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Forum LockedForced population movements

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mamikon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Forced population movements
    Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 14:46
would you stop with propaganda please. The number of deportees was much higher, and most of them died.  What do you mean 650,000 turned back? its  91 years after 1915 and there are 40,000 of Armenians in  all of Turkey, almost all of them  in Istanbul...

safe places , there is no limit to your ignorance
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 16:14

We must mention the first immigration of Hellens of the Ottoman Empire during the Revolution of 1821 from the Western shores of Asia Minor and the Eastern Agean Islands to the main Hellas.

The great pogrom under German lead in 1914 against Hellens of the Western Asia Minor  and Eastern Thrace for "military purposes" which continued,in a smaller scale, until the end of WWI in 1918.

Also the first mass immigration of  Hellens into Hellas in the 20th century ,happened in 1906 from Bulgaria due to the Macedonian conflict of that time between Bulgarian and Hellenic paramilitaries  .

Many Hellens  came later in the 1917-1921 period from the harbors of the Black Sea due to the Bolshevik revolution and domination in Russia.

Also,after the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913,Hellenic populations from the areas which were given to the Serbs and Bulgars(Monastiri area,Eastern Macedonia and Western Thrace) immigrated to Hellas.Many Hellens  returned to Eastern Macedonia and Western Thrace after the defeat of Bulgaria in WWI.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 16:25
Hi,

Here I come with a bite of a western-superiority vision of the world (of
course you're all welcome to show how wrong I may be).

First, I don't understand something about the topic: Mila is anybody has
ever been forced to move out of good will? The exemples you procure are
interesting but are very small scale. No wonder nobody got killed if you
"just" have to go to the closest town.

Concerning forced move of population I tend to see it as an oriental
specialty along with baklava and other nice dishes. There have been
forced move of population in the West (protestants/catholic exanges
during the early modern period, jews and moriscos expelded from Spain,
as a consequence of France/Germany struggle and in a way economic
migration in the sense that Irish had little choice than leaving their
homeland nor do today African going in the EU).
Nonetheless from Paulinian moved from the Middle East to the Balkans by
the basileus in the 11th century (?) to Stalin exiling caucasian peoples to
Central Asia, there seems to be a tradition of not carrying at all about
your subjects and putting them were ever you think they'd fit best.

What do you think? Am I right or am I recreating the good all image of the
oriental despot while only western Europe enjoies the lights of
civilization?

Bye.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 16:36
well France exiled the Huguenots...

Stalin was a madman, and he was more or a less a European (Georgia)


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 17:03
Originally posted by Maharbbal

No wonder nobody got killed if you
"just" have to go to the closest town.


True. I just mean... I'd prefer it if people didn't list examples like the Holocaust as a forced movement of Jews, etc... I'm curious about times when people were moved either willingly by their own choice, or forced by their own leaders, etc...

As I said, it was just the story in the news about how they might move Kosovo's Serbs to Bosnia - the Serbs might move them, not us, not the Albanians, not the international community. That strikes me as strange in a time of peace... and I was curious about how much it happens elsewhere.

I was hoping the Chinese forumers would have a few examples because I know vaguely of movements of millions of people to make room for new dams, etc.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 07:49
Originally posted by Decebal

Originally posted by Digenis


-The turcic tribe of Patzinakes to Moglena-Macedonia (1122-after their defeat in Veroe- they are probably ancestors of the Vlah speaking population of the  modern area(!)

Do you have a source on this? I find it very doubtful that turks could be the ancestors of a latin-language speaking population...



Patzinakes were a nomad turcic tribe-not turks.
They inhabited the area north of Danube-part of modern Romania and Moldavia (ab.950-1122)

This area had obviously indigenous population speaking a latin idiom-Vlachs that appeared in 13th-14th century couldnt "grow alone " there.
So its possible that the Patzinakes adopted in a way this language (although in 1071 ,the mercenaries of Byzantine Emperor is mentioned that could understand the soldiers of Arp Aslan-and so deserted to the Seljuk Turks)

The Vlahs of this area ("Moglenites Vlahi")today(most speak only greek of course)have a distinct idiom-different of this of all other vlahs of Greece,Albania and FYROM have.
Also they call themselves in their language "Vlassi" instead of the "Armani" (not the  Italian designer) that all the others use to describe themselves.

This theory of course is not 100% sure,but at least its interesting.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 08:13

In 1944 35,000 Chams were expelled from their homes in Greece.

In 1974, around 180,000 Greek Cypriot were forced away from their homes in Northern Cyprus, along with 50,000 Turkish Cypriots who fleed the South to the safety of the TRNC under UN protection a year later.

In 1985, 350,000 Turks were forced into a "great excursion" by the communist regime in Bulgaria.

