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Forum LockedGerman POW camp for Soviet POWs in Święty Krzyż

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    Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 16:32
German POW camp for Soviet POWs in Święty Krzyż near Kielce (Poland), was in fact a real death camp...

The camp was created in 1941 - as one of four sub-camps of Stalag XII C.

I was there two years ago. It was a very sad place during WW II.

Between 1941 and 1943 over 6,000 Soviet prisoners died or were murdered there (the majority of them lost their lives during the first year)... It is said that only around 100 - 200 POWs survived until the liberation of the camp...

Three other sub-camps of Stalag XII C - in Bliżyn, Kielce and Końskie - were also sad places of suffering cruel agonies. Around 37,000 Soviet POWs lost their lives there between 1941 and 1944 (11,000 in camp "Kamienna" in Kielce, 20,000 in camp in Końskie, 6,000 in camp in Bliżyn).

They had not enough food and terrible conditions of life... what am I talking about - terrible conditions of death !!

When the Germans noticed that prisoners are eating each other and also parts of their own bodies, they made an inscription on the wall in Russian and in German:

"Cannibalism and self-cannibalism will be severely punished".

They weren't even allowed to eat themselves...

This terrible insciption is still there...

--------------------------------

Edit:

Massive grave of 6,000 Russian Soldiers cruelly murdered, starved to death, or forced to cannibalism or self-cannibalism by the Germans in Święty Krzyż between 1941 and 1943 (the majority during the first year)... :





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 16:33
Germans haven't recognized those terrible crimes yet and they haven't admitted their guilt. Criminals and murderers who are responsible for them and participated in them, have not been punished yet:

Quote [...] Podobozu w Kielcach pilnował Wehrmacht. Polscy śledczy ustalili nazwę jednostki, nazwiska dowódców, materiały przesłali do Republiki Federalnej Niemiec. - Niemcy śledztwa poumarzali. Ustalili, że komendant obozu nie żyje. Uznali, że nie można udowodnić zamiaru zgładzenia wszystkich jeńców, bo dowództwo Wehrmachtu wykonywało tylko obowiązujący wtedy rozkaz rozstrzeliwania komisarzy politycznych, członków partii komunistycznej i Żydów sowieckich. Udali głupich; z materiałów wynikało wyraźnie, że rozmyślnie zgładzono wszystkich jeńców - twierdzi profesor Jankowski.


"[...] Sub-camp in Kielce was guarded by the Wehrmacht. Polish investigatives established the exact name of the unit, the names of commanders, they sent materials to the Federal Republic of Germany. - Germans abandoned all investigations. They established that the commandant of the camp is dead. They recognized that it is not possible to prove the intention of anihilating all of prisoners, because the Wehrmacht leadership was only fulfiling an order which was in force then, to shoot all political commissioners, members of the Communist Party and Soviet Jews. "They simulated idiots; from the materials it appeared clearly that all prisoners had been murdered deliberately" - professor Jankowski maintains."

Quote O kieleckim obozie, podobnie jak o sąsiednich, wiedzieli przedstawiciele Państwa Podziemnego i nie przestali się nim interesować nawet gdy Niemcy ujawnili sowiecką zbrodnię w Katyniu. Wywiad AK bardzo bacznie obserwował, co się działo w tych obozach, zachowały się niektóre meldunki. Jesienią 1941 roku została wydana deklaracja podziemnych władz, że jest to zamierzone działanie mające na celu zgładzenie wszystkich jeńców. Nazwano to "czynem szczególnie ohydnym, bo zastosowanym wobec mężnego przeciwnika, wziętego do niewoli w uczciwej walce". [...]


"Representatives of Underground Poland knew about the camp in Kielce, as well as about its neighbours [camps in Końskie, Święty Krzyż and Bliżyn - Domen], and they did not stop to be interested in it even after the Germans exposed the Soviet crimes in Katyn. Intelligence of Home Army was carefully observing what was happening in these camps, some of reports have been preserved. In Autumn of 1941 a declaration of underground government was published, which revealed that it was deliberated action, purpose of which was to exterminate all of POWs. It was called "an act which is especcialy abominable, because is applied against courageous enemy, captured in honest combat." [...]"

