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    Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 00:20
Some time ago I realized that most of the colonized countries had a tradition, where the first child born to European parents was celebrated. I know that this is the case of Virginia Dare, the first child to be born to English parents. I want to know if you know anything about the first child to be born to European parents in other parts of the world.
All I know is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_white_child
Emilio Palma is an Argentine, by the way

What I want to know, then, is: Who was the first child to be born to European parents in Latin America, especially Argentina? Maybe there's not a record specifying it, I don't know.

Thanks for reading :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 01:11
Hardly. For the first European child born in the Americas you better look for norse kids born in Newfoundland or for the first children born in the Spanish colonies to European parents. Unfortunately I don't know who they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dúnadan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 01:59
Snorri Porfinnsson was the first European child to be born in the Americas, but I'm talking about Latin America, and Argentina specifically.


Edited by Dúnadan - 14-Jun-2009 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 02:50
Such a query is really trivia lacking any historical relevancy and more the purview of individuals interested in puffery. Look at this little blurb from the Internet:
 
"The granddaughter of Governor John White, Virginia Dare was the first child born of English parents in the new world. The child's mother was White's daughter Eleanor. Her father, Ananias Dare, served as one of the Governor's assistants. Virginia was born on August 18, 1587, days after the colonists arrival on Roanoke Island. Her baptism on Sunday following her birth was the second recorded Christian sacrament administered in North America. The first baptism had been administered a few days earlier to Manteo, an Indian chief who was rewarded for his service by being christened and named ''Lord''."
 
 
Forget the abysmal knowledge of geography, but the bit about "Christian sacraments" was a bit much. Anyway, the oldest recorded instance of children born to European parents comes from Santo Domingo (present day capital of the Dominican Republic) and the names are rather famous. Between 1510 and 1513, Diego Colon (the Admiral's son) had four daughters with Maria de Toledo: Felipa, Maria, Juana and Isabel. Three sons followed in the subsequent decade: Luis (1522), Cristobal (1523), Diego (1524). Seing that all were baptized at birth, the rest of the garbage over Virginia Dare can best be assigned to English delusions. There was already a third generation of Colon (Columbus) descendants at Santo Domingo by the time of the Roanoke escapade!
 
Please let us have no more of such tom-foolery...


Edited by drgonzaga - 14-Jun-2009 at 02:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 07:53
One can also wonder who the first child of mixed descendency between White and Amerind was? 
Or the first child of mixed descendency between White and Black in the Americas?
Or the first child of Black and Amerind descendency?
Or the first Black child born in the Americas?
 
And then one can ask similar questions about Asians and other groups.
 
And finally one can wonder who was the very first person that was born on the American continent, i.e. the first Amerind person?
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 14-Jun-2009 at 08:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 15:49
Quote
Such a query is really trivia lacking any historical relevancy and more the purview of individuals interested in puffery. Look at this little blurb from the Internet:


Please don't be so needlessly arrogant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 16:45
Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:00
Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.
 
 
Maybe they do have some importance as examples of symbols for some kind of national, etnhical or even racial identity for those who feel in some way connected to these children. Since some people obviously celebrate the births of some of these children it probably must have some meaning for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:13
Looking at Virginia Dare from my mid-20th Century perspective, I believe the occasion was celebrated as proof that the English were in North America to stay. Previous English efforts to colonize North America had been abject failures. And the "Christian sacraments" bit was in the spirit of the Reformation. Spanish writing of the period often mentioned "Lutherian heretics" and "Anglo-Saxon Atheists".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:48
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Looking at Virginia Dare from my mid-20th Century perspective, I believe the occasion was celebrated as proof that the English were in North America to stay. Previous English efforts to colonize North America had been abject failures. And the "Christian sacraments" bit was in the spirit of the Reformation. Spanish writing of the period often mentioned "Lutherian heretics" and "Anglo-Saxon Atheists".
 
Er, Lirelou, "Roanoke" was an abject failure as an English plantation, and it was the intital effort. A full generation passed before another attempt was undertaken under the auspices of The London Company. As for the venture into "Christianization" such an effort never became an official objective of English colonial policy! Despite the public rhetoric, specially strong during the Commonwealth (1649-1659), I believe this extract summarizes the attitude correctly:
 
