnojevici or from the castle of Svetigrad.
 
This does not change or support any ethnic affinity. I am sure he was raised as what one would call as an inhabitant of Epirus and was proud of it.
 
By Epirus he didnt mean what greeks or albanians understand today. At the time Epirus was considered to be the southwestern part of the adriatic shore, from Ragusa (Dubrovnik) to Arta.
 
His father Gjon Kastrioti (Ioannis Kastriotis) was of the Noble Medieval Greek family Kastrioti),lord of Middle Epirus,Squiptar & Macedonia.
 
As I wrote before, they were just some provincial leaders of small villages, and Gjon Kastrioti never had any real links with what is understood now by Epirus or Macedonia. In the five villages of the Mati region (Northern Albania) that he controled, or in the three villages controled by their forefathers in the Hasi region there never lived greeks...
 
His mother Vojsava a Serbian Princess from the Tribalda family, who came from the Pollog valley.
 
Some say Bulgarian, anyway, she was slavic, and of the Pravoslav orthodox religion.
 
George allied with the Greek Noble family George Arianites Komnenos.
 
Incorrect. Gjergj Aranit Komneni, (George Aranites Komnenos) was not greek but an albanian leader from the village of Shpat (Central Albania). At the time all his posessions in what is now southern albania were called by the venetian sources Albania Aranita (not Grecia Aranita, or Epirus Aranitus). Aranite is mentioned as an ally of the venetians many times, and they refer to him as the albanian noblemen Giorgio Aranita.
Certainly he was very proud to show his connection to the imperial family of the Komnenes, but that connection was gained through marriages (he was not a descendant). For all this information you can consult Oliver Jens Schmitt (Venetian Albania), or other documents. I havent read this, but it looks pretty good : http://www.eie.gr/editions/pdf/b070050.pdf
 
 
 I did not give him his name,
 
Of course you didnt, you wouldnt call him Gjergj, would you?
 
I did not make him speak five languages (Greek,Squiptar,Slavic,,Turkish & Latin)
 
well, from many sources we learn that he actually knew those languages, and he kept his chancelleries (documents) in the imperial languages (Byzantine Greek, Latin, Ottoman and Serbian). This didnt mean that he was all of it, at the end the grave of his father in Athos Mountain is still called Arbanaski Pirg.
 
neither did I give him titles and lands in the crumbling Byzantine Empire neither did I make him a Greek/Slav of Epirus.
 
The titles, I guess he conquered those titles, he didnt inherit any
 
A man in that period could walk down the alleys of Kroia (Krujė ) and rub shoulders with Jews, Serbs,Bulgarians,Vlachs, ,Venetians, Gypsies, Greeks and Squiptars.
 
Sure, Kruja (Croia - from alb Kroi - water source) was a metropolitan center. Are you kidding me??? Do you actually have any idea of how small Kruja was? How do you know that all this communities lived there, or in its surroundings?
 
One could even buy them all a mug of Boza or Wine at the local tavern and go home drunk and unharmed. But this is just conjecture.            
 
You mean that English and Slavic tourists visited the very small "spartan" castle of Kruja to get drunk???LOL
                                                                                                                        The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the sovereign Byzantine Province free.
 
Read before. By the data that we have, Skanderbeg never expressed any will to free Byzanthium, or any feeling of Bzyanthine Nationalism (if such thing ever existed)
 
He was Epirote Greek,
 
Ah well OK, I understand
 
                                                                                                                     •Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th century AD), calling him "The Epirote prince" and "The Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanian.
 
As I already explained, at the time Epirus was a geographical expression to show all the southwestern adriatic coast from Ragusa to Arta. Barleti himself being from Shkodra used the term epirote. But this doesnt coincide with todays Epirus, or with the ancient one. Same goes about Macedonia, it was used to show different regions thorugh history, make some research, have a look at maps from different times, and you will agree with me.

•Georgios Kastriotis addresses the sovereign of Taranto -Giovani Antonio proclaims his title and his genuine feelings, writing (in Greek )               "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus arose that only the Romans could push back “.  
 
He kept his chancelleries in Greek, Latin, Serbian and Ottoman. and history doesnt know any forefathers of him from todays Epirus. It is common between nobleman, especially between families that lack aristocratic traditions to seek a noble descendance from the myths.
 
 
 
 •Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.                                                •Letter to King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes (in greek ): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeg hails and wishes well "
 
The very same

•Speaking in the presence of the Pope Paul II he stresses: "After the subjection of Asia and Greece, after the slaughter of her hegemonic spawns of Constantinople & Trapezounta ( Euxinos- Pontos) and the desolation of biggest part of Macedonia and Epirus, against the savage conqueror that seeks to ruin the cross , and elevate upon "The City" the Crescent Moon of Islam and the fulfillment of slavery throughout the whole world ... I alone stand with the relic (Holy Cross) and my soldiers along with my small territory..."
 
As an educated man, and as a clever politician knowing what was going on in the Balkans but also in the western Europe he tried to convince the Pope to send him troops...

•He had Greek Education in letters and military tactics and spoke the Greek Language fluently

True, he was educated also in Ottoman, Serbian and Latin, according to his biographers. He couldnt be educated in Albanian, which was a language that could not be written at the time.

•The Turkish biographer of Ali, Ahmet Moyfjt, writes for Georgios Kastriotis: "in the year 1443 he escaped from the Ottoman camp of Morava The Greek sovereign Kastriotis has gone to the seat of his ancestors, the city of Kroia Epirus. 

Thats why he was a biographer of Ali, and not of Kastriote
 
 
George Kastrioti was half Greek half Slav
 
Ok, he had slavic blood, but this half greek, I dont understand where does it come out???
 
he lived in an area where his subjects spoke several different languages(Albanian among them)
 
Yes, when he lived in the Sultans Court...When he was in Albania, there could be only a minorance of slavic subjects in his domain, but we dont have any data of greek inhabitants or whatever. Do you???
 
and practiced different religions.
 
This is true even today
 
But he was an Orthodox Christian
 
Most probably his forefathers, albanian lords subjects to Car Stefan Dusan and then to the Balshas were Pravoslav Orthodox Christians, so his church was not Greek Orthodox.During his life Skanderbeg often converted to Catholicism willingly...
 
honored as Skanderbei ( Lord Alexander the Great ) .
 
Wrong Dear, Skanderbeg means Lord Alexander, (no great...)
 
