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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Georgian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 03:39
Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:


The Georgian Bagratouni family rulled from 1024-1810(?) not 768...but
still, its considered the longest royal family to hold some sort of
power, not 2nd.

The Georgian word for Georgia itself (Sakartvelo) has been coined in
the early 11th century as the first mark of a somewhat unified Georgian
"nation", as its name implies mostly under the Kingdom of "kartli",
which Bagratuni (Georgian) princes have rulled from 8th century; being a vassal to
Arabs, Armenian Bagratunis and at the end Byzantines, before becoming
more or less independent.


     Bagratuni is armenian royal family and Georgian is Bagration. and all georgian kings were Bagration. NOT bagratuni. In 1024 King was Giorgi I (note: He built the great church Svetickhoveli)one of the greatest king of Georgia and he was Bagrationi not Bagratuni! And all kings of gerrgia were Bagrationi. if you like i can upload family tree of Bagrations. and u will see that kings of georgia r Bagrations and not bagratunis.

P.S. as you see on maps i have upload, in medieval Armenia was part of Georgia including Yerevan.

    

Edited by Georgian - 28-Jul-2006 at 04:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 04:45
why r u fighting with eachother. Geurgian or armenian both the same. what is diffrent between ur nations. armenian and georgian are very similar and i don't see any diffrent between them except their languageBig smile


Edited by sirius99 - 28-Jul-2006 at 04:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Georgian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 05:30
Originally posted by sirius99 sirius99 wrote:


why r u fighting with eachother. Geurgian or armenian both the same. what is diffrent between ur nations. armenian and georgian are very similar and i don't see any diffrent between them except their language

    
and why were Scotland fight with england or irland with england same language, religion and so on... scotland and english are same for us we dont see any diffrent between them.
Armenia is Armenia and Georgia is Georgia, both have own history and own culture.
    

Edited by Georgian - 28-Jul-2006 at 05:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Datuna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 05:49
Becouse there's only one small reason.-there's deference of culture between  Scotland and England. And one common- wars against eachother.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 07:47
I dont disagree with you Georgian. Before the 11th century when
mentioning Bagratunis, the author referred to them as Georgian
Bagratunis. After 11th century, when a Georgian state came into
existance he referred to them as Bagrations.

Originally posted by Georgian Georgian wrote:

P.S. as you see on maps i have upload, in medieval Armenia was part of Georgia including Yerevan.


Yes, I am aware. The Armenian nobles asked Ani (the capital) to be taken under Georgian rule when they were fighting the Seljuks. Moreover, Georgia never fought Armenia to get those lands. Because of the Seljuk raids almost all of the Armenian nobles deicded to unite under Georgian rule than be decimated.

Do you know the reason why, the Georgian Branch of Bagratunis (Bagrations) survived into the 12th century and became independent, while some of Armenia's branch largely moved to Cilicia (and set up a state there) and the remaining chose to be united with Georgia?

    
    
    

Edited by mamikon - 28-Jul-2006 at 12:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 09:02
Who said that Armenians and Georgians are enemies?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Datuna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 10:08

u r right.....they just have different friends and that's all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 10:50
Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

Qipchaks never ruled Georgia. They were assimilated and Christianized as early as 11th century AD, and were fighting in Georgian armies against the Seljuks...at least according to a book I read.

The Bagratunis ruled Georgia from 10th-19th centuries; the last remnants of the Bagratuni royal house was destroyed by Russia in the 19th century, many of the members were killed while others were sent to inner Russia or western Europe.
 
so the kipchacks only ruled the south of the caucasus the mesheti turk region or what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Georgian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 15:02
    
    

Edited by Georgian - 29-Jul-2006 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Georgian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 13:38
    Hi,
I'm going to upload Bagrations family tree. Here is Bagrations of Tao Krarjeti


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 15:25
Interesting, where did you get the tree from? (not that I am saying its wrong...but I always like to see the source)

by the way, what is "msaker"? (as in, Ashot msaker)


Edited by mamikon - 02-Aug-2006 at 15:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 16:47
     msaker means "meat eater" in Armenian...does it mean anything in Georgian? I know there was an Armenian king named Ashot Msager sometime in the middle ages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 18:54
yeah I know...I was wondering if he knew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 16:39


Armenia and Georgia are for me two fascinating countries.

I found these images and information about some of Georgia's monuments:


Mtskheta

Archaeological excavations have shown that it was flourishing in the Bronze Age (3000-2000 BC). A rich hierarchical society developed, based on agriculture, crafts, and trade. The 4th centmy BC saw the emergence
of powerful Georgian tribes. With the collapse of the empire of Alexander the Great the east Georgian kingdom
of Kartli-Iberia came into being with its capital at Mtskheta.

