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Forum LockedFinno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 04:35
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Thank you O-jah.  This is indeed a very interesting discussion. I, personally, see that traditional Russian (Muscovite) material culture is actually much closer to the Finno-Ugrian (those Finno-Ugrians who inhabit modern Russia), than to Ukrainian, Belorussian and traditional Slavic material culture in general.
 
Ukranian culture is not traditional Slavic material culture. It is more traditional Turkic material culture. It is only in Northern Ukraine, in Polesye, that you can find material culture that looks Slavic. Accidentally, it also looks similar to Russian material culture, which you so desperately want to ascribe to Finno-Ugrians. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O-jah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 10:47
Quote Y-hg N is generally recognized as a sign of Finnic ancestry. All modern Finnic nations have high percentage of N. It is obvious that they had it 1,000 years ago as well.


Ok, could be. But remember that the genetics doesn't tell the whole story. For example if 5% of Poles have that genetic marker N and it is recognized as Finnic that doesn't straightly mean that 5% Poles have finnic ancesters. It gives some information though and good information yes, but not the whole story. Am i right?

Quote Original FUs were migrants in East Europe from East Asia. The modern FUs are themselves mostly indigenous East European people with only various degrees of FU admixture.


Finno-Ugrians came from East Asia?? As i know they came from near the Ural. Some new studies even says that FUs habitated much of Europe before the Indo-Europeans came here, but i doubt that quite much. I think FUs could have habitated much of Eastern Europe, especially European side of todays Russia, before Indo-european and other came here. Ofcourse the newcomers (Slavs) pushed the FUs to north and east, but probably there has been mixing too.

Quote It does prove much. 1 document in Finnic per thousands of documents in Russian proves that the Finnic influence was minuscule.


Yes that is true. But the documents are mostly from 11th to 15th century and i'm talking about the time before that. Could it be that by that time the most of the finnic people in Novgorod had adobted the slavic language? And the finns probably where mostly lower class people, thus didn't know how to read or write. And probably those who could read and write could also speak the slavic language and probably used that for writing!

For example in Finland writing was introduced to us many centuries before the first writings in finnish occured. Before (and after) that every text was in Latin.


Well i hope i make any sence...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 12:11
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

 
Ukranian culture is not traditional Slavic material culture. It is more traditional Turkic material culture. It is only in Northern Ukraine, in Polesye, that you can find material culture that looks Slavic. Accidentally, it also looks similar to Russian material culture, which you so desperately want to ascribe to Finno-Ugrians. LOL
 
Well, I don't want to ascribe anything. I just raised the discussion. Although, your attempts to negate this theory sometimes seem desperate to me. For example,  Dyakovo culture which you talked so much about is described as Finno-Ugrian everywhere.
 
 
BTW, could you please kindly elaborate on the similarities between Traditional Turkic and Ukrainian cultures. I just thought that most common features of "traditional Turkic culture"  are living in Tent (yurt), drinking kumys etc. Not sure if "traditional Ukrainians" do this.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 20-Jun-2007 at 12:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 12:16
Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:



Yes that is true. But the documents are mostly from 11th to 15th century and i'm talking about the time before that. Could it be that by that time the most of the finnic people in Novgorod had adobted the slavic language? And the finns probably where mostly lower class people, thus didn't know how to read or write. And probably those who could read and write could also speak the slavic language and probably used that for writing!

For example in Finland writing was introduced to us many centuries before the first writings in finnish occured. Before (and after) that every text was in Latin.


Well i hope i make any sence...
 
