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Forum LockedGenetic legacy of the Xiongnu

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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Genetic legacy of the Xiongnu
    Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 22:14
In the last 5 years, the analysis of 60 skulls in a Mongolian grave during the Xiongnu period has provided a clearer idea to the DNA of the Xiongnu.
On one hand, it is revealed that while 90% of Xiongnu DNA are Asia, 10% are of European origin, indicating that European and Asian populations had intermixed before the great migrations recorded in history. It has also been demonstrated that Anatolian Turks today have inherited some genes from the Xiongnu.
 
One curiosity I have is: the Xiongnu are claimed by so many peoples today as their ancestors: from Hungarians in the West to Uighurs in the East.
Now with the Xiongnu's DNA come into the light, it should be relatively easy to determine to which extent are modern populations such as the Hungarians, Bulgarians, Turks, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Tatars, Kirgiz, Mongols etc. descended from the Xiongnu.
 
Many Xiongnu also invaded China and were absorbed into the Han ethnicity. Many Chinese today could also possibly descend from the Xiongnu.  It could also imply that many Chinese today have partly European ancestry derived from pre-historic intermixing.
 
Russians, I could imagine, have also inherited significant genes from the Xiongnu for their century-long mixing with Kipchaks, Bulgars, and Tatar populations; and these peoples were all ultimately offsprings of the Xiongnu (supposed to be at least).
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 22:39

Deep questions Calvo. Maybe our freindly genetic fiends will help solve some of these riddles. As they say, "Scratch a Russian and you find a Tartar".



Edited by Seko - 13-Nov-2008 at 22:40
Copyright © 2004 Seko
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 10:18
On one hand, it is revealed that while 90% of Xiongnu DNA are Asia, 10% are of European origin, indicating that European and Asian populations had intermixed before the great migrations recorded in history. It has also been demonstrated that Anatolian Turks today have inherited some genes from the Xiongnu.


If 'population mixing' happened also before the great migrations recorded in history as you wrote in the first sentence, then how do you know that the Anatolian Turks have inherited some genes from the Xiongnu? Maybe the Xiongnu inherited some genes from the Anatolians. Maybe they both inherited some genes from some previous pre-historic population movement (say, out of Mesopotamia, or out of the Caspian steppe)?

Now with the Xiongnu's DNA come into the light, it should be relatively easy to determine to which extent are modern populations such as the Hungarians, Bulgarians, Turks, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Tatars, Kirgiz, Mongols etc. descended from the Xiongnu.


You can find whose genes are most similar to theirs, but it does not mean that they are the cultural (ethnic) heirs. If you look at Turks in Turkey, they have the genes of Hittites. This does not mean that the Hittites were Turkic (despite the existence of a few morons who believe this).

It could also imply that many Chinese today have partly European ancestry derived from pre-historic intermixing.


This is of course true, but also meaningless. Everyone in the world is mixed to some degree, even Australian natives who were the only isolated people are mixed now.

Russians, I could imagine, have also inherited significant genes from the Xiongnu for their century-long mixing with Kipchaks, Bulgars, and Tatar populations; and these peoples were all ultimately offsprings of the Xiongnu (supposed to be at least).


Everybody already knows this. Could be interesting to see how the genes map to the ethnicities, but hardly a discovery.
Always try to be as radical as reality itself. - Lenin
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 18:03
It would be rather ironic if DNA analysis revealed that modern nationalities who do not claim asendancy from the Xiongnu, like the Chinese, Russians, Iranians, and Rumanians, actually inherited more genes from the Xiongnu than the peolpes who claim to be descended from them: like Turks, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Uighurs, Tatars, and Hungarians; but it could quite possibly be true.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 18:09
Genetic legacies are a shady subject especially when trying to apply them to modern day nations. There may be people within a nation with or without Gene X or Gene Y, this doesn't have any major impact on the identity of a nation.
 
The legacy of the Xiongnu is their language, state structure and society/culture etc what significance is having Xiongnu genes if such a thing even exists if you share nothing in common with them.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 10:22
Originally posted by calvo

 
 
Many Xiongnu were absorbed into the Han ethnicity.Many Chinese today could also possibly descend from the Xiongnu.It could also imply that many Chinese today have partly European ancestry derived from pre-historic intermixing.
 
 
 
 
 
It's historic fact,Xiongnu ( 匈奴 ) & Xianbei ( 鮮卑 ) were 2 major Mongolic groups assimilated into Han-Chinese ethnicity.
 
No right-minded northern Chinese would claim " barbarian " ancestry as they're continuously depicted as such in Chinese classic TV dramas & films.Once,I've asked a middle-aged northern Chinese if " northerners " are subconsciously aware of their " Mongol " heritage.The answer was ( without hesitation ) ... they should know by judging own physical build similiar to that of Mongol people ...
 