The city was destroyed by Pompey the Great after his defeat of Mithridates the Great of Pontus in 65 BC.


The church of Jvari in Mtskheta was rebuilt in 586-605 to cover a wooden cross put here by St. Nino in 4th century:



Shio-Mgvime Monastery

The earliest building the Monastery of St. John the Baptist a cruciform church, very plain and strict in its design, dates from c. 560s-580s, and the caves curved by monks are still visible around the monastery and along the road leading to the complex.

Shio-Mgvime quickly turned into the largest monastic community in Georgia and by the end of the 6th century it was populated by as many as 2,000 monks.






Ateni Sioni          
     
It is well-known medieval temple of the 7th century. The temple's architecture is executed in the same style as the Jvari temple in Mtskheta. It's walls are full of remarkable mural paintings of the XI century. Its facade is decorated by great number of ingraved stone ornaments.






Gergeti Church

The church is situated on the right bank of the river Chkheri (the left tributary of the river Terek), at an elevation of 1800 meters, under Mt. Kazbegi. It was built in the 14th century.







Uplistsikhe

The cave city of Uplistsikhe was a functioning city by late Bronze Age times of 1000 BC.

Prior to the introduction of Christianity to Georgia in the 4th century, Uplistsikhe was a prominent pagan holy place and the 9th century brick church of Uplistulis Eklesia (Prince's Church) was built directly over a pagan sun temple. During the early Middle Ages, when the city was at its peak of development, there was a population of perhaps 20,000 living in the 700 caves (of which only 150 remain).





Gurjaani Kvelatsminda

This is a rare and very precious example of the moment of transition in architecture in 8th century. It remember Carolingian architecture in athmosphere.





Bolnisi Church

The earliest known inscription in the Georgian language is to be found on the faade of this late 5th church.





More photos:
http://armazi.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/manana/georg/archit.htm

Edited by Menumorut - 20-Jan-2007 at 22:00

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 18:39
Gelati

The Gelati Monastery was founded by the King of Georgia David the Builder (1089-1125) in 1106.

The Gelati Monastery for a long time remained one of the main cultural and enlightening centers in old Georgia. It had an Academy which employed the most celebrated Georgian scientists - theologians and philosophers, many of whom had previously been active at various orthodox monasteries abroad or at the Mangan Academy in Constantinople.






Nekresi Monastery

It has preserved buildings and ruins of various periods, such as a small basilica dating from the 4th century (one of the earliest basilicas in Georgia), an Episcopal palace dating from the 8th-9th centuries, a 16th century tower as well as ruins of other residential and domestic structures and small chapels.





More photos:

http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~ci4/georgien/foto/architektur.htm
http://www.expatmonkey.com/photos/georgia_tbilisi/index.htm
http://www.expatmonkey.com/photos/georgia_racha/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/rlankenau/kutaisi
http://www.kaukasus.dk/galleri1.htm
http://vdjorbenadze.tripod.com/Ateni/Ateni.htm
http://www2.newpaltz.edu/~meadorc/Nekresi.html
http://www.patriarchate.ge/art/5.htm
http://mamuli.net/Hosting/?iam=IG&pn=742

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shounigs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 19:19
I came across this site unintentionally and I observed a comment or two from a few people that were so transparent, and idiotic, that I elected to comment and move on. When you guys make comments or want to defend your point of view or start a conversation such as:"(I think that Georgia is the one of the strongest kingdom of east Europe in Medieval. (I think so and you?))"  or " (Bagratuni is a Georgian name)" and many more, I suggest you hit the archives and the International books to uncover some of the true details about what, when and where, and I don't mean the propaganda history rewritten books that exist in your respective countries. Such as Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia, Ossentia, Abkhazia etc.
 
You know what Happens when you ASSUME! This makes the properly educated people to ignore you and laugh at your ignorance and biased nature, which is so typical in those parts of the world. stealing from the neighbours and claiming everything good and descent as your own and shove under the carpet everything bad (this is a metaphor, not real carpet!) or through the dirt on the other culture calling them names such as uncouth.
 
If you gentlemen wish to initiate a conversation you don't start your conversation by claming that you are Next to God or the biggest thing that happened since whatever time frame you wish to cover.
 
It is this jealousy and not respecting other cultures puts almost all the countries in the caucuses in that environment. 
 
Just in case everyone is wondering who am I, let me tell you, I have been studying and compiling the history, geography, politics  and the geo-political environment for over 40 years with thousands of authenticated archives from around the world.
 
