History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum Locked"Gender Jihad"

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4030
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 11:05
At the time the Qur'an was written, it was the equivalent of the every major accomplishment women have made in the last 100 years rolled into one.

The Middle East went from a place where female babies were burried alive, where females at any stage in their life could be disposed of, and usually were, ahead of any difficulty (food shortage, etc.) to a place where women were valued and given rights far more equal to those of men than most women around the world enjoy today.

Mohammed's own wife, Khadija, was an older woman, a successful businessperson - she proposed marriage to him, not the other way around. This would have been like walking naked on your hands on water before Mohammed and Islam.

The Qur'an lifted women up using examples relevent to the time.

Some Muslims believe we should stay as we were then - with the same technology and societal structure. Others believe we must try to find meaning behind the lessons of the Qur'an and apply them to today's world.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6571
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 12:51
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Originally posted by Maju Maju wrote:



It seems that the theological discussion is not as exausted as I thought.

Anyhow, I would also like to discuss the relative weight of secular and religious law and the possibility of secular law overriding religious one for civil matters as happen, at least nominally, in most Muslim countries, where Sharia (sharias?) is not oficial.

I would like to know who those muslim countries, where shria is not law, are too! I could onoy think of Turkey.


Turkey may be the most clear and radical case but most Muslim countries have secular laws and only apply Sharia in some specific matters. I can't be sure of all the states, but I believe that Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, PNA, Syria, Iraq (under Hussein and in the transitional period), Azerbaijan, the Central Asian repulics, Pakistan (except in the tribal area), Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Zanzibar, Seychelles, Comores, Eritrea, Djibouti, Senegal, Gambia, Mali, Chad have civil law as pritoritary. All them are majoritarily Muslim countries - I have intentionately excluded multireligious states such as Albania, Lebanon or Kenya.

In fact the countries applying Sharia as dominant law are just a minority: Saudi Arabia and Iran are the most extreme cases, the other states of the Arabian peninsula fit in this pattern too, as do Sudan (partially) and (quite surprisingly) Lybia. A few sud-Saharan states may fall in this category too, including some federal states of Nigeria.

Chack also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Contemporary_Practice_of _Sharia_Law


Quote But I may be in the dark here. As Cok Gec and I have discussed laws are a major part of Islam. Some believe that the religious laws should be Koranic. Others want to add heresay which considers what the prophet might have done in a similar position. Yet not all of a states laws pertain to religion.

I think we do agree that laws left out of the Koran can be decided upon by consensus amoung those who are knowledgeable. This is a point where perhaps Cok Gec and I believe in but we represented our views from different angles. Such as religious laws based on reference to the Koran and other texts (plus problem solving debates and discussions) or laws based on the Koran and just problem solving debates and discussions.

I think that religious laws are an influence guiding secular debates. This type of jurisdiction is healthy in that it promotes inquiry into topics that may not be religiously sanctioned and can promote concensus amoung politicians. Most importantly this religious angle should not become abused or used as the sole philosophy in creating laws. Secularism protects from such an abuse.


Indeed, secularism does not mean that moral/religious considerations are not influential in making the effective secular laws that each state creates, what means is that law must not be proclaimed in temples or religious schools but in parlament and that church and state are different things. If society is deeply influenced by this or that religion or sect, that would have some efefct on how laws are pondered.

Beyond simple secularism, a concept that can be even adopted by fascists, there is the belief that human rights are above anything else. This is a sort of humanism but I don't know what specific tag can it have, as humanism is older and wider.


NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8681
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 13:22

Originally posted by Maju Maju wrote:

Turkey may be the most clear and radical case but most Muslim countries have secular laws and only apply Sharia in some specific matters. I can't be sure of all the states, but I believe that Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, PNA, Syria, Iraq (under Hussein and in the transitional period), Azerbaijan, the Central Asian repulics, Pakistan (except in the tribal area), Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Zanzibar, Seychelles, Comores, Eritrea, Djibouti, Senegal, Gambia, Mali, Chad have civil law as pritoritary. All them are majoritarily Muslim countries - I have intentionately excluded multireligious states such as Albania, Lebanon or Kenya.

In fact the countries applying Sharia as dominant law are just a minority: Saudi Arabia and Iran are the most extreme cases, the other states of the Arabian peninsula fit in this pattern too, as do Sudan (partially) and (quite surprisingly) Lybia. A few sud-Saharan states may fall in this category too, including some federal states of Nigeria.

Many countries listed here have religious parties that sway their vote towards Sharia based standards of living. Most of these standards have recourse to legal influences on citizen rights. That is one of my issues. Politicians are making 'religious' edicts without popular consent and they often look toi hadith while creating them. This mindset can lead officers of the state towards an overdependence on beliefs or solutions that may or may not have practical implications today. The latter countries are the obvious ones as you said. Yet most, aside from Turkey, allow religion into their constitutions and legal bodies of legislature. This is a big difference.

Originally posted by Maju Maju wrote:

Beyond simple secularism, a concept that can be even adopted by fascists, there is the belief that human rights are above anything else. This is a sort of humanism but I don't know what specific tag can it have, as humanism is older and wider.