And if you really are interested in Albanian Medieval history, read some books. The opera of Oliver Jens Schmitt is very good by scientific standards, I suggest it to you.
But it sounds profane writing what you wrote, refere to the data, maps and documents written...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 19:16
Thank you for the excellent comments and educated though often at times impotent- I mean important side remarks. It must be fustrating having all that knowledge and information on such a dubious and clever national hero and not be able to counter with any real sources to the contrary. A national hero of the Arbesh as you put it who at a moments notice will convert to Islam and then Catholocism in order to satisfy some urge to remain in power. George Kastrioti, Skanderbey if you will is willing to put his own life and the lives of countless others he respected on the line relenquishing all ties to a petty Byzantine Despotate "which you continously refer to as a non existent though letters and documents refer to this even by way of credible historical evidence. Having this wealth of Medieval knowledge must seem to grant one a certain peace of mind that the main qualifier in the vast historical context of your argument that there are no written sources of other ethnic populations other than Albani in the region. The region being Epirus refering to the land mass encompassing all of Modern day Albania and the region of south- western Greece. A land of the same name is an archeological and historical area attributed to many populations throughout the ancient and medieval world. Like it or not the Greek speakers inhabitted it then and inhabit it now. The name Epirus (gr. Apeiros ) means coastline and always had that name. This has not changed for millenia. I have a question ,please enlighten me as to how some petty land owners from Greece with no political power built a such a lasting historical legacy? How is that the Byzantine Emperor's daughter married the son of an small land owner of the Kosovo/Epirotan region. How is that the Komnenos family became so desperate so as to marry into an even less important Arbanian (Arianitis) land owner with no ties to the Empire of unequall cultural or economic status. I suppose that you are probably correct to assume that once the Ottoman Turks were knocking on the castle door that marrying your daughter to the local thug was a better fate than to be overwhelmed by Muslim hordes. It must be gratifying have all this irrefutable proof of just the opposite and to sit there silently. It seems that this national hero defended thin air and laid his life on the line for a population that would readily convert to Zorastrianism if the price was right with the stipulation no Greeks be involved (in fine print). It must be consoling to have all the peices of the puzzle even though the image of this great man remains a little unclear. I am sure this image will do , it has done fine all these years for the Albanians why disturb it and the illusion of safety it brings countless generations. I apologize if the truth is not profane enough to disturb you.
I would rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent than in the extent of my powers and dominion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 15:11
It must be fustrating having all that knowledge and information on such a dubious and clever national hero and not be able to counter with any real sources to the contrary.
 
I gave you references, if you want to learn more about the issue!
 
 
 A national hero of the Arbesh as you put it who at a moments notice will convert to Islam and then Catholocism in order to satisfy some urge to remain in power.
 
Dear K., have you ever seen me writing "gorokos" instead of "greeks"? There is no sense in the terms "Arbesh" and "Squiptarian" try to be correct in what you write, it will ad potence to your striking comments.
 
George Kastrioti, Skanderbey if you will is willing to put his own life and the lives of countless others he respected on the line relenquishing all ties to a petty Byzantine Despotate "which you continously refer to as a non existent though letters and documents refer to this even by way of credible historical evidence. Having this wealth of Medieval knowledge must seem to grant one a certain peace of mind that the main qualifier in the vast historical context of your argument that there are no written sources of other ethnic populations other than Albani in the region.
 
I was clearly referring to the region that now falls on northern albania, southern montenegro. And yes, in that region we never had any data of greek setlers...even though you might believe that greeks settled even in Amerika.
 
The region being Epirus refering to the land mass encompassing all of Modern day Albania and the region of south- western Greece.
 
And montenegro as well, yes that was the medieval connotation of Epirus
 
A land of the same name is an archeological and historical area attributed to many populations throughout the ancient and medieval world.
 
Excuse me dear, but it s not the same. The ancient Epirus did not contain what is now central and northern Albania. The medieval did (geographical expressions are often abusive and changing through the centuries)
 
Like it or not the Greek speakers inhabitted it then and inhabit it now.
 
Yes, the greek speakers always inhabitated the southern part of the Medieval Epirus. Are you claiming Greeks living in northern or central albania? Data and sources please..!
 
The name Epirus (gr. Apeiros ) means coastline and always had that name. This has not changed for millenia.
 
Thank you, for I didnt know...OMG, you think you came here to enlight us
 
I have a question ,please enlighten me as to how some petty land owners from Greece with no political power built a such a lasting historical legacy?
 
Which legacy? The greek culture on the area survived thanks to the greek populaces, not because of landowners...
 
 How is that the Byzantine Emperor's daughter married the son of an small land owner of the Kosovo/Epirotan region.
 
Who said that???Gaining the name through marriage doesnt mean that you marry the daughter of the emperor, the Komneni were a big family with many branches, some more and some less important.
 
How is that the Komnenos family became so desperate so as to marry into an even less important Arbanian (Arianitis) land owner with no ties to the Empire of unequall cultural or economic status.
 
I already explained you what happened.
 
 I suppose that you are probably correct to assume that once the Ottoman Turks were knocking on the castle door that marrying your daughter to the local thug was a better fate than to be overwhelmed by Muslim hordes.
 
The Komneni, as you might now, did not live only inside the walls of Konstantinople or Trapezounta. And those heroic emperors tha you mention did marry their daughters to the Ottoman Princes and Sultans.
 
It seems that this national hero defended thin air
 
He defended his country, does this mean that the country was Greece?
 
and laid his life on the line for a population that would readily convert to Zorastrianism if the price was right with the stipulation no Greeks be involved (in fine print). It must be consoling to have all the peices of the puzzle even though the image of this great man remains a little unclear. I am sure this image will do , it has done fine all these years for the Albanians why disturb it and the illusion of safety it brings countless generations. I apologize if the truth is not profane enough to disturb you.
 
I am very sorry, but this forum is not the right place for you. History is not a matter of oppinions, and I think you have to study a bit more. There are no unclear or unsure things on Skanderbeg. There were many biographers of him, and his descendants are still alive.
 