By their nature, the praying town and the school were confined largely to the English settlements and to the preliminary task of "civilizing" the Indians in preparation for religious conversion. But the task of substituting one culture for another was so great that the job of converting the Indians to the English brand of Protestant Christianity was often neglected, postponed, or attacked with inadequate forces. Only twenty-two Indian "churches" of the elect (as opposed to mere congregations) had been gathered in New England by 1776, and only a small handful elsewhere, largely because Protestant church organization had no peripatetic missionaries until the eighteenth century and the standards of church election for Indians were more exacting than those for their English neighbors. The contrast between English hopes and Indian results was sharply drawn by Nathaniel Rogers in his 1764 reissue of William Wood’s hopeful account of New England’s Prospect, first published in 1634. To Wood’s passage suggesting that the natives of America were susceptible to true "religion," Rogers appended a gloomy footnote: "The christianizing the Indians scarcely affords a probability of success," he wrote. "As every attempt to civilize them, since the first settlement of this country, hath proved abortive . . . it will rather appear a Utopian amusement, than a probable pursuit. . . . The feroce manner of a native Indian can never be effaced, nor can the most finished politeness totally eradicate the wild lines of his education."
Read the full assessment on-line:
 
 
To preserve what are essentially accidents with a whiff of mythology really suborns the reality of what actually took place. Juxtapose the negativity in Roger's 1764 commentary with the positivity found in the assessment of a Spanish contemporary: Fray Junipero Serra.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.
 
 
Maybe they do have some importance as examples of symbols for some kind of national, etnhical or even racial identity for those who feel in some way connected to these children. Since some people obviously celebrate the births of some of these children it probably must have some meaning for them.
 
Perhaps your concluding observation merits further discussion, but keep in mind this caveat: it will not be pretty.
 
Here is its actual beginning in terms of historiography:
 
The North Carolina Booklet, v. 1, no.1
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 18:25
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One can also wonder who the first child of mixed descendency between White and Amerind was? 
... 
 
I don't know his/her name, but I am certain it was born in Hispaniola around July of 1493... Wink


Edited by pinguin - 14-Jun-2009 at 18:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One can also wonder who the first child of mixed descendency between White and Amerind was? 
... 
 
I don't know his/her name, but I am certain it was born in Hispaniola around July of 1493... Wink

IIn any case the first mestizo in Mexico was the child of Gonzalo de Guerrero, who shipwrecked in Yucatán in 1511, and his Mayan wife.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 20:03
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.


It doesn't offend me in the slightist. But sometimes antiquarianism appeals to many - without having any significant historical importance. Finding a 200 year old coin in your back garden for example. Unfortunately for you not everyone (thankfully) is constantly trying to get at the 'interconnectedness of the human experience.' LOL I'm afraid that you suck history's life blood right out with thinking like that.


Edited by Parnell - 14-Jun-2009 at 20:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dúnadan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 20:09
There's no need to get like this. I know that Virginia Dare was not even near to be the first European child to be born on the Americas. Americans (North Americans), though, may like to celebrate the first child born to English parents (no one is talking about Christianity), and English hands were the ones who built the United the States of America after all. Thus, it may have a sense of national pride to them, so respect their view.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.

My ancestors are 100% European immigrants from the XIX and XX century, so I have no ancestral connection to the first Spaniards of Argentina. Still, I'm interested about it, since I speak Spanish after all and I want to know more about the genesis of my nation. The first child to generations of Creole people that made up the history of a nation can be celebrated. It's not "cultural arrogance", Argentine culture is a product of several sources, but the base is the first Creole settlers of the Rio de la Plata. It's like the symbolic genesis of a nation.


Back to the topic: I downloaded an e-book called "La Argentina Manuscrita", written by "Ruy Díaz de Guzmán", a Paraguayan "Creole" (of Iberian descent). He tells stories about the first settlers of the Rio de la Plata. I'll print it and read it later, but I doubt he tells anything about the very first settlers. That's why I'm askiong you about this, I thought you might know much, much more than me about this topic.


Edited by Dúnadan - 14-Jun-2009 at 20:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 22:23
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

It doesn't offend me in the slightist. But sometimes antiquarianism appeals to many - without having any significant historical importance. Finding a 200 year old coin in your back garden for example. Unfortunately for you not everyone (thankfully) is constantly trying to get at the 'interconnectedness of the human experience.' LOL I'm afraid that you suck history's life blood right out with thinking like that.
 
Despite my supposed tendencies toward vampirism (shades of the vampire Lestat  ), Parnell, the folderol over Virginia Dare is a symptom of history in the service of propaganda and relevant solely as examples of just how far some individuals and groups will go to close their eyes to transcendant events in the story of mankind. Interestingly enough, the Virginia Dare narrative is but a footnote in the larger orgy of imperial puffery that affected historical narrative and interpretation at the close of the 19th century and gained wide circulation as part of the Columbian Quadricentennial of 1893-1894. If you read the pamphlet on Dare that I cited that relationship becomes obvious. There the true historical significance and why the "First White Child" tradition is inextricably linked to the darker sides of European nationalism and rivalries. Interestingly enough, the question would not have even appeared relevant to the earliest Spanish and Portuguese "adventurers" in the New World.  Yes, they had children with Amerindian women and normally legitimized these descendants [e.g. Don Martin Cortez, made a Knight of Santiago in 1529].
 