In case you are wondering about this entire page who is closes to the truth, or as you guys will refer to it whose side am I, and I am not in anyone's side, and I belong to none of the cultures mentioned here, but as always the two gentlemen came closest tot eh truth are (Artaxiad) (ArmenianSurvival) (Zagros) (Cyrus) I don't know what nationality are they but in my 40 years of digging I came across one thread of reality that the Armenians always have defended themselves and never asked for what is not theirs, and in general the noble cultures never stoop to the lowest level to defend their case, the proof is in the pudding, and the puddings are all their for those smart enough o look for it.
 
Go and learn your respective histories no matter how disappointed you may become.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 03:57
Hi mates!
 
I think we all know where this "Where does who's comes from?" discussion will lead us to: eventually some Grey Wolf will show up saying that the Bagrationids were great warriors so they were surely TURKS! And after a bitter change of words with some Armenians and the inevitable Greek or Cypriot-Greek, this topic will be CLOSED.

 

As for this discussion, it seems to me a little bit futile, as noble families tended to marry with foreign people.

As for second-born sons the case is more acute, since they often went abroad in search of adventure, fame, wealth, lands, a court/military position or just a good catch (a rich widow or, even better, a rich, pretty maiden!). When settled, these guys would become a foreigners vassals, and their offspring would acquire that same foreign nationality (if we can use this concept in the Middle Ages).

 

Let me give you some Portuguese/Spanish examples (Im Portuguese so Im more familiar with these):

1 D. Joao de Castro and D. Vasco da Gama are two famous Portuguese men of the late XVth/ early XVIth c.. They rightfully belong to the Greatest Portuguese Ever group. But D Joao comes from a branch of the Castro family whose origin lies in Galicia, the same happening to the Gama family (a branch of the Ulloa). Galicia belongs to Castile from the 11th c. AD. Now, D. Joao and D. Vasco, are they Portuguese (as everybody thinks, including them?) or Spanish?

2 After the Portuguese/Castilian war of 1474/1475, many Galician/Castilian nobles who supported the faction of Dona Joana Beltraneja left their homes and came to Portugal, where they were granted lands and titles by D. Afonso V, settled and raised families. In time they became Portuguese, the same happening to their families. Or were they Castilian, generation after generation?

3 During the Portuguese Dynastic Crisis of 1383-1385 most of the old noble families supported D. Joao I of Trastamara (from Castile), while the younger noble families supported D. Joao I, Master of the Order of Aviz (from Portugal). The Trastamara party lost and the surviving Portuguese nobles of the older families fled to Castile where the received lands and titles. They were Portuguese, yes, but Castilian vassals. And their children, were they Portuguese or Castilian?

4 The above mentioned D. Joao I, Master of Aviz, was the grandson of Prince D. Pedro and his mistress, Dona Ines de Castro. This Ines, as a Castro, came from Galicia and was a relative to the later D Joao de Castro presented in #1 Uuuppps, perhaps we were all wrong and D. Joao, Master of Aviz, was actually a Castilian????? Perhaps we, Portuguesa, are Spanish??? Oh My God, I'm Spanish!!!! Smile

 

Now, lets get to the topic, shall we?

 

I was searching for some information about the Medieval Georgian army but I didnt found much.

I read some stuff like The Georgian Chronicle (transl. by Robert Bedrosian), online; Mikhael Goreliks Warriors of Eurasia, Montvert; and David Nicolles Medieval Warfare Source Book Christian Europe and its Neighbours, Brockhampton Press. Theres not much in it, though.

It seems that the Georgians and Armenians alike had lots of archers, surely lots of spearmen as well, light cavalry (the Quipchak Georgian subjects were horse-archers) and armoured cavalry (I dont know if the armour included the horses as well).

I dont really know the ratio between cavalry/infantry, though a (Cilician) Armenian army sent by King Hetum to help the Hulegu had 12,000 cavalry and 40,000 infantry (History of the Tartars or The Flower of Histories of the East, online).

 

Would someone give better info on this subject?

 

Sikander

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 14:13
Georgia is Eastern Europe?

Azerbaijan located right to Georgia, if Georgia is then Azerbaijan is too right?

I know Origins of Georgians is European but located Georgia in Europe?.

North Parts of Azerbaijan and Georgia located in Europe but not whole i think.

And why u guys put armenia into it?

armenians is anatolians and have nothing to do with Georgians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 14:17
Originally posted by Emil Diniyev Emil Diniyev wrote:

armenians is anatolians and have nothing to do with Georgians.


     Armenians are Anatolian, but part of their homeland is in the transcaucasus, which borders Georgia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 14:19
Our country located in TransCaucasus too and We Have more Parts in Caucasus then armenians. Now We are close to Georgians?

Georgians and Armenians is litte close but not soo much.
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