Read the Genealogy of the Prince Orlando Castriota, or the memories of John Mussachi, read the studies of european (not albanian scholars) and then come to discuss your opinions.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 09:35
I apologize for calling the Albanians , Squiptari. Lets get that out of the way. For centuries everyone called the people living in the Helladic peninsula "Greeks" we are Hellenes so now its your turn to get that right. If you want to be picky lets be fair about it. The Albanians misapropriated the name Albani by adopting it from one the several Illyrian tribes that inhabitted that area centuries ago. Still no conclusive evidence remains for any connection between those tribes and the Arbesh. Now as the fact remains I think this forum suits me just fine and I dont believe your opinion on wether I should stay or not matters much. Especially since you have dodged some of the most important historical texts & letters I posted since I started this little "tet a tet" with you. My original purpose was to shed light in a literary sense on the tragedies of the Balkans and how they re-emerge both historically and culturally through a facination with the myth of racial purity . I did not post to fuel some kind of cultural hatred that you or any other Albanian nationalists are harboring for any of your neighbors or their opinions. My claims that the Kastrioti name was of Epirotic Hellenic stock first is not unfounded. Secondly it does not mean that I or any others are laying claim to the teritory of Albania or to his bones or to his toothbrush for that matter. During Kastrioti's time the territories , borders and cultures went back and forth like chess peices on a board. It makes one wonder how many times certain populations were moved and how often they resetled or were slaughtered and erased since they had no real protection. Some cultures and nations for example inhabit the dwellings of others after murdering and burning their villages and homes. Some appropriate their lands through trade and manipulation of international laws controlling the records and history of that land as well. All in all,in the end it is the historical record that we can rely on. Not heresay or the slanders of a few who re-order slips of paper that already have been taken out of context to form their own version of history. I am not interested in limited points of view but instead the whole picture. If this picture contradicts my point of view I will accept the truth. Will you ? Whether George Kastrioti was an Epirotan of Hellenic or Albanian stock it is not important. What is interesting is how desperately the Albanians hold on to the memory of this hero as if it were salvation itself. This is especially ironic since he fought against the Ottoman Turks and that 90% of Albanians who he fought for and call him hero sold out to Islam and the Turkish hegemony for property and rights. I wonder what George would think of that? Hellas has a very long list of national heroes dating back to origins of written history we do not need for a monopoly on historical figures. If George Kastriotis is that important to you by all means prop him up and call him Sally if it satisfies you. I am sure Tito's memory will be appropriated too some day, one may have to wait long enough for people to forget so as to fabricate a new background and nationality to support a campaign of disinformation. I always find it ironic when cultures devoid of their own real historical roots & memory ,due to political repression and cultural brainwasing seek to lay claim to anything that is not spelled out or nailed down. I am sure that it will make no difference to you because you already have your mind made up, despite this fact I will read up on the references you gave. I will endulge a critique further just to prove a point.

Edited by Konstantine - 12-Sep-2007 at 12:05
I would rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent than in the extent of my powers and dominion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 10:46
http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/balkgen.htm#C                                               OFFICIAL BALKAN NOBILITY AND FAMILY NAMES WEBSITE: CHECK OUT THE SPELLING OF THIS UNDER CASTRIOTA
I would rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent than in the extent of my powers and dominion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 14:31
Originally posted by Konstantine Konstantine wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/balkgen.htm#C                                               OFFICIAL BALKAN NOBILITY AND FAMILY NAMES WEBSITE: CHECK OUT THE SPELLING OF THIS UNDER CASTRIOTA
 