In 1993, around a million Azeris were forced out of Nagorno-Karabakh and the surrounging Azeri territories - they continue to live as refugees even to this date.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slavic Pretorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 10:36
I have an examle too:
After the Battle at Kosovo betwen Ottoman Turks and Serbs in 1389 Serbs started to move northwards to the borders
of Hngarian Empire. They were accepted by Hungarian emperors and they started playing an important role in defence of Hungarian border. They were setteled all across today's Hungary and Croatia, thus a Serbian population in Croatia, which is by the way today non existing while Croats expeled almost all Serbs in the last war.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 12:37
bg_Turk

the number of Azeri refugees is 750,000 according to the UN stop inflating the numbers. And thats very nice of you that you forgot that Armenia received 350,000 Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan. However unlike your "brother" country,  Armenia does its best to integrate the refugees to its society, and its almost done. Whereas Azerbaijan still makes them live outside, as a reminder of war. Way to care for your people , no?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 13:23

Originally posted by mamikon

bg_Turk

the number of Azeri refugees is 750,000 according to the UN stop inflating the numbers.

These are the refugees from NK alone, does it include the 200,000 previous driven out from Armenia?

 And thats very nice of you that you forgot that Armenia received 350,000 Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan.

Would you care to provide sources?

 However unlike your "brother" country,  Armenia does its best to integrate the refugees to its society, and its almost done. Whereas Azerbaijan still makes them live outside, as a reminder of war. Way to care for your people , no?

When you have just lost a war, lost more than 20% of your territories and you are faced with a million refugees it is extremely hard to integrate your own refugees. Of course for Armenia with all the spoils of that war of agression that she led against Azerbaijan it will be much easier to integrate her refugees.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 14:14
Armenian sites claim ~370,000. However UN documents cite anywhere from 250,000-350,000 so we can stick to that. Even if its 250,00, or 200,000 you cant ignore them. The official numbers fors Azeri deportees are maximized at 800,000, most documents say 700,000-800,000. I will search for more UN documents when I find the time.

http://www.cilicia.com/Refugee.htm

http://www.unece.org/env/epr/studies/armenia/chapter03.pdf

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9148/nagornokarabakh.html

http://www.unece.org/pau/bull5.pdf

When you have just lost a war, lost more than 20% of your territories and you are faced with a million refugees it is extremely hard to integrate your own refugees. Of course for Armenia with all the spoils of that war of agression that she led against Azerbaijan it will be much easier to integrate her refugees.

Are you serious about this? In 1988 an Earthquake destroyed all of its nothern infrastructure. With 25,000 people dead. 500,000 houses destroyed. National Geographic ranked it in the 10 most Destructive (in terms of money) earthquakes in the last century in a tiny country such as Armenia. No oil, no energy (until Metsamor was opened in ~1995 I believe, after the war) and blocked by ~70 percent of its borders, could house its refugees. While Azerbaijan, sharing common borders with Iran, Georgia, Russia, the Caspian Sea and the republics on its either side, 3 times the size of Armenia, with a lot of oil, still cant hosue its  refugees? give me a break...Instead of helping the refugees, all Aliev can do it go to the refugee camp and blab about how Armenians are evil, "the agressors" and anything that those poor people can brew their hate upon...quite sad really. And were you aware that the Azeri government actually makes Armenian flags just to burn them? now why couldnt that money go to a 8 year old refugee boy, who doesnt have any food or clothes?




Edited by mamikon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 16:27
Hi,
Mila: talking about Chinese maid me think about something: if you take
the move of Chinese immigrant to Tibet for instance or the one of
Europeans toward the Americas, you've got good examples of situations
where the matter is not really forced move (also you rarely leave your
homeland because you want it) but more forced welcoming of
populations.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 17:58
The expell of Greeks from Constantinoupolis/Istanbul in '50s.

Especially after the mob attack in 1954.

So,from 150.000 Greeks in 1923,now only 2.000 are left.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 18:54
The Germans that lived in  Czechoslovakia(Sudites?) were forced to leave because the majority of them had joined the Nazi forces.
The Germans that lived in eastern Prussia and genarally in the eastern parts of the German Reich fled to the west persecuted by the Red Army.I read in a book(I think it was the Fall of Berlin by Anthony Beevor) that the total number was six million people(?).