I've personally met a few broad flat faced northern Han-Chinese ( not ethnic Mongols ) with oversized head out of body proportion.You can also  find this type in either Outer Mongolia or Korea peninsula.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 13:57
Xiongnu are be believed to be of Turkic stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 14:29
 
Xiongnu's ethnic origin is still a debated topic among Western scholars & linguists.Chinese generally regard Xiongnu as " Mongol " tribe,no sources indicated otherwise.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 16:27
There is a good possibility that the Xiongnu were diverse at that time, that could also be the reason why so many ethnicities claim them as their ancestors.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 17:53
Originally posted by pebbles

 
Xiongnu's ethnic origin is still a debated topic among Western scholars & linguists.Chinese generally regard Xiongnu as " Mongol " tribe,no sources indicated otherwise.
 
What sources?  Ancient sources at the time of Xiongnu didn't even know the term "Mongol" it appears only in the 13th century.
 
On the other hand, Xiongnu Eastern neighbors - Donghu are considered the ancestors of Mongolic people.
 
Regarding Xiongnu, it's the view of the majority of scholars that they were Turkic as evidenced by linguistic analysis of their royal titles and some words that survived in the Ancient Chinese chronicles.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 18:01
Pebbles
Xiongnu's ethnic origin is still a debated topic among Western scholars & linguists.Chinese generally regard Xiongnu as " Mongol " tribe,no sources indicated otherwise.


I think maybe your confused between Xianbe and Xiongnu, Xianbe are thought to be proto-Mongols, Xiongnu are thought to be proto-Turk.

According to Chinese sources for example

Weishu 91

"高车,盖古赤狄之余种也,初号为狄历,北方以为敕勒,诸夏以为高车、丁零。其语略与匈奴同而时有小异,或云其先匈奴之甥也。"

Translation: Gaoche, all the remnants of old Chidi, original name was Dili, in the north known as Chile, among Xias known as Gaoche, Dingling. Their language is same as Xiongnu with small difference, or can be said the nephews of Xiongnu.


Gaoche/Dingling/Tiele/Chile which were different names for same people who were Turkic speakers.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 08:35
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi

 
There is a good possibility that the Xiongnu were diverse at that time, that could also be the reason why so many ethnicities claim them as their ancestors.
 
 
 
 
Highly scenario is a case of mistaken ethnic identity.Xiongnu may also be a rendering of the same name known to the Greco-Roman world as Huns.
 
According to Chinese sources,conventional theory defines 「匈奴」 empire as a confederation of nomadic tribes of various ethnic backgrounds with different spoken languages.
 
 
It's Western scholars & linguists proposed Turkic origin for Central-Asian nomadic hordes that conquered Asia Minor & eastern Europe.I don't believe they were the same tribes referenced as Xiongnu 「匈奴」 in Chinese history chronicles.For certain,those nomadic Xiongnu interacted with Oriental ancients ( now known as the Chinese ) were Mongoloid type.
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 02-Mar-2009 at 12:12
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 12:23
Originally posted by pebbles

 
Highly scenario is a case of mistaken ethnic identity.Xiongnu may also be a rendering of the same name known to the Greco-Roman world as Huns.
 
According to Chinese sources,conventional theory defines 「匈奴」 empire as a confederation of nomadic tribes of various ethnic backgrounds with different spoken languages.
 
 
It's Western scholars & linguists proposed Turkic origin for Central-Asian nomadic hordes that conquered Asia Minor & eastern Europe.I don't believe they were the same tribes referenced Xiongnu 「匈奴」 in Chinese history chronicles.For certain,those nomadic Xiongnu interacted with Oriental ancients ( now known as the Chinese ) were Mongoloid type.
 
 
The Huns were also described as being of "Mongoloid type" or partially-Mongoloid type".  Among their ranks there were probably also peoples of Iranian, Finno-Ugric, and even Germanic origin who had being absorbed into the tribal federation.
However, their customs, leadership, and warfare techniques seems to indicate that their core element was Turkic.
Other practices, such as cranial elongation, was common to both the Xiongnu and the Huns.
 
There is definitely a connection between "Huns" and the "Xiongnu". Prior to the Xiongnu's westward migration, Central Asia was populated mostly by Iranic and other Indo-European speaking people. By the 5th century, most of the region from western Mongolia to the Ukraine had been overrun by Turkic speakers.
Although no one recorded the exact history of the events, linguistic and anthropological evidence seem to suggest that large-scale westward migration of Turkic and Altaic tribes displaced, or absorbed the more ancient Iranic speakers in Central Eurasia; which coincided exactly with the dates of Xiongnu's migration.
 
Modern day Kazakh and Kyrgyz populations have inherited Iranic, Turkic, and Mongolian ancestry.
 
If you've read my first post on this thread, you'll find that DNA analisis of ancient Xiongnu graves indicate that as far back as 2200 years ago (during the Han dynasty), the Xiongnu had already absorbed a fair degree of European genes.
 
Pebbles, I tell you once again to put your American racialist views aside when studying Central Asian history. You can't divide central asians into "Black, white, asian, and Hispanic" categories like in the U.S. because it doesn't make any sense.
 
Turkic, Mongolic, and Iranic are cultura-linguistic identities; and one can be Turkic being of Mongoloid, Europoid, or mixed phenotype.
Owing to their exogamic traditions, most steppe peoples are genetically very mixed. What defines them is the language and tribal alliance.
 
 
 
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