Is this a source???Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 14:53
NOW ACCORDING TO YOUR INSTRUCTION , I FURTHER ENLIGHTENED MYSELF WITH THE ACCOUNT OF JOHN MUSACHI. I HAVE ALSO EXTRACTED EXCERPTS FROM THE CHRONICLE THAT I THINK YOU MIGHT FIND INTERESTING. FiRST AN INTRODUCTION: THE YEAR 1515
John Musachi:Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty
The chronicle or memoir of John Musachi (Ital. Giovanni Musachi) constitutes the oldest substantial text written by an Albanian. Musachi, despot of Epirus, was of a noble, ruling family from the Myzeqe region of central Albania. He was forced to abandon his land and take flight to Italy when Albanian resistance to the Ottoman conquest collapsed and the country was occupied by the Turks. The prime objective in his chronicle was not to provide a history of his times, but simply to prove to his descendants that they were of an important, landowning family so that they did not forget their origins and property rights. Appendixed to the chronicle, though not included here, is a text by John's son, Constantine Musachi, dated 1535, in which the latter states that his father "was buried in the large church of Francavilla in the country of Otranto in a marble grave where mass is conducted three times a week. On it is an inscription reading: Almighty Jesus, this is the grave of John Musachi, the son of Gjin the Despot, Lord of Epirus and of Myzeqe, who stemmed from the city of Byzantium and bore the double headed eagle as his emblem. To him was dedicated this wreath in the year of our lord 1510." For this reason, the following chronicle is traditionally dated 1510. A reference in the text to the Battle of Chaldiran in 1514 proves, however, that John Musachi cannot have died before 1515.   THE FOLLOWING AN EXCERPT IN WHICH MUSACHI EXPLAINS EPIROTES & THE BYZANTINES ALONG WITH HIS COMPATRIOT GEORGE KASTRIOTIS CONNECTION TO AND ALLEGIANCE , SYMPATHIES WITH THE BYZANTINE CROWN.WHICH YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY DISAGREED WITH IN OUR DISCUSSIONS REGARDING THE KASTRIOTIS AND THE EPIROTAN DESPOTATE WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED BY THE CROWN IN THE 1200's. I wish you to know that the destruction of the Byzantine Empire, which also meant our own destruction, began with a disagreement between Palaeologus and Cantacuzenus. This led to Palaeologus asking assistance from Murad I, the King of the Turks.            The latter set foot in Europe, it is said, in 1363.Passing through all these countries, he occupied much land, among which was the city of Adrianopole (Edirne). When Murad the Second took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar , the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost . It was there that the above mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of Albanians with him, was slain. The said Lazar of Serbia was taken prisoner and later slain. Now began a period of continuous warfare with the Turks in Albania, in which many lords and gentlemen gave their lives. As mentioned above, it was a lack of courage among them that caused them to lose their states. The city of Croya (Kruja) fell during the reign of Bayazid (8) the First, as later did Velona (Vlora), although we defended them without interruption. Nonetheless, the power of the sultan continued to grow and our power continued to diminish.TO FURTHER ESTABLISH NOT ONLY A CONECTION WITH THE BYZANTINE ROYAL FAMILY & THAT OF THE KASTRIOTI & THE MUSACHI I HAVE ALSO CITED THE FOLLOWING EXCERPT.Later, during the reign of Murad the Second, Scanderbegarrived, the son of Lord John Castriota, who ruled over Emathia (Mat) in Albania. His father had given him and his two brothers as hostages to the said Murad when they were all small. The other two died. When he turned Turk, the one called George Castriota became known as Scanderbeg, meaning Alexander and Bey, which is a ruler. When he grew up, he managed to gain influence and was clever and courageous. When his father died, he escaped from the sultan. It is said that when the sultan sent the Pasha of Roumelia to fight against the Hungarians, he sent Scanderbeg with him. The said pasha was defeated, the Turkish army routed, and the said Scanderbeg took flight with the others. As fate would have it, the chancellor of the pasha happened to be with him. Scanderbeg took him prisoner and forced him to issue a decree in the name of the sultan for the governor of Kruja to cede that territory to him. The chancellor finally agreed to sign the decree, although against his will. So he then slew the said chancellor so that nothing of the matter would ever be revealed. He then took to the road with a number of Albanians who were with him and, having arrived in Albania, entered Kruja. He presented the decree to the governor and the governor turned the place over to him. He thus became Lord of Kruja, a mighty fortress. All the rulers of Albania rejoiced at the event and Scanderbeg immediately became a Christian. He then summoned the said rulers of Albania to a meeting at Alessio (Lezha). Some came in person and others sent their representatives. Thus the said Scanderbeg became their commander-in-chief in Albania and each of them donated either men or money according to his capabilities. Other sons of these noblemen also served under his command, taking part in the war and defending their country.The said lord was skilled and courageous in warfare and became commander-in-chief, and everyone obeyed him. Scanderbeg married the daughter of Lord Arianiti Comnenus and this lord sent my father, Lord Gjin, as a matchmaker because the said Lord Arianiti was the brother in law of my father. He was married to Maria Musachi, the sister of my father, by means of whom, as I said, the marriage was concluded. He took "Lady Andronike Comneniates" for his wife, who was my cousin, and she adopted the surname Scanderbeg from her husband. Later, the said lord, by means of his virtue, his courage and with assistance from these other lords, carried out many an onslaught against the Turks and won many victories, though not without losses on the part of our lords and cavalrymen.BY THE WAY THE NAME "ANDRONIKA or ANDRONIKE" IS NOT A CHRISTIAN BAPTISMAL NAME IT IS AN ANCIENT GREEK NAME ANDRO (MAN) NIKE (VICTORY) OR MAN'S VICTORY. NOW I ALSO ADD THIS EXCERPT FROM MUSACHI'S CHRONICLE TO EMPHASIZE A CONNECTION TO THE BYZANTINE'S OR GREEKS. MUSACHI DISTINGUISHE'S THE GREEKS AND THE ALBANIAN EPIROTES AS SEPERATE IN NAME BUT UNITED IN SIN FOR THE FALL OF THE EMPIRE. I FIND THE IDENTITY ISSUE FOR THE ALBANIANS / EPIROTE NOBELS INTERESTING THIS IS DISTINCTION I WILL COME BACK TO LATER. My wife, your mother, Maria Dukagjini, was in her last month of pregnancy with Lord Adrian when we were in flight in the city of Durrės, and hid at the home of some noblemen, who were friends of ours. It was there that the aforementioned Lord Adrian was born. He was taken to be baptised as if he were a baby of a peasant found somewhere, so that no one would know whose son he was and who his godparents were. Lord Theodore and Lady Helena found refuge with other noblemen, without betraying who they actually were. But subsequently, when suspicion arose, the Turks came and searched the town for your mother and her children. Your mother hid in the headboard of a bed under a feather mattress and the bed was made up so that no one would notice her. When the Turks searched the house, they were unable to find her, thanks to God in His mercy. In this manner, she and her children were saved from the wrath of the Turks and were not delivered into their savage hands. The aforementioned noblemen and some other good people, who were our vassals, managed within a month to lease a boat and send her and her children secretly to Apulia, where they arrived safe and sound.For this reason, I beg you, my children, to fear and to love God, and I appeal to you to be good Christians, if you wish to have my blessing, for it was the sins of the rulers of the Greeks, and indeed our own ones, too, which first plunged us into this abyss of pain and suffering. Be humble and devout and always avoid sin. Have faith in the Holy Trinity and in the Most Sacred Mother of our Saviour, who will save your souls and give you good health. Take to heart Christian teachings, do good and righteous deeds and return to your homeland.IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE MUSACHI OBSERVED ORTHODOX RITES OF BAPTISM WHICH ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE PLACE 40 DAYS AFTER THE CHILD IS BORN. HE WOULD RATHER BAPTIZE HIS NEWBORN AS AN ORTHODOX PEASANT THAN A CATHOLIC NOBLE. THE RELIGIOUS TRIALS WHICH THE ALBANIAN/EPIROTANS & GREEKS SUFFERED ONCE LEAVING THEIR HOMELAND AND ARRIVING IN TO THE REALM OF THE ITALIAN CATHOLICS NEVER CEASED.THE NEXT EXCERPT IS ONE MUST CONSIDER WITH MUCH CARE AND DETAIL. THE MUSACHI A NOBLE FAMILY OF EPIRUS (GREEK) & COMPANION FIGHTERS AGAINST THE TURK ON THE SIDE OF KASTRIOTI SKANDERBEY I am leaving you with this brief chronicle, so that when God in his mercy should deign to return you to your homeland, you will at least know some details of your country and of your forefathers. From the little information I have, I would like to inform you of the names of your forefathers, who held sway and who were expelled from your land and country by the sultan. Alas, I cannot tell you anything of the first ruler in ancient times because the chronicles of this country have been lost, but I do wish to bring to light the little I know and what people have told me. They say in fact that our dynasty stems from city of Constantinople and came to rule over Epirus in AlbaniaFrom the start, it is important that you learn our family name, and what the reason was that we are called Molosachi. You should know that our family name comes from the land of the Molossi, known as such since ancient times. We were rulers of that land and thus they called us. The word Molosachi was then corrupted into Musachi.You should also know that the emblem of our dynasty since ancient times has been a flowing fountain which flows in two streams, one on each side. This is the fountain of Epirus about which many authors have written that it extinguishes a lit torch and lights an extinguished torch. Later, we also had a two headed eagle crowned with a star in the middle, and as you know, we have cherished this fountain ever since that time for undertakings and ceremonies.These arms of ours are ancient, and both the arms and the family name come from that country."DEFINITION: MOLOSSI -The Molossians (Molossoi) were an ancient [Greek[1] tribe that settled Epirus during Mycenaean times. On their northeast frontier they had the Chaonians and to their southern frontier the kingdom of the Thesprotians, to their north were the Illyrians. The Molossians were part of the League of Epirus until they were annexed into the Roman Empire and 150,000 of its inhabitants were enslaved.[2]According to the Greek myth, they were the descendants of Molossus, one of the three sons of Neoptolemus, son of Achilles and Deidamea. Following the sack of Troy, Neoptolemus and his armies settled in Epirus where they joined the local population.Molossus inherited the kingdom of Epirus after the death of Helenus, son of Priam and Hecuba of Troy, who had married his erstwhile sister-in-law Andromache after Neoptolemus' death.[3]Plutarch tells us that according to some historians their first king was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Plutarch also says, that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Zeus at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians.[Strabo tells us that the Molossians, along with the Chaonians and Thesprotians, were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, who once ruled over the whole Region - the Chaonians earlier and later the Thesprotians and Molossians. Plutarch[3] tells us that the Thesprotians, the Chaonians and the Molossians were the three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes that had emerged from Epirus and were the most powerful among all the other tribes of the region.The Molossians were also renowned for their vicious hounds, which were used by shepherds to guard their flocks. This is where the canine breed Molossoid, native to Greece, got its name. The most famed member of the Molossian dynasty was the King of Epirus Pyrhus (whose name means fire in Greek) , who became famous for his Pyrrhic victory over the Romans when he entered Italy to free the subjegated Greek colonies. According to Plutarch Pyrrhus was the son of Aeacides of Epirus and a Greek lady from Thessaly named Phthia, the daughter of a war hero in the Lamian War. Pyrrhus was a second cousin of Alexander the Great.THIS REVELATION IS QUITE DIRECT REGARDING HIS OBVIOUS ALEGIANCE AND LOVE FOR THE ALBANIAN/EPIROTAN/MOLOSSIAN PEOPLE & COUNTRY STRAIGHT FROM MUSACHI'S MOUTH. THERE ARE THE LETTER TO GIOVANNI ANTONIO OF TARANTO WHICH I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN BY GEORGE KASTRIOTIS/CASTRIOTA/ISKANDER-BEY (LORD ALEXANDER) DESPOTATE OF EPIRUS I do not have to speak for the Epirotans. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things have not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep? FROM MUSACHI'S CHRONICLES THE EVIDENCE OF HIS CULTURAL ROOTS TO THAT OF THE GREEKS This Myzeqe is the country of the Molossi and was thus named after them. We have been the rulers of that country from ancient times to the present day and took on the family name Molosachi, but the word Molossia was corrupted and is pronounced Mosachia and in Albanian it is called Myzeqe. This Molossia is in actual fact Epirus, as was mentioned above. It is a part of the whole land to be described below, which today is part of Epirus as far as I remember.    I am telling you what I know and what I have heard.May you know that sebaston cratos means commander-in-chief of the emperor. It is one of the five titles which the emperor accorded. Lord Andrew Musachi held this title.When you come upon the city of Belgrade (Berat), you should know that it is the one in Epirus and in Myzeqe, and not the one in Hungary.When you come upon the name Theodore Musachi Chiscetisi (Kishetisi), know that KISHETSI means long haired. And indeed they wore their hair long. In Albanian, the word 'KISHET' (gėrshet) means 'braids' and that was the way they were accustomed to wearing their hair, as far as I remember. Even in our times, they usually wore their hair down to their shoulders in our principality. This is why I mention this.And when you come across the term despot, be aware that this means prince and is the foremost title given by the emperor.I must explain in particular what this post or title means, which in spoken Greek is called sevastocrator. In written Greek, they say sebaston cratos. The meaning is as follows: sebaston means 'consecrated, honourable, venerable, worthy of honour, reverence and respect', in Latin augustem et venerabile thus sebasto civitas Augusti nomine dedicata, cum antea Samaria diceretur (Strabo, book 16). The word cratos means 'power, government or reign', in Latin potentia, imperium. Such is the meaning of the title sebaston cratos. This is explained in the latin dictionary and the Greeks have explained it in the same way. Thus, as I have stated, sebaston cratos or in the spoken language sevastocrator, has the significance of the aforementioned dignitary, being a combination of two words, sebaston and cratos.                                                                       THIS CONNECTION NOT ONLY IN TITLE OR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GREEK. MY ARGUMENT RATHER FOCUSES ON A FAMILIARITY OF THE RULLING CLASS NOT ONLY WITH THEIR ROOTS BUT THE AKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT THEIR IDENTITY LIES IN THEIR GREEK ROOTS. AFTER GENERATIONS OF INTERMINGLING WITH SLAVS(SERBIANS) BULGARIANS, AND ALBANIAN NOBILITY THE MUSACHI'S NEVER FORGET THIER GREEKNESS OR ROMIOSINI OR HELLENISM. THIS IS THE POINT. I ALSO WANT TO ADD THE KISHET OR LONG HAIR , COMES FROM THE ANCIENT GREEK KHIS= POURING , HETI = MANE. OR POURING MANE LIKE THE MANE OF A HORSE. THIS IS ANOTHER COINCIDENCE I WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT CONNECTS THESE ALBANESE/EPIROTANS WITH THEIR ANCIENT GREEK ROOTS. I THANK YOU FOR THE REFERENCE AND AS I FIGURED BEFORE I AM ON THE CORRECT PATH ABOUT GEORGE KASTRIOTIS. I HAVE YOU TO THANK AND YOU HAVE INSPIRED ME TO DO MORE IN DEPTH STUDY ON THE SUBJECT.                    Extract from: Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi. Per Giovanni Musachi, despoto d'Epiro. Published in: Chroniques gréco-romanes inédites ou peu connues publiées avec notes et tables généalogiques, ed. Charles Hopf, Berlin, 1873,