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 10:04

here ya go from America:

Upwards of 250,000 Scotch-Irish migrated to America before the Revolution. Many went to the Carolinas and some went to upper New England, but most landed in Philadelphia, whence they moved southwestward in a steady stream. From 1776 until the end of the 19th century they comprised the largest single ethnic group in the white population of the southern interior. During the Revolution they were fiercely anti-English, as they had always been, and they provided a disproportionate share of the soldiers in the Continental armyóas they would do in all America's wars during the 19th century. They had the reputation of being fearless, impetuous, and undisciplined soldiers. In politics, never having acquired the English habit of obedience to central authority, they were intensely local-minded. Most therefore opposed ratification of the federal Constitution, and they formed the backbone of the Jeffersonian Republican party and, later, the Jacksonian Democratic party.

http://www.ecu.edu/ncfa/amfolk/scotsirsh.html

O'Dwyer, George. "Irish Migrations to America (1861-1865)". Journal of the American Irish Historical Society, 1932. Vol . New York: American Irish Historical Society , 1932

     In the American Civil War (1861-1865) there were large migrations of Irish laborers and tradesmen from English and Irish ports to America. Various reasons were assigned for this exodus of able-bodied men. Confederate agents and English sympathizers ascribed it as the work of Federal Army agents in Queenstown, Galway, Cork, Dublin, and other port towns in the Emerald Isle. The United States Government repeated, again and again, through its Minister, Charles Francis Adams in London, that it was a migration of able-bodied men to fill the places of those drafted into the Northern armies. These draftees were put to work on farms, in the wheat fields, in factories, on railroads, and in the mines; wherever labor was necessary for the building of new enterprises. Their passages were paid from Irish and English ports to New York. From New York, they scattered to different points; some, attracted by the settlements and enterprises of the West and Middle West; others, by the fact that their relatives were in the cities and towns in and near the Eastern seaboard.
     So many migrated in 1862 and 1863 from England and Ireland, that it attracted the attention of Parliament, and debates on its probable effect occupied the attention of members of the English governing body in the spring of 1863. In March, that year, the member from Liverpool rose in his place in Parliament and read from Custom House reports that, for the current year, "up to the last day of March, l863, 24,800 Irish laborers had left Liverpool for America. Between March 31st and April 24th, 14,648 had sailed. Many were recruits for the Northern Army for their passage had been paid to America."

http://www.celticcousins.net/irishiniowa/emigration.htm

xx

In the following superb article you can understand why America is the worlds greatest land of migrants..2m Irish..1.5 m Germans etc....Asians etc...

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Irish+migrat ions+to+America&vm=r&fr=ieas&u=www.uwf.edu/lgoel /documents/ASIANAMERICANS.pdf&w=irish+migrations+america &d=DL2M40aqMi_4&icp=1&.intl=us

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulgarian Soldja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2006 at 19:12
Originally posted by osmanlija

i forgot about the Balkan Wars.It was one of the most bloody immigrations of Muslims.Here is some population data according to the Ottoman census from the years 1875-1876

Sub-Province                Bulgarian population      Muslims

Ruschuk(Ruse)         ; ; ; ;    201000                           354300

Vidin         & amp; amp; amp; nbsp;         & amp; amp; amp; nbsp;        263000                            131600

Turnovo          ; ; ; ;           ; ; ; ;   188500       ; ; ; ;           ; ; ; ;           ; ; ; ; 112000

Tulcha(which is now in 40500      &a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;         &a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;         &a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;189000

Romania,Dobrudja)      

Varna         & amp; amp; amp; nbsp;         & amp; amp; amp; nbsp;        36000                            74100

Sofia                               297500                           189000

Islimiye (Sliven)      &a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;    100500                           186500

Philippi(Plovdiv)  ;           ; ; ;382500                           564500

Total                             1509500                         1800900

One can understand how massive was the immigration and how bloody was the process of creating a new country for Bulgarians by Russians.In fact not all the people had the chance to immigrate to Ottoman land.Many of them were killed in a very good planned way.In fact in todays Bulgaria it is hard to find Muslims in northwestern Bulgaria since many of them were eliminated between 1878-1914.Also this Bulgarian population above includes Greeks,Gagauzes(Turkish speaking Orthodox people,especially from the Varna region),Armenians,Vlahs,Christian Gypsies vs.).The Muslim population includes Pomaks(Bulgarian speaking Muslims mostly from Rhodopes),Muslim Gypsies,Tatars vs. 

Here is the census of 1910 and 1920

Year        Muslim-T urk Population      Ratio To Total

1910         60 2078                               13,9 %

1920         690734                                14,3 %

One can easily understand how massive was this immigration since it is thought that those Muslim immigrants from both Balkans and Caucasia  today form the 30% of the Turkish nation  of 72000000 people.

 

Theese numbers are bollocks.  We should ave got rid of all of u ..... in 1878-1920 .... infact the sooner we get rid off you the better. I really hope ATAKA win the next elections in Bulgaria .



Edited by Bulgarian Soldja
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2006 at 20:30
lol...I dont see how you are any different than "they" are...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulgarian Soldja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 20:02

Well for starters we r a different race, its not about difference tho its about hatred towards one another.

Even if they dont hate us we hate them.

Todor Zhivkov was a nightmare for them wasnt he.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulgarian Soldja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 20:08

1 advice for u all, do not listen to bg_turk, he lives in a world of his own. Most of u might have already worked that out



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Post Options Post Options   Quote shayan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 08:31
Kurds where also moved to  North East Iran...
Iran parast
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