By the way, personally, I have gotten over the urge to antiquarianism several times in my lifetime first in philately and numismatics [believe it or not as a child in New Orleans of the early 50s, Spanish doublons and reales were still in general circulation as dollars and dimes--so I didn't have to rummage through the garden for a 200 year old coin] and finally in incunabula and manuscripts, all of which I donated to relevant institutions when I retired.. Albeit, I must admit that I still will pick up rare books and Americana despite my better sense. Just this week I could not resist obtaining a pristine copy of Harry Franck's Vagabonding Down the Andes from 1907. Nevertheless, collecting and possessing objects or being overly-preoccupied with them does not History make. In any event, Virginia Dare does not constitute history but is simply a name in the process of myth-making on a par with that Philadelphia lady, Betsy what's-her-name, tied to the attitudes and perspectives of a completely different time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 23:38
Originally posted by Dúnadan Dúnadan wrote:

There's no need to get like this. I know that Virginia Dare was not even near to be the first European child to be born on the Americas. Americans (North Americans), though, may like to celebrate the first child born to English parents (no one is talking about Christianity), and English hands were the ones who built the United the States of America after all. Thus, it may have a sense of national pride to them, so respect their view.
My ancestors are 100% European immigrants from the XIX and XX century, so I have no ancestral connection to the first Spaniards of Argentina. Still, I'm interested about it, since I speak Spanish after all and I want to know more about the genesis of my nation. The first child to generations of Creole people that made up the history of a nation can be celebrated. It's not "cultural arrogance", Argentine culture is a product of several sources, but the base is the first Creole settlers of the Rio de la Plata. It's like the symbolic genesis of a nation.

Back to the topic: I downloaded an e-book called "La Argentina Manuscrita", written by "Ruy Díaz de Guzmán", a Paraguayan "Creole" (of Iberian descent). He tells stories about the first settlers of the Rio de la Plata. I'll print it and read it later, but I doubt he tells anything about the very first settlers. That's why I'm asking you about this, I thought you might know much, much more than me about this topic.
 
Dunadan you merit a response on two levels. First, I will assess your statement that I have italicized above. A lot of people will quibble with this business about "English" hands and the building of the United States, not least of which the Scots and the Irish, or the fact that the largest ethnic group is the German! If you look at the early National History of the United States, you will discover that a common bond in the forging of nationality was actually Anglophobia! But here I am becoming a bit too technical [while respecting the actual outlook of men such as Jefferson and Franklin and the roots of Jacksonianism]. Perhaps a new thread on this direction is merited.
 
Now, as to your query with specifics to Argentina. As with the United States, the Argentines have also played fast and loose with both facts and national detail. Notice that even you have a queasy feeling over the very first settlers of the "Rio de la Plata" and doubt that a Paraguayan "Creole" will have the facts. The actual fact is a simple one: the first successful colonization took place in Paraguay, with the establishment of the first permanent town, Asunción, in 1537. Here is a handy summary:
 
 
However, with regard to the efforts of Cabot, Mendoza, and Irala, all the surviving documents have been published as found in the Archive of the Indies and at Simancas. Just as Santo Domingo became the staging area for Spanish expansion in the Caribbean and Central America, the town of Asunción was the core for expansion in the La Plata basin and onto the Altiplano. The history of modern Buenos Aires, begins in 1580 but it remained a backwater until 1617 when efforts at proscribing the smuggling of Potosi silver at the hands of the Portuguese Piruleiros led to a permanent garrison and adminstrative staff. It was the growing conflict with the Portuguese after 1640 that more-or-less gave Buenos Aires a raison d'etre, but we really can not speak of consolidation and expansion until the Bourbon Reforms of the 18th century, when the actual silver trade of Potosi shifted from Lima to Buenos Aires with the abandonment of the Flota System and the eventual creation of the Viceroyalty of La Plata. If you are looking for "firsts" I am afraid you will have to look at Paraguay even in the evolution of Independence and Nationalism. Modern "Argentina" is the product of the long conflict between Unitarios and Federalistas between 1817 and 1852.
 