Edited by Konstantine - 16-Sep-2007 at 03:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 14:55
I apologize for calling the Albanians , Squiptari.
 
Apologizing is not enough, you should learn that the Albanians since the 18th century prefere to call themselves Shqiptarė. And you see, this is different from Squiptari etc.
 
For centuries everyone called the people living in the Helladic peninsula "Greeks" we are Hellenes so now its your turn to get that right.
 
It is not analogic.
 
The Albanians misapropriated the name Albani by adopting it from one the several Illyrian tribes that inhabitted that area centuries ago.
 
And do you have the sources? How did the mountainous albanians of the 10th century learn about the Albani of the second century AD? What was their name before of this "misapropriation". Or is this just another opinion of yours???
 
Still no conclusive evidence remains for any connection between those tribes and the Arbesh.
 
Of course it doesnt, I dont know who the Arbesh are. But I certainly know that the Arbėresh (Albanians) are the descendants of the Albani, archaeologically proven (the Koman early mediaeval culture). Anyway, I dont expect from you to be that informed...
 
Now as the fact remains I think this forum suits me just fine and I dont believe your opinion on wether I should stay or not matters much.
 
Of course, there are some members of AE who are even worse. If you enjoy yourself, then its OK.
 
 Especially since you have dodged some of the most important historical texts & letters I posted since I started this little "tet a tet" with you.
 
You mean a "Tete a tete", dont youLOLOMG you are such an intellectual, I can see that from the elite terminology you use. Which were your historical text & letters? You continue giving statements without bringing any sources.
 
My original purpose was to shed light in a literary sense on the tragedies of the Balkans and how they re-emerge both historically and culturally through a facination with the myth of racial purity .
 
Thank you very much, AE needed your light
 
I did not post to fuel some kind of cultural hatred that you or any other Albanian nationalists are harboring for any of your neighbors or their opinions.
 
Dont worry, I have many greek friends, I have a lot of respect for the Greek culture etc. I dont wanna be harsh, but you are not the right one to represent Greeks!
 
My claims that the Kastrioti name was of Epirotic Hellenic stock first is not unfounded.
 
Indeed you can find it in many nationalistic driven websites coloured in white n blue.
 
Secondly it does not mean that I or any others are laying claim to the teritory of Albania or to his bones or to his toothbrush for that matter.
 
Even if you would I wouldnt care!
 
During Kastrioti's time the territories , borders and cultures went back and forth like chess peices on a board. It makes one wonder how many times certain populations were moved and how often they resetled or were slaughtered and erased since they had no real protection.
 
And do you have some real information on what actually happened? Have ever read anywhere that greeks lived somewhere in the area where the Castriotes originated? Bring this damned sources!
 
Some cultures and nations for example inhabit the dwellings of others after murdering and burning their villages and homes. Some appropriate their lands through trade and manipulation of international laws controlling the records and history of that land as well.
 