Humanism can represent pragmatic and reformative values. Much are beneficial. Yet we need to be on guard from the over sensitivity to human needs at the expense of ...

Religious or secular humanism has a lot going for it. I am a proponent humanistic ideals, education and government. Moderation is still the key here. Religious values and rituals, though personal yet mutual, may be discussed. The discussion itself will influence secular decision making. But the secular state needs to decide to what degree it will allow humanistic and/or religious activities and rituals to influnce national standards of living.

Copyright © 2004 Seko
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6571
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 14:59
Just to say that there are Christian parties in Europe too (most right wing parties are), and this means that religious morals or traditions will be more prominent in the political agenda when and where these parties are in power. Only France (and maybe some other coutry I can't recall) is very radical in secularism (even conservative parties are very laicist there) the rest allow for some presence of the majoritary religion(s) in state ceremonies, etc. But the religious/secular discussion is mostly about some moral issues such: abortion, divorce, gay marriage, teaching of religion in schools, etc. Anyhow, in the riff-raff some sort of consensus is reached. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 692
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 13:46

Let me start by saying that I'm a western muslim and that I sincerely hope for the complete emancipation of muslim women all around the world. I could never mistreat a sister, a mother, a daughter or a wife. It's barbaric and unislamic in my humble point of view. I believe God spoke through the Qur'an and through Muhammad's example, but muslims shouldn't be trying to live a life of the 7th Century Arabia! God has provided us with intelligence and good sense. So let us reason.

A great part of the muslim world of today is sick, and there are many reasons for that. But the greatest one, I think, is the mentality. Fortunately, thank God, many young muslims dare to think differently and act differently.

It is with enormous satisfaction that I see women like Misla (and I must say I have been very well impressed with the photos of Bosnia she's shown) and others, standing out and living their religion without hate or backdrawn mentality.

I've not been a muslim for a very long time but let me tell you that I'm tired of attending to mosques where inevitably (with some honorous exceptions!) the Imam has always the same speech (some needless khutbas) and where people just can't healthfully debate or recognize what is wrong in the islamic world and what we as muslims could do about it.

Not to mention the saddening everyday news about the bloodbath in Iraq (of course the US have responsibility, but let's leave that for other threads), the not-so-surprinsingly ghazi Iranian president, the once-and-then extremists attacks (apparently, now the jihad is to be carried whether in evil western or corrupted muslim countries!!) instigated by some angry mullahs that send their pupils to bomb themselves in order to get Allah's favour, etc...

I think that we all, as muslims, owe to ourselves, to the world and to God, to clearly and definetely step out into the modern age, to reform the old mentalities and, insh'Allah, to be once more (because we were before) a thriving example of prosperity, tolerance and spirituality to mankind! 

 

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
morticia View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Editor

Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2080
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 14:02
Good Day Infidel:

Those are very pro-women statements you've made and I thank you on behalf of all women for saying them. However, as you state, it is not the normal thinking of the average muslim. I, too, agree that life should not be lived based upon teachings which occurred so long ago, when everything has evolved so much since then. You mention that you have not been a muslim for very long. May I ask then, what were you before becoming a muslim and what compelled you to become one? You do not have to answer if you feel that I am out of line in asking same. I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just curious and am here to learn differences in our cultures and beliefs. Thank you.

"Morty

Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 07:28

Infidel. Ithink the major problem in the Muslim world is that non-Islamic cultures from the period of Jahaliye or even from the non-Muslim world have leaked into what many think of as Islam.

For example Pakistan has many cultural influences that originate from Hindus. The Taliban not allowing girls to go to schools, again this is cultural thinking and not Islamic at all.

There are also various topics to address as in Islam and the 'modern' world. We must never try to change or misintrepret the words of the Qur'an and Sunnah, other wise we mind end up like the Christians who have had countless major changes to the Bible (still the word of God?). But issues such as eating with the hand, because our Prphet (pbuh) did so, well the knife and fork was invented after his period (infact by Ali Bin Knafe). So i suppose eating with a knife and fork should be halal, as should the driving of a car instead of using a camel.

Thus Islam allows a certain level of leway for technlogical change.


"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8681
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 10:58
Osmanli what you are saying is in the right direction. But to say we should all obey Koran and Sunnah is open to debate. Because both have varied interpretations. Instead of relying on past interpretations for all cases, we could benefit by analyzing them more in the here and now. Strict adherence to debateable and susceptible material causes stagnation. Growth comes from respectfully questioning age old theories and beleifs and enhancing thought by more common sense and scientifc inquiry.
Copyright © 2004 Seko
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8681
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 11:29
If this topic is to stay open we should keep our discussion about the title at hand instead of deviate into Islamic philosophies. I think that we have already covered enough history on our versions of orthodox and progressive beliefs.   
Copyright © 2004 Seko
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 14:28

Agreed. I like to know how the historical reason for women being being treated unfairly in Islamic empires. Because at the very start this did not happen, however for some reason un-Islamic traditions seem to have leaked into these empires.