Now, the Argentines are no less adept than their Yanqui counterparts at national myth-making. For in all truth, the concern with roots and generous liberties with history came hand-in-hand with the rise of immigration from Europe between 1880 and 1910. The ambiance was captured spectacularly by Domingo Faustino Sarmiento in his aptly titled tome: Facundo: Civilización y Barbarie (1845). Whether you like it or not it is a must read because it explains much as to why Argentina today is still at war with its colonial heritage.


Edited by drgonzaga - 14-Jun-2009 at 23:41
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Dúnadan wrote: "There's no need to get like this. I know that Virginia Dare was not even near to be the first European child to be born on the Americas. Americans (North Americans), though, may like to celebrate the first child born to English parents (no one is talking about Christianity), and English hands were the ones who built the United the States of America after all. Thus, it may have a sense of national pride to them, so respect their view."
 
Well there were many hands that was there to build the United States of America. First there were the Amerind who gave their land and also actively contributed in the social, economic and political events that resulted in the formation and expansion of the US,  then there were Spaniards who among other things founded missions and settlements and contributed with land, and the French who explored vast reaches of the inner parts of North America and of course founded cities like St Louis and Louisiana. Then we have the Black Slaves descending from Africa that did a lot of work in building economic  prosperity. So in laying the foundation of, developing, extending and consolidating this state the English, and their descendants, were by no means alone.
 
Even the Swedish contributed by participating in the colonial endevour in the 17th century (and also by bringing the technique of the log cabin to America).
 
And later of cource an innumerable amount of input has come also from a lot of other groups from varying places on the Earth.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 14-Jun-2009 at 23:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 03:27
Dunadan, as an amplification, I was struck "curious" over your reference below:
 
Back to the topic: I downloaded an e-book called "La Argentina Manuscrita", written by "Ruy Díaz de Guzmán", a Paraguayan "Creole" (of Iberian descent). He tells stories about the first settlers of the Rio de la Plata. I'll print it and read it later, but I doubt he tells anything about the very first settlers. That's why I'm askiong you about this, I thought you might know much, much more than me about this topic.
 
Strangely enough, the original title of this chronicle with a hint of epic poetry is Los Anales del descubrimiento, población y conquistas de las provincias del Río de la Plata and its author, Ruy Díaz de Guzmán, originally prepared the narrative in 1612 as a grand summary of not only his experiences but that of his family as well. For one thing, Ruy Díaz was not only a lateral descendant of Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca (he who crossed the litoral of the Gulf of Mexico on foot after the disaster of the Narvaez expedition in Pensacola Bay, but repeated the effort in South America and trekked overland to Asuncion from the Brazilian coast!) but also the son of Ursula de Irala, the daughter of Domingo Martinez de Irala and the Guarani princess, Ybotu Lyu. Hence, this author is not only a criollo but a mestizo as well. The original of this narrative is long lost [unless due diligence finds a counterpart in the untouched  legajos of the AGI] but there were enough surviving copies of most of the text for the preparation of a printed edition in 1836 based on the codex still housed in the national archives of Paraguay.
 
This author is not only considered a reliable "primary" source given his lineage but he also actively participated in the political events of the later colonial world of the Plata basin. Unfortunately, events are cut off after 1573 (since the concluding section is lost), and we hear nothing of his personal experiences in both Santa Fe and Salta between 1580 and 1612.
 
By the way, I suppose by ebook you are referencing the transcription posted by the Russian web site Blok.NOT (creos@narod.ru ), which in a way is a good source on-line for A. Skromniysky's project, La Invencion de America, begun in 2005. There are quite a few little jewels here, including many of the 19th century transcriptions and translations of original documents and chronicles.
 

 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dúnadan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 05:15
Civilización y Barbarie is a great book. I have to admit I didn't read it all, but I read some fragments, but I will finish it soon I guess.
While I don't agree with everything Sarmiento says (though I do agree on some of his views), Civilización y Barbarie is a masterpiece.

As to Ruy Díaz de Guzmán being a Mestizo, it's quite surprising and interesting. He was very pro-Spanish/Creole, though (no more than other Creoles anyway), judging by the things he wrote.

I guess you are right that the first Spaniard born in Argentina's territory was probably from Asunción. Though, I may research for Sancti Spiritu then, the first Spaniard settlement here. I will research to see what is it known about Sancti Spiritu. Actually Guzmán wrote a story about it, the story about "Lucía de Miranda" and "Sebastián Hurtado", two Spaniard who escaped to Sancti Spiritu because their parents didn't accept their love.

About English building the USA, yes, well, I know that Scots, Irish and Germans (as well as other minorities) built it too. It was just an example.


Edited by Dúnadan - 15-Jun-2009 at 05:16
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