Thank you for the lecture, I have a degree in Pol.Sci & Int. Rel.
 
All in all,in the end it is the historical record that we can rely on.
 
True, read it!
 
Whether George Kastrioti was an Epirotan of Hellenic or Albanian stock it is not important.
 
Of course it is important, this thread is dedicated to him and his life and gesta.
 
What is interesting is how desperately the Albanians hold on to the memory of this hero as if it were salvation itself.
 
Better holding on to him than to emperors who married their daughters with the Turk sultans, giving them sons that later conquered the City.
 
This is especially ironic since he fought against the Ottoman Turks and that 90% of Albanians who he fought for and call him hero sold out to Islam and the Turkish hegemony for property and rights.
 
Sold out to islam??? What do you mean?? Why did Greeks sold out to hebrew christianism???Why did you abandon your beloved pagan gods. Faith and religion is not a matter of nationality and of ethnic background
 
I wonder what George would think of that?
 
Whatever he would think, it would be in his tongue (albanian)
 
Hellas has a very long list of national heroes dating back to origins of written history we do not need for a monopoly on historical figures.
 
Sure
 
If George Kastriotis is that important to you by all means prop him up and call him Sally if it satisfies you.
 
Do you mean that any albanian orthodox, bearing orthodox christian names and surnames are greek??should they have muslim names to be albanian???
 
I am sure Tito's memory will be appropriated too some day, one may have to wait long enough for people to forget so as to fabricate a new background and nationality to support a campaign of disinformation. I always find it ironic when cultures devoid of their own real historical roots & memory ,due to political repression and cultural brainwasing seek to lay claim to anything that is not spelled out or nailed down.
 
And what does Tito have to do with it? Why not George Bush (he s greek you know, Georgios Mpousis)
 
I am sure that it will make no difference to you because you already have your mind made up, despite this fact I will read up on the references you gave. I will endulge a critique further just to prove a point. 
 
Thats good. You should definitively start reading!
Prej heshtjes...!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 15:52
I BELIEVE MY PREVIOUS POST WILL GIVE YOU PAUSE TO RETHINK. BUT I WANT TO REPLY TO YOUR PREVIOUS AND ONLY PROVOCATIVE STATEMENT. This is especially ironic since he fought against the Ottoman Turks and that 90% of Albanians who he fought for and call him hero sold out to Islam and the Turkish hegemony for property and rights.

Sold out to islam??? What do you mean?? Why did Greeks sold out to hebrew christianism???Why did you abandon your beloved pagan gods. Faith and religion is not a matter of nationality and of ethnic background
                                                                                                                        GREEKS DID NOT SELL OUT TO JUDEO CHRISTIAN THOUGHT FOR LAND PROPERTY OR TITLE AS DID THE ARNAUTLU SUBJECTS OF THE OTTOMANS. THE GREEKS LIKE THE ROMANS ETC. ACCEPTED THIS RELIGION AS A GRADUAL AND COMPLEX SERIES OF HISTORICAL EVENTS THAT ORGANIZED A CONVERSION OVER CENTURIES. IN THEIR EVOLUTION AS A PEOPLE(GREEKS) CHRISTIANITY WAS A NATURAL CHOICE AND NOT A WILL TO POWER. THE HELLENISTIC AGE WHICH BROUGHT ABOUT THE FOUNDATION IN WHICH CIVILIZATIONS IN THE MEDITERANEAN I.E ROME,CARTHAGE AND ATHENS ALONG THE REST OF THE WESTERN AND NEAR EASTERN WORLD COULD SHARE IN THE BENEFITS OF ORGANIZED CITIES AND SOCIAL INFRUSTRUCTURE THAT SURROUNDED THESE CENTERS OF TRADE. THESE CITIES USUALLY HAD SHIPPING PORTS WITH TRADE GOODS AND ALONG WITH THESE GOODS ALSO CAME PEOPLE WHETHER THEY WERE SLAVES OR SKILLED ARTISANS OR EVEN PHILOSOPHERS TEACHERS , PRIESTS OF ISIS, OR HISTORIOGRAPHERS. THESE CENTERS CREATED A FORUM OR STAGE FOR NEW THEISTIC RELIGIONS, CULTS & PHILOSOPHIES TO ARISE. THROUGH THIS TRADE ,TRAVEL AND COMMUNICATION ,A NEW TYPE OF DISCOURSE TOOK PLACE AMONG THE PHILOSOPHERS. PHILOSOPHICAL AND ONTOLOGICAL DEBATES TOOK PLACE TO ACERTAIN THE ORIGINS OF THE UNIVERSE AND MANS PLACE IN IT. PHILOSOPHICAL THEOLOGY EVENTUAL INTELECTUAL,ECONOMIC AND MATERIAL WEALTH AND PROSPERITY THAT NEVER BEFORE SEEN TOOK PLACE & WITH THIS AROSE A NEED FOR TRUTHS AND IDEAS THAT COULD CREATE A NEW FUTURE FOR THIS NEW WORLD. AT THE END OF THIS PERIOD THE HELLENISTIC AGE GAVE WAY AND A DAWNING OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE PICKED UP WHERE IT LEFT OFF. WHERE HELLENISM FOCUSED ON ARTS AND SCIENCES , ROME CREATED ARCHITECTURAL MARVELS THAT WERE UTALITARIAN AND SUBLIME. WHERE HELLENISM CREATED ACADEMIES AND THE COLOSSUS OF RHODES , ROME BUILT REAL ROADWAYS THROUGHOUT EUROPE THE VIA APIA WHICH INSTITUTED A COLOSSAL TASK OF UNITING THE EMPIRE THROUGH COBBLE STONE EDIFICES. THIS WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE AND CITY ORGANIZATION CREATED A NEED FOR SOMETHING TO BIND AND ORGANIZE A PEOPLE WHO WERE SUDDENLY STARTING THE WORLD AS A WHOLE. THE POPULAR RELIGIONS (ISIS,ZEUS AMON,MITHRAS) WERE NOT ENOUGH , THE SCIENCES AND PHILOSOPHIES OF THE DAY CONTRADICTED THEM AND MADE THEM LOOK LIKE SUPERSTITIONS. THE NEW RELIGIONS LIKE CHRISTIANITY WERE MORE APPEALING AND SEEMED HONEST AND BELIEVABLE. THE GREEKS SOUGHT OUT A RELIGION THAT ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS OF ITS TIME . DESPITE CULTURAL AFFINITY OR HERITAGE MANKIND SOUGHT TO FEED THEIR SOULS AS WELL AS THEIR BELLIES. CHRISTIANITY ESPECIALLY AMONGST THE GREEKS HELD SWAY. THIS IN NO WAY PARALLELS ALBANIANS AND THEIR HISTORICAL LACK OF RELIGIOUS AFFINITY. ISLAM WAS THE EASY WAY OUT AND PERHAPS GREEK ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY & CATHOLOCISM WAS MORE FOREIGN TO THEM THAN THE APPEALING AND ECONOMICALLY SATISFYING POSITION THE OTTOMAN TURKS OFFERED. SO I DO NOT SEE THE CORELATION OF YOUR QUESTION AS TO WHY GREEKS ARE CHRISTIANS AND WHY THEY ARE NOT PRAYING TO ZEUS ANYMORE. I AM BEWILDERED AS TO WHY A POLI- SCI GRAD WHO CONTINUOUSLY RUBS HIS SUPPOSED DEGREES IN OUR COLLECTIVE FACES WOULD NOT SEE THE VAST CHASM IN THIS COMPARISON. P.S LOVE THAT MUSACHI CHRONICLE , OR SHOULD I SAY MOLLOSIAN CHRONICLE. MANY THANKS.   