Right, this is the point. The supporters of this theory argue that original Ugro-Finns who lived in Russia just adopted Slavic language and the culture to the certain extent. However, they were not originally Slavic per se.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 12:43
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

Ukranian culture is not traditional Slavic material culture. It is more traditional Turkic material culture. It is only in Northern Ukraine, in Polesye, that you can find material culture that looks Slavic. Accidentally, it also looks similar to Russian material culture, which you so desperately want to ascribe to Finno-Ugrians. LOL
 
The whole south of Ukraine was was inhabited by Antes, according to Jordanes and archeological data. They were part of Cherniahov's culture and most authors agree that they were Slav speaking people. Your attempts to make Ukrainians Turks is as ridiculous as attempts of some Ukranian historians to make Russians Finns.


Edited by Anton - 20-Jun-2007 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 13:08
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

 
The whole south of Ukraine was was inhabited by Antes, according to Jordanes and archeological data. They were part of Cherniahov's culture and most authors agree that they were Slav speaking people. Your attempts to make Ukrainians Turks is as ridiculous as attempts of some Ukranian historians to make Russians Finns.
 
Nice to see you again here, Anton !
 
This is true that the issue, got politicized by Ukrainian historians. Because, by using it, they true to prove that "Finnish" Muscovites i.e. modern Russians are inferior to "Arian" Ukrainians. BTW they write that the fact that Russians and Bulgarians have often common last names like: Ivanov, Petrov etc. is due to the fact that the Finnish population of Russia was baptized by the Orthodox Church, that used Old Church Slavonic i.e. old Bulgarian language. And thus Finnish Muscovites unlike the Ukrainians were given Bulgarian surnames.
 
Other than that crazy politisation, I think the theory is very interesting. Perhaps, Russians did not originate from the Finns entirely, but there might had been a significant Finnish element in the forming Russian nation. The assertion that Russians are "inferior" because they have Finnish element in them seems ridiculuos to me.
 
Anyway, I do see much more similarities between Russians and Finno-Ugrians than between Ukrainians and Turks.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 20-Jun-2007 at 13:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 13:40
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

This is true that the issue, got politicized by Ukrainian historians. Because, by using it, they true to prove that "Finnish" Muscovites i.e. modern Russians are inferior to "Arian" Ukrainians. BTW they write that the fact that Russians and Bulgarians have often common last names like: Ivanov, Petrov etc. is due to the fact that the Finnish population of Russia was baptized by the Orthodox Church, that used Old Church Slavonic i.e. old Bulgarian language. And thus Finnish Muscovites unlike the Ukrainians were given Bulgarian surnames.
 
Serbs were also baptized by old-charch slavonic but have Djorjevic, Petrovic etc. last names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 14:14
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

This is true that the issue, got politicized by Ukrainian historians. Because, by using it, they true to prove that "Finnish" Muscovites i.e. modern Russians are inferior to "Arian" Ukrainians. BTW they write that the fact that Russians and Bulgarians have often common last names like: Ivanov, Petrov etc. is due to the fact that the Finnish population of Russia was baptized by the Orthodox Church, that used Old Church Slavonic i.e. old Bulgarian language. And thus Finnish Muscovites unlike the Ukrainians were given Bulgarian surnames.
 
Serbs were also baptized by old-charch slavonic but have Djorjevic, Petrovic etc. last names.
 
yeah, this explanation doesn't seem very plausible to me either, but the point is that while Serbs already had their own Slavic dialect, it was more natural for them to design the names according their language, while the Finns (according to some modern Ukrainian historians) didn't speak any Slavic language, so it was more natural for them just to take the names as they originally were in old church slavonic.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 20-Jun-2007 at 14:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 14:50
Doesn't make sence to me at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:07
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

 Well, I don't want to ascribe anything. I just raised the discussion. Although, your attempts to negate this theory sometimes seem desperate to me. For example,  Dyakovo culture which you talked so much about is described as Finno-Ugrian everywhere.
 
Is it explained "everywhere" why the hydronymy in the territory of this "Finno-Ugrian" culture is Baltic?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

BTW, could you please kindly elaborate on the similarities between Traditional Turkic and Ukrainian cultures. I just thought that most common features of "traditional Turkic culture"  are living in Tent (yurt), drinking kumys etc. Not sure if "traditional Ukrainians" do this.
 
