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Forum LockedGeorgia's future?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 06:44
I hope that Georgian people will be able to build their future without the idiot who brought their country to the useless war.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 06:47
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

The modern standards. Georgia is slightly better equipped but neither can be compared to the US or Turkey... 
 
Very weird information since most of the Georgian "equipment" are old weapons left from the Soviet army of the 1980th.
 
There are elite troops though trained and equiped by Americans but they didn't reach even 10% of the Georgian armed forces.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 06:53
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I hope that Georgian people will be able to build their future without the idiot who brought their country to the useless war.


It is foolish of Georgia to enter this war without clear western or NATO backing.

USA, NATO, EU did not openly or strongly support Georgia at this point.

So Georgia is facing Russia alone.

It is very odd that Georgia entered this war with South Ossetia with no clear outside support.

Their opponent is Russia.

There must be more research on this strange point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 07:00
Why Saakashili's idiotism can't be the explanation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 07:06
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Why Saakashili's idiotism can't be the explanation?


If true, he is really a poor tactician.

Dangerous for a state to be ruled by someone that reckless.

I think everyone in this forum can agree that it was suicidal for Georgia to go against Russia alone, with no support whatsoever.


Edited by Bankotsu - 10-Aug-2008 at 07:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 07:16
I honestly think he has serious mental problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 07:37
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

The modern standards. Georgia is slightly better equipped but neither can be compared to the US or Turkey... 
 
Very weird information since most of the Georgian "equipment" are old weapons left from the Soviet army of the 1980th.
 
There are elite troops though trained and equiped by Americans but they didn't reach even 10% of the Georgian armed forces.
 
You know, that was my assumption too.   But I also assumed that rider would know more it than I did......   But maybe the conflict would be limited to the elite troops level or is it too late for that already?  I somehow don't think it would be a full on war.  I don't think either side wants the total destruction of the region for many reasons.    Even then, wouldn't Russia have least as good or better elite forces?   I think it will depend on how long the Georgian government can hold off the Russians and what kind of support they can generate from the West.  I can see it going either way but most likely the West will just bark in the media but not confront Russia.    And maybe how long the Georgian government can hold off the Russians will be depending on  how much support they can generate from the people of Georgia themselves.   If there is a great support for the government or anti-Russia sentiment the West can still support the guerrilla warfare without confronting Russia directly, kinda like Afghanistan in the 80's.   Hey, Samart, how would you compare this to Afghanistan in the 80's from the Russian point of view?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 07:59
As long as Russia doesn't occupy Georgian territory, I don't think there will be guerrilla warfare.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 08:34
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

 
 
You know, that was my assumption too.   But I also assumed that rider would know more it than I did......   But maybe the conflict would be limited to the elite troops level or is it too late for that already?  I somehow don't think it would be a full on war.  I don't think either side wants the total destruction of the region for many reasons.    Even then, wouldn't Russia have least as good or better elite forces?   I think it will depend on how long the Georgian government can hold off the Russians and what kind of support they can generate from the West.  I can see it going either way but most likely the West will just bark in the media but not confront Russia.    And maybe how long the Georgian government can hold off the Russians will be depending on  how much support they can generate from the people of Georgia themselves.   If there is a great support for the government or anti-Russia sentiment the West can still support the guerrilla warfare without confronting Russia directly, kinda like Afghanistan in the 80's.   Hey, Samart, how would you compare this to Afghanistan in the 80's from the Russian point of view?   
 
The Georgian equipment is inferior to the Russian. The Russian army actually underwent modernization after the bitter lessons of the first Chechen war. Also current Government is pumping huge money into the modernization of the army.
Georgian elite forces are trained by Americans, I think they have a so-called anti-terrorist batallion or something like that, are also inferior to the Russian special forces. Which have both a better experience (2 Chechen wars) and better equipment. Some pieces of American and other Western weapons that Georgian elite troops have actually make their life much harder since the overwhelming majority of the Georgian army is equipped with the Russian made weapons which means that the elite troops might face the problem of the lack of ammunition if the fighting intensifies. In any case, only a tiny pieace of Georgian army consists of this "elite troops." My observation is that the Western "equipment" of Georgian army primary relates to the NATO style looking helmots and gear, but nothing more. All the weapons including tanks, artillery, aircrafts and hand weapons all are made in the USSR.
 