Edited by Konstantine - 16-Sep-2007 at 04:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 16:15
What is interesting is how desperately the Albanians hold on to the memory of this hero as if it were salvation itself.

Better holding on to him than to emperors who married their daughters with the Turk sultans, giving them sons that later conquered the City.
                                                                                                                             I GUESS IT SOUND LIKE IT WOULD BE BETTER TO HOLD ON TO A CULTURAL HERO WHO DID NOT GIVE IN TO THE TURKS LIKE KASTRIOTI. KONSTANTINE THE PALEOLOGUS DID NOT GIVE IN EITHER SO I UNDERSTAND YOUR ARGUMENT. BUT THE BYZANTINES WERE FAMOUS FOR SUCH MOVES , FOR EXAMPLE THE BULGARIANS, THE RUSS AND SOME OF THE SELJUK TURKS WHO ALSO ACCEPTED THE CROWN AND TO WHO MANY ROYAL RELATIONSHIPS THROUGH MARRIAGE WERE MADE IN ORDER TO KEEP THE HORDES AND ENEMIES OF THE EMPIRE AT BAY. I AM SURE YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS PRACTICE BEING YOU HAVE A POLI SCI DEGREE. WHY WOULD THAT BE CONSIDERED AS A NEGATIVE , IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT WAS THE PRACTICE EVEN FOR GEORGE KASTRIOTI WHOSE MOTHER WAS A SERBIAN PRINCESS. GEORGE KASTRIOTI ALSO MARRIED AN ALBANIAN GREEK BY THE NAME OF ANDRONIKE. WHY WOULD THIS BE UNUSUAL AMONGST ROYALTY. IF ANYTHING ISKANDER-BEY AT LEAST CONVERTED BACK TO CHRISTIANITY AND FOUGHT OFF HIS ENEMIES RATHER THAN KNEEL DOWN LIKE HIS ALBANIAN SUBJECTS DID TO THE TURKISH CRECENT.

Edited by Konstantine - 14-Sep-2007 at 00:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 17:09
1474 Letter by George Merula " THE SIEGE OF SHKODRA"                                      AN INTERESTING ARTICLE OF HISTORY THAT DESCRIBES A GREEK IN THE FACE OF THE OTTOMAN TURKS DURRING THE ATTACK ON "ALBANIAN" SHKODRA. In addition to him was Triadano Gritti (Triadanus Grittus), Venetian commander of the fleet and an octogenarian, who despite his advanced age, showed fine resistance and was well concentrated on carrying out his task as best he could. No one believed that he could do it because it was a singular feat. At that time, he was travelling in the Aegean Sea, checking up on the islands thereabouts, and had just arrived at Chios when he heard that Shkodra, a town of great strategic significance, had been surrounded. Turning back, he set off for the Adriatic Sea, gathered his naval forces and entered the mouth of the Buna River, giving orders that his triremes and biremes should sail up the river, using oarsmen, because, in addition to the current of the river, the winds were blowing in the opposite direction. When he arrived at a certain spot where stone embankments had been built out into the water to slow down the current and where fishermen had constructed little huts to catch fish, he realized that the boats could go no further. He decided, in order to be on the safe side, to spend the night near the old church of Saint Sergius (Shirq), which is situated about five miles from the town. He intended the next morning at the break of dawn to embark upon caiques and small boats to see if he could find some route so as to come to the assistance of those under siege. When the enemy found out about the plan from some escaped oarsmen, and realized that the whole fleet could be blocked by them throwing logs into the river at the point at which it was at its narrowest, and thus stop the triremes from advancing, orders were given without delay that all other activities be suspended, that trees be cut down, and that most of the army cross over to the other side of the river so that our soldiers could be attacked from both banks with all sorts of missiles and weapons.
    In the midst of such preparations, and while all paths were being strictly guarded to prevent the Venetians from using their spies and escapees to find routes in, a Greek fellow, once taken prisoner by the Turks and forced into servitude, but later appointed by the pasha as a high-ranking official of the region, reflecting on the religion in which he had been raised and educated, jumped onto the pasha's steed, stole his lance and galloped off to the place where the ships were anchored. He asked to speak to the commander of the fleet and, having boarded one of the triremes, he revealed the enemy plan and informed the Venetians that they were in great danger. As soon as the Venetians heard this, orders were given that the whole fleet be armed and made ready for battle. THE MORE I READ THE MORE I LEARN


Edited by Konstantine - 16-Sep-2007 at 04:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 22:51
I did not post to fuel some kind of cultural hatred that you or any other Albanian nationalists are harboring for any of your neighbors or their opinions.

Dont worry, I have many greek friends, I have a lot of respect for the Greek culture etc. I dont wanna be harsh, but you are not the right one to represent Greeks!
                                                                                                                       I MADE THE STATEMENT TO THOSE WHOSE OBVIOUS NATIONALISM MIGHT BE INJURED. I HAVE READ SOME ACCOUNTS ON THE ALREADY LIMITED & BIASED HISTORY OF THE AREA AND ITS INHABBITANTS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THAT OF THEIR BALKAN NEIGHBORS. REPEATED DISTRUST,POLITICAL MANIPULATION , FEAR & HATRED AMONGST NATIONS THAT DUE TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THEIR INTRODUCTION TO EACH OTHER & THE CONTINUOUS CLASHES GENERALY SHARE ONLY THESE THINGS IN COMMON. I NEVER CLAIMED TO BE A REPRESENTATIVE OF GREECE OR THE GREEKS. I LOVE HISTORY & CULTURE THATS IT . I DO NOT SPEAK ALBANIAN SO BEAR WITH THE TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS. I REGARDS TO YOUR HARSHNESS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT I AM THE RIGHT ONE TO REPRESENT GREEKS I AM SURE ITS EQUAL TO YOUR CAPACITY TO FORGIVE. NONE THE LESS I AM HERE TO LEARN SO I WILL PLAY THE PART OF THE UNDERSTANDING GREEK. PLUS I AM SURE I KNOW MORE ABOUT & HAVE HAD CONTACT WITH MORE ALBANIANS , KOSOVARS, GHEGS ,TOSKS AND SHQIPTARE' OR WHATEVER FLAVOR YOU FINALLY DECIDED TO CALL YOURSELVES THIS CENTURY THAN ANY GREEKS YOU CLAIM TO KNOW.   