Pecheneg
 
 
Ukranian
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:15
You just need to look at the Cuman images to see whose descendants Ukrainians are
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And here is a Ukrainian national hero with a Turco-Mongol name Mamay. Note the instrument he's playing. This is the Ukrainian national instrument kobza, which is originally the Turkic national instrument kobyz.
 
 
The term kobza is first mentioned in 1331, but lute-like instruments are known to have existed in the territories now known as Ukraine even earlier, either from the sixth century, brought there by Bulgars, or possibly somewhat later by Polovetsians and Khazars. The term has a Turkic origin: "kobyz" or "khomus".
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:28
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

 
This is true that the issue, got politicized by Ukrainian historians. Because, by using it, they true to prove that "Finnish" Muscovites i.e. modern Russians are inferior to "Arian" Ukrainians. BTW they write that the fact that Russians and Bulgarians have often common last names like: Ivanov, Petrov etc. is due to the fact that the Finnish population of Russia was baptized by the Orthodox Church, that used Old Church Slavonic i.e. old Bulgarian language. And thus Finnish Muscovites unlike the Ukrainians were given Bulgarian surnames.
 
This shows how pathetic Ukrainians are. Russian family names are made with the suffixes -ov and -in, which are present in all Slavic languages (and Ukrainians themselves use them to make patronymics, e.g. Andriy > Andriy-OV-ich), while in no Slavic languages there are suffixes -enko or -yuk with which Ukrainian family names are made. They must be of Turkic origin therefore.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Other than that crazy politisation, I think the theory is very interesting. Perhaps, Russians did not originate from the Finns entirely, but there might had been a significant Finnish element in the forming Russian nation.
 
I am still waiting for your proof of this "significant Finnish element".
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

The assertion that Russians are "inferior" because they have Finnish element in them seems ridiculuos to me.
 
Anyway, I do see much more similarities between Russians and Finno-Ugrians than between Ukrainians and Turks.
That means that you just don't want to see.
 
These are Turks
 
 
And these are Slavs
 
 
 
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Well I was in Ukraine once, and it was the time I felt most proudful for being Turk throuout my life so farCool. I received much more attention than my German, English,Dutch, Hungarian friendsWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:15
The hairstyle that you pointed was not only in Turkic tribes but Sarmats as well. The instrument is used everywhere in Europe including Russia (Dombra).  The ones that you pointed as Slavs in your figures are mostly Russians. Southern Slavs have totally different dressing style. Western slavs also differs from those you posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:23
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

while in no Slavic languages there are suffixes -enko or -yuk with which Ukrainian family names are made. They must be of Turkic origin therefore.
 
That's a kinda strong logic. If it is not slavonic it is Turkic Smile Somehow you foget that Ukranian territory was a place where civilizations of completely different origins (Germans, Turkic, Iranian, Slavonic even Greek and Roman) were met.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:42
Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

Ok, could be. But remember that the genetics doesn't tell the whole story. For example if 5% of Poles have that genetic marker N and it is recognized as Finnic that doesn't straightly mean that 5% Poles have finnic ancesters. It gives some information though and good information yes, but not the whole story. Am i right?
 
Sure, still this is something palpable that can be measured and not just general considerations.

Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

Finno-Ugrians came from East Asia?? As i know they came from near the Ural. Some new studies even says that FUs habitated much of Europe before the Indo-Europeans came here, but i doubt that quite much. I think FUs could have habitated much of Eastern Europe, especially European side of todays Russia, before Indo-european and other came here. Ofcourse the newcomers (Slavs) pushed the FUs to north and east, but probably there has been mixing too.
 