 

For example the harem. I mean what was that all about, the Sultan's private collection of women or something, or even belly dancing.


"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"
Back to Top
cahaya View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
The Auror

Joined: 05-Oct-2005
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 1263
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 14:52

Well OSMANLI...

tht part is one thing... wht about polygamy... is not to said tht I am against it.. coz it is allowed by Islam... Unfortunately the men... well.. most of u here are guys... are taking it as an excuse to marry more thn one (not to say u guys are like tht!)...why it is necessary to do so when ur existing wife is providing whtever necessity u need in life...

The worst part is.. when the wife reluctant to allow for the second marriage.. maybe she will run back to her parents home or wht so ever..and her husband is taking the excuse tht the first wife didn't respect him...or wht was it called? nusyuz? disobey... give him a good support to have second marriage... huh!!!  well to allowed ur husband to hv a second wife is much worst thn he spank u....

-just a thought-

(wont allow my future husband to marry for second time.. na'uzubillah.. kill!!kill!!die!!die!!  - just joking)

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8681
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 15:00

That's one where I need to dig into history books to find out.

 From what I know the Sultan had his slew of wives and concubines living in the 'Haram' forbidden part of the palaces. They were his property sort of speak. In due time segregation of women led to females, of most any imperial function, to have quarters in the harem. So it does not necessarily mean enjoyment for the Sultans sexual needs alone. This is just one romantic part of it.

Copyright © 2004 Seko
Back to Top
morticia View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Editor

Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2080
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 20:08
What I don't understand is why it is written (and has not been changed or updated yet) that women get "beaten" if they don't satisfy the criterias of their "man". Even if only "slightly" beaten (by the way, what does that mean? "Slightly" = just hematomas and "heavily"= broken bones or death?) There is no difference, it's a "beating" anyhow! Not only does physical abuse cause pain and suffering, but psychological disorders as well. Abused women live in fear of their lives and must remain "subdued" so as not to enrage her "man". That's not an equal balance in any relationship. And what about not permitting women to drive, or vote, or go to University. Why not? Is it that the men are afraid of women becoming an equal to them? Are men afraid that educated women will somehow control them? Or is it a "macho" thing that is masqueraded as "cultural"?

"Morty

Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 04:24

See thats another cultural problem. Which outsiders to the religion seem to think is part of Islam.

The rulings about the wife inc. about beating. The prophet (pbuh) NEVER hit a female. The holy Prophet has stated: "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?”

Beating is only allowed in the as the following states:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

Note: only in the most sarious of cases

"And among His signs is this that He has created mates from among yourselves, that you may live in comfort with them, and he has put love and compassion among you (husband and wife). Surely in that are signs for those who think" (30 : 21).

"Women have similar rights over men as men have over women" (2 : 228).

"They are your
garments and you are their garments." (Surah Al Baqarah 2:187).

“Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (An-Nisa’: 19)

There pleanty more verses  (for more info check Sura Nisa in the Holy Qur'an on rulings on women).

Does the verses given indicate a macho religion?

BTW. what i wanted to know is how such disgusting and degrading acts upon women entered into the homes of the Muslims. There must have been a point in history. My hypothesis is when the Islamic empire gained more peoples into their empire old customs and rituals carried on (remember its totally Haram, unlawful).

Whould much appreciate any info on the historic reasons.


"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"
Back to Top
morticia View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Editor

Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2080
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 09:13
Thank you, Osmanli, for your kind and informative response. I hope you were not offended by my questions as that is not my intention, but rather, to gain more knowledge as to the different customs and cultures in which we live. Many women are physically abused in America and all over the world as well. It's just something that women have had to endure since the beginning of time (maybe because they have always been considered as the "weaker" sex), and probably always will, but there is no harm in hoping that positive changes are forthcoming in the not too distant future! That is always my hope for the future generations of women (I certainly don't think it will happen in my lifetime)! Thanks again!



Edited by morticia
"Morty

Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 3705
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 09:32

Turkey people who attack womans are mostly  drunks and uneducated ones. Not religious ones and it is disgusting

 

Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 692
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 10:21

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Those are very pro-women statements you've made and I thank you on behalf of all women for saying them. 

You're being too kind. I don't think women, muslim or not, need my statements for anything. What they definitely need is to stand up for their own rights and their families, societies and cultural environments to open up and to mentally evolve in a way that it may be possible for women to actually be equal to men.

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

May I ask then, what were you before becoming a muslim and what compelled you to become one?

I was culturally a christian but a pratical non-believer. There were many a reason that led me to Islam, but the definite one was reading the Qur'an. Then, deep down isinde, it all made sense to me.

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
morticia View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Editor

Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2080
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 11:57
Infidel wrote: "I was culturally a christian but a pratical non-believer. There were many a reason that led me to Islam, but the definite one was reading the Qur'an. Then, deep down isinde, it all made sense to me"

I am very happy for you and wish you well!

Regards,
"Morty

Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 692
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 14:11
Jazakallahu Khairan 

Edited by Infidel
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.