Edited by Domen - 13-Jan-2009 at 16:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 23:34
Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:

Germans haven't recognized those terrible crimes yet and they haven't admitted their guilt. Criminals and murderers who are responsible for them and participated in them, have not been punished yet:
I know I shouldn't answer, but I must. It is correct, there are or better were a lot of Germans that weren't punished for crimes during the Nazi time and WWII. But German justice persecuted Nazis ( not as much as I wished to) and they do it still today. Germans are apologizing for the crimes of WWII since now nearly 65 years, to say Germans havn't recognized crime against especially Russian POW'S is, to be handsome, great nonsense. Perhaps you can tell me if Poles, just perhaps, committed crimes to German soldiers and civilians after May 1945? And if, just perhaps, crimes were committed, were they ever persecuted, has Poland ever apologized for those, just hypothetical crimes?
It is now very clear for me that you are not interested in history but just in some ultra nationalist rubbish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 09:11
Professor Jankowski is an "ultra-nationalist rubbish" Stern Smile ??? I don't think so.

Quote
to say Germans havn't recognized crime against especially Russian POW'S is, to be handsome, great nonsense.


I know that they recognized crimes commited against Russian POW's in general, but they did not fully recognize this particular one - as you can read from those two quotations from the article above.

Quote
Perhaps you can tell me if Poles, just perhaps, committed crimes to German soldiers and civilians after May 1945? And if, just perhaps, crimes were committed, were they ever persecuted, has Poland ever apologized for those, just hypothetical crimes?


Sorry, but - please tell me - who did resume friendly Polish-German relations (or even any Polish-German relations in general) after the Second World War. Polish bishops or German bishops?

Because as far as I know it was the Polish Church - not Germans - who wrote a letter to the German Church:

"We forgive and we ask for forgiveness".

Am I right?


Edited by Domen - 14-Jan-2009 at 09:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 19:26
church has nothing to do with what Beorna asked. the church was in fact a colaborator of Nazis and Ustashas in Croatia.

afaik, no individual camps have been identified but the mistreatment of PoW camps in general has been aknowledged.


Edited by Temujin - 14-Jan-2009 at 19:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 02:33
Asking a nation to apologize for every crime committed during every war is ridiculous. What the hell did decedents of  German soldiers who did atrocities, ever do to have to apologize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 03:41
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

Asking a nation to apologize for every crime committed during every war is ridiculous. What the hell did decedents of  German soldiers who did atrocities, ever do to have to apologize.


Is not ridicuous. It helps people hate those crimes and form a conscience that will stop repeating them. Today most of Germans feel real sorry for those atrocities and this is due to actions of condemning them by officialities and other representatives.

Romanian authorities under the Antonescu regime too commited crimes during WW2, 420.000 Jews and lesser Roma people have been murdered, yet the Romanian people know little about these and there is not a strong feeling against this, on the contrary, there is contestation and support for general Antonescu who generally is perceived as a hero, when he was a monster. So, official apologize actions are necessary.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 06:11
Asking for apologys at the end of the war is one thing. Doing it 65 years later to a new generation is pointless.  
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 17:43
in fact that apology thing is more or less pointless. i mean who apologized? no nazi ever apologized for what they did, only the new German liberal government did who was in opposition to the Nazis anyways. to apologize would only make sense if those who actually comitted those crimes apologize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 21:14
exactly my point and if some Nazi assholes can gun down innocents with no remorse what makes you think they would ever apologize. Its like your mother apologizing to somebody for something you did. 
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 21:15
But i guess its more of a gesture from the whole country to show that they are ashamed of those wrong doings.
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 12:09
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

in fact that apology thing is more or less pointless. i mean who apologized? no nazi ever apologized for what they did, only the new German liberal government did who was in opposition to the Nazis anyways. to apologize would only make sense if those who actually comitted those crimes apologize.


Quite, besides the Nazis have long since lost the war and paid the price. Soviet however, a state with far greater atrocities on its record than the Nazis ever had the time to amass, did not show comparable remorse for GULag, Stalin's purges, ethnic cleansing or its numerous war crimes, all of which resulted in deats numbering in the tens of millions, and that's not even counting the millions soldiers who died fighting the Germans.

That being said there should be no need for the Russians or Germans to neither forgive nor blame each other. Neither side had any moral superiority and the horrors they inflicted on each other equals out any question of blame or forgiveness. Their remorse should be reserved for those who suffered within the respective states; unfavoured ethnic groups, political dissidents, sexual deviants as well as random innocents who didn't file under any of these. In the last case I'm thinking particularly of the Soviet civilians, mainly Russians and Ukrainians, who were purged by quota rather than guilt at Stalin's behest.
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