Yes, FUs came from East Asia. The y-hg N is a brother of the y-hg O, which most Chinamen and other south-east Asians have. N and O split most probably in North China and/or Mongolia. The original FUs were Mongolid people who spread from East Asia through Siberia into East Europe, where their presence is first attested around 6,000 BC. The indigenous population of East Europe were Europid IEs from the south Russian ice age refugium who carried the y-hg R1a1.
Please note that the contemporary FUs have very little to do with the original FUs in genetic terms. The contemporary FUs are IE aborigines of East Europe in whom the original FUs are present only as an admixture.

Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

Yes that is true. But the documents are mostly from 11th to 15th century and i'm talking about the time before that. Could it be that by that time the most of the finnic people in Novgorod had adobted the slavic language? And the finns probably where mostly lower class people, thus didn't know how to read or write. And probably those who could read and write could also speak the slavic language and probably used that for writing!

For example in Finland writing was introduced to us many centuries before the first writings in finnish occured. Before (and after) that every text was in Latin.

Well i hope i make any sence...
 
You can speculate about anything but there are no facts that would show that there was a significant number of Finns in Novgorod.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:50

About "Ukrainian" hair style. Aeon who in your view was Svyatoslav Igorevich? Ancient Russian king or pecheneg?

This hairstyle was very common also for germanic, celtic and slavic tribes. The meanig of it was being fearless: the warrior by maiking this "chub" facilitates the cutting of his head by the enemy if he is killed in battle. Thus he is not afraid to die.
 
So, did the Ukrainians take it from Turks, by the way I never read about Turks or Turkish soldiers with chubs, or they simply preserved the ancient tradition dating back to Svyatoslav?
 
Image:Lebedev%20Svyatoslavs%20meeting%20with%20Emperor%20John.jpg
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Klavdiy Lebedev (1852-1916). Svyatoslav's meeting with Emperor John, as described by Leo the Deacon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:51
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

The hairstyle that you pointed was not only in Turkic tribes but Sarmats as well.
 
Please show me pictures of Sarmatians with such a hairstyle. It was exactly Turco-Mongolian. Plait was the place where Turco-Mongolians believed man's soul was.
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

The instrument is used everywhere in Europe including Russia (Dombra). 
 
It may be used in Russia alongside many other foreign instruments, but it is not a Russian national instrument. It is a Turkic and Ukrainian national instrument.
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

The ones that you pointed as Slavs in your figures are mostly Russians.
 
They all are Russians. The picture that says Turks actually shows Ukrainians. Smile
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Southern Slavs have totally different dressing style. Western slavs also differs from those you posted.
 
So what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:58
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

About "Ukrainian" hair style. Aeon who in your view was Svyatoslav Igorevich? Ancient Russian king or pecheneg?
 
He was a Russian king who cut his hair in the style of his Pecheneg allies. He took many traditions from Pechenegs, as Russian chronicles state quite clearly. And please note that no other Russian king cut his hair in this way.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

This hairstyle was very common also for germanic, celtic and slavic tribes. The meanig of it was being fearless: the warrior by maiking this "chub" facilitates the cutting of his head by the enemy if he is killed in battle. Thus he is not afraid to die.
 
No, there was never such a style among Germanic, Celtic or Slavic tribes. This is a traditionall Turco-Mongol hairstyle.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

So, did the Ukrainians take it from Turks, by the way I never read about Turks or Turkish soldiers with chubs, or they simply preserved the ancient tradition dating back to Svyatoslav?
 
I have seen lots of Tatar and Turkish soldiers with chubs.
 
BTW, the picture is not exact. Leo the Deacon says that Svyatoslav was blond, blue-eyed and snub-nosed, i.e. looked like a typical Finno-Ugrian. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 07:01
Originally posted by TheDiplomat TheDiplomat wrote:

Well I was in Ukraine once, and it was the time I felt most proudful for being Turk throuout my life so farCool. I received much more attention than my German, English,Dutch, Hungarian friendsWink
 
This is understandable. Ukraine was a vilayet of the Ottoman Empire till the end of the 17th century.
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