Edited by Konstantine - 14-Sep-2007 at 03:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 01:10
BY THE WAY THE NAME KASTRIOTIS IS STILL A SURNAME IN GREECE TODAY. CAN YOU SAY THE SAME FOR ANY ALBANIANS IN MODERN ALBANIA?

Edited by Konstantine - 15-Sep-2007 at 06:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 03:21
ABOUT THE KOMAN GROUP THEORY:THE ILLYRIANS BY DR.WILKES OF LONDON . Wilkes is the foremost living authority on the Illyrians. Yet his work only attempts to identify the Illyrians not only as Albanian but Bosnian as well as Southern Slavic. This information broadens the already established fact that the Illyrians left linguistic and genetic traces all over the balkans but also puts to rest the ALBANIAN MONOPOLY ON ILLYRIAN CULTURAL ROOTS. THE KOMAN GROUP THEORY BECOMES A MOOT POINT. His is the latest comprehensive work on the Illyrian people. In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:
"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORTER AND DARKER SKINNED SIMMILAR TO
MODERN ALBANIANS."
Wilkes has only proven through science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage.
John Wilkes correctly puts small percentages of Illyrian descendants among contemporary Southern Slavs, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and south-western Serbia. Wilkes hints that the remenants are slavicized Illyrians and he leans on C.S Coon who insists that Albanians are of mixed Slavic, Italian,Turkish, Armenoid and Illyrian origin.

This work was published in 1991 and based on the newest excavations undertaken in ex-Illyria. Wilkes brings out plenty of the most recent archaeological and anthropological evidence which other's in his field did not have access to.

Ten years after he published this work, the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study proved him correct. Modern science has dealt a huge blow to Albanian attempts to usurpe the Illyrian legacy. He was a decade ahead of his time. Because of his work, many academics within Albania have also come out in favour of accepting the new findings; namely: Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu. They are joined by many international critics of the now debunked Albanian-Illyrian theory: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others.

Read this book. Keep in mind that it is based on evidence older works did not have access to and keep in mind that science has proven Wilkes correct ten years after he published this long-overdue honest and objective & thorough analysis of the legacy of one of Europe's oldest civilizations. The Albanians can no longer unjustly monopolize a whole people as they have done in the past."                                                                    THE ALBANO-ILLYRIAN PROPAGANDA INSTITUTED ON A POPULACE AND THE WORLD BY ENVER HOJA IS A POINT OF VIEW PROMOTES OBVIOUS MODERN ALBANIAN POLITICAL AGENDAS FOR ALBANIAN UNITY OF THE ALBANIAN POPULACE IN THE KOSOVO/MACEDONIA/SERBIAN REGIONS.    IS THIS A COINSIDENCE? I DONT THINK SO . THE ILLYRIANS WERE AN ANCIENT PEOPLES WHO WERE INFLUENCED BY THE HALSTAAT CULTURE, THE URN CULTURES AND THE CELTS OF THE BALKANS AND SOME ILLYRIAN TRIBES MAY EVEN HAVE BEEN CONNECTED TO THE INDEGINOUS PREHISTORIC CULTURES OF THE AREA I.E. PAIONIANS,PELASGIANS, TRIBALIANS, DACIANS & THRACIANS. THIS WOULD MAKE THE ILLYRIANS NOT THE ALBANIANS CLOSER TO THE PROTO PRE GREEK SPEAKING SPHERE OF LINGUISTIC AND CULTURAL INFLUENCE OF THE LATE COPPER EARLY BRONZE AGE THAT BROUGHT FORTH THE INTRODUCTION OF THE MYCENAEANS. THE ALBANIANS FAMOUS FOR THEIR CULTURAL ADAPTABILITY AND THEIR PROPENSITY FOR LINGUISTIC BORROWINGS FROM SLAVIC (SERBIAN) - TURKIC (AVARS) AND BYZANTINE GREEK. ALBANIAN IS USUALLY IDENTIFIED AS STATEM LANGUAGE . RECENTLY ILLYRIAN HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS AN ORIGINAL (KENTUM) LINGUISTIC SUBSTRATUM OF INDO EUROPEAN LANGUAGE TREE. HENCE ALBANIAN CANNOT HAVE HAD ILLYRIAN AS A PARENT LANGUAGE. I DONT WANT TO DRAW YOU A DIAGRAM I AM SURE YOU ARE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO FIGURE IT OUR OR PICK UP A BOOK SOME PLACE THAT CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU. HERE IS SOME CURRENT SOURCE MATERIAL TO CLEAR UP ANY QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT HAVE.                                                                                    

On the territory of today's Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some,
first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium. The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names.


When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today?s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.


Already in 1995 at the University of Skopje, it became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the Albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched rom the law faculty to the albanological studies and here, contrary to what was being said and written not only by the Albanian, but also by our, Yugoslavian scholars, contrary to what is being taught not only in the Albanian language schools (in Albania, as well as in Macedonia), but also in the schools of ³south-slavic² languages, I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in Albanology has said this to me. They continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous Pelasgoillyrian descendants.


I discovered that by chance, studying the Albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the Illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate.


Since the Albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can not be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars...
Paul,
Hirt,
Vaigand,
Tomashek,
Georgiev,
Pushcariu

...and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania.


Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I've added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor are they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the Albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and Illyrian origin.


Via those lies, they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the fishing line of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital.


The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the Albanian pseudo science about their Illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyrom, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours.


Since in the publication YLBERI (comes out since 1993, in Geneva) and especially through my albanological collection THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ALBANIANS I demonstrated in written form my points of view, the Albanian academic Vincent Golleti, in the printed media stated: "The stances of Kaplan Burovich about the albanological problems, especially on the problem of the origin of the Albanians, need to be greeted most warmly, while the studies which he publishes in relation with those problems should be propagated throughout the whole of the scholarly world".


After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others.


I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths and courageously accept the scientific truth. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage. Because, believe me, that is not easy at all, as the extreme Albanian nationalists, chauvinists and racists led by Ismail Kadare, through the most severe forms of chicanery and satanising are attempting to silence us at any cost.


They mentioned Dr Adrian Qosi when he stated that the hypothesis for the Illyrian origin of the Albanians is unfounded, added: But it is better not to talk about that because they will declare us anti-Albanians². And they did.                                                                                                                                     BY Dr. Kaplan Resuli

Edited by Konstantine - 15-Sep-2007 at 02:09
I would rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent than in the extent of my powers and dominion.
Alexander the Great
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