Moreover, Russian airforce complitely dominates the air above Georgia, it simply makes Georgian victory impossible. However, Russia still hasn't unleashed its full power.
I don't think it wants to escalate the conflict beyond the borders of Southern Ossetia.
 
The Afghanistan and Ossetian situation are harldy comparable. That time the SU invaded Afghanistan, this time Georgia openly attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers.
This time the actions of the Russian army enjoy both complete support of the Russian people and also local Ossetian population.
 
Also this is a much lower scale operation compare to Afghanistan for the Russian/Soviet army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 08:57
Here are some links on Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan and CIA operations:

General Valentin Varennikov interview:

...[The invasion] was supported first of all by Brezhnev ... [partly] because of Taraki's murder. ... According to [Nikolai] Ogarkov, who was head of the General Staff, more than once he saw Brezhnev speaking in a very agitated way about Amin having acted very badly, and saying that the cruel murder of the general secretary [Taraki] and his comrade couldn't be allowed...

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

...Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/

A KGB perspective of Afghan War

...Well before Amin's murder, two divisions, specially made up of Farsi-speaking troops from neighboring Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan had been assembled along the frontier. They all had Afghan uniforms.They were supposed to make our intervention go moresmoothly. In retrospect, it was an error...

http://www.afghana.com/SocietyAnd




Edited by Bankotsu - 10-Aug-2008 at 09:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 09:00
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

[QUOTE=King Kang of Mu] 
  
Also this is a much lower scale operation compare to Afghanistan for the Russian/Soviet army.
 
Let's us hope so for everyone involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 12:51
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

The modern standards. Georgia is slightly better equipped but neither can be compared to the US or Turkey... 
 
Very weird information since most of the Georgian "equipment" are old weapons left from the Soviet army of the 1980th.
 
There are elite troops though trained and equiped by Americans but they didn't reach even 10% of the Georgian armed forces.

Russian info? Georgian info?

As I understand it, a large part of Georgian weaponry (especially artillery and tanks) have been provided by the Turkish and the States and their general mobilized infantry should be more modernly armed than the Russians. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 12:52
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I hope that Georgian people will be able to build their future without the idiot who brought their country to the useless war.
 

I hope that you don't bring Mr. President into every topic in AE. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 12:54
As far as I know, the Russian modernization hasn't yet completely begun - the artillery, navy and mobile infantry should still be equipped with USSR units up to 95%... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 18:22
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Russian info? Georgian info?

As I understand it, a large part of Georgian weaponry (especially artillery and tanks) have been provided by the Turkish and the States and their general mobilized infantry should be more modernly armed than the Russians. 

 
American info. They indeed bought some new weapons in Ukraine and Czech republic (very few from the US and other western countries) and Israel upgraded old Soviet fighter jets. But most of their weapons are still good old Soviet stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 20:00
The American "modernisation" was based for the brigade that the sent to Iraq. It was equipped for counter in surgency. Light troops who are mincemeat when facing any mechanised force; like the Russians. The Russians also have abslolute air supremacy. Its a cakewalk.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 20:56
Russian MOD has confirmed that 2 batallions of experienced ethnic Chechen spetznaz units were sent to Ossetia. It looks like a complete disaster for the Georgian army.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 11-Aug-2008 at 20:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 21:34
 Why is georgia still resisting. This is only harming their economy and They cannot gain this war..


Edited by Mortaza - 11-Aug-2008 at 21:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 21:58

Apparently they don't want to sign the afreement of nonivasion of SO and Abhazia. But they will sign it anyway.

Saw BBC at 9 today. As usual, Georgian MP, "neofascist state Russia", "best democracy in postsoviet area", dead Georgian civilians, comments from Washington. And no  interview with a Russian authorities representative. No surprise. This is definitely not a fair providing of an information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 22:14
English ITV1 news at 10 are apparently more fair. At least they show both points of view and demonstrate casualties from both sides.
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