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Forum LockedFinno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 19:08
Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:


This seem to point to Savolax/Savolinna and Ladoga/Holmgard as the old centres of these populations. Finally that seems to imply that the old rulers of the FU Russia were placed in this area, until the Swedish prince Erik were asked to marry a FU (Vendic) princess and organize a new dynasty - as the Rex (Rik) of the Rus. Consequently he became Ru-rik, with his second son Helge as crown-prince Oleg. Thus the Linga-line was made.
 
Who is Erik and to who you refer as a princess.



The princess was the daugther from one of the old noblemen of Novgorod, - probably a close relative to Gostomysl...



Edited by Boreasi - 15-Feb-2009 at 19:09
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Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

He has mixed some archeological sites, true and imaginary history into his family saga. The combination is very confusing to most, who can link something with true events.


Your comments are also quite confusing on this. Whats the point in discussing any issue if only traditional textbook views are allowed - whatever the proves?

   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 20:32

Genes mirror geography within Europe

Understanding the genetic structure of human populations is of fundamental interest to medical, forensic and anthropological sciences. Advances in high-throughput genotyping technology have markedly improved our understanding of global patterns of human genetic variation and suggest the potential to use large samples to uncover variation among closely spaced populations

Here we characterize genetic variation in a sample of 3,000 European individuals genotyped at over half a million variable DNA sites in the human genome. Despite low average levels of genetic differentiation among Europeans, we find a close correspondence between genetic and geographic distances; indeed, a geographical map of Europe arises naturally as an efficient two-dimensional summary of genetic variation in Europeans. The results emphasize that when mapping the genetic basis of a disease phenotype, spurious associations can arise if genetic structure is not properly accounted for. In addition, the results are relevant to the prospects of genetic ancestry testing; an individual's DNA can be used to infer their geographic origin with surprising accuracy—often to within a few hundred kilometres.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/abs/nature07331.html

http://anthropology.net/2008/09/03/pinpointing-the-geographic-origins-of-europeans-from-their-dna/

Reference;

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5866/1100

”It is interesting how these results parallel those of Li et al. (2008), according to which Russians from Vologda have a membership of 86% in the main European cluster, Tuscans have 95%, and all others (except the Adygei from the Caucasus) between 99-100%. Given that Russians have a Finno-Ugrian substratum, these results parallel those of this study in which the two major genetic differences within Europe are primarily because of the Finns, and secondarily because of the Italians.”










Edited by Boreasi - 15-Feb-2009 at 20:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 21:00
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:


As far as I know Mr. Bock claims to be the orator of an old Finnish family-saga, with roots back in "heathen time".  Thus it may be seen as a parallell to the oral traditions that were collected by the folklorists of the 19th century - such as the Kalevala.


Kalevala was compiled by Elias Lönnrot. Most of the poems, or runo's are real but some he modified and some he even wrote himself. Kalevala is not 100% authentic. There are however massive collections of authentic runo's, even in internet. Unfortunately only available in Finnish.

http://dbgw.finlit.fi/skvr/skvr.phtml

Ior Bock's stories are not related to old Finnish runo tradition. He mixed truth and fiction to create his family saga. His family has denied everything of Ior's stories and say he is insane. What he has done is take one piece of old Swedish heathenism, one piece of old Finnish heathenism and one piece of imaginery stuff. Combine that with little known periods of time (crusading period, Finnish-Novgorodian wars etc) and mix them to fantastic story. It is a good story, but only that.

Quote
About a decade ago I got a book about it called "Bockin Perheen Saaga" - but unrtunately I don't read Finnish. Have you read it?


Yes, I have it in my book collections. Lot of it can be found here, in English and German

http://bocksaga.de/frameset_english.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 16:57
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Yes. Particularly the blond male singer at the right. He has an "Asian" look. The blond girl also looks asiatic in some pictures.
 
Not that it matters, but at least in were I live, same facial features are quite revealing Wink

Well, I don't think anyone of them look Asian at all,  so I guess it's in the eyes of the beholder ;)
 
I just came to think of it, and remembering your little argument:
 
A much better example would be Agnetha and Björns daughter, ever seen her? And for Finns, the figure skater Laura Lepistö. I think they represent what Pinguin is thinking of.
Perhaps?
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 17:16

I guess we all need to look into the mirror then. Since all Europeans have Asian lineage with some %. The most western the Basque still 13%.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 12:00
Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

What IE root language? Question


I just did refer to the archeologist Milton Nunez. Moreover I think you have a Finnish linguist called Karlevi Wiik who have established a similar level of indepth analyzis, identifying the Swidrian culture as FU. Combine his map with the DNA-map from the above link and you may find a clear coherence between genetics and language.

The old FU substratum is clearly present in the younger lingua franca of eastern Eurasia, i.e. Slavonic.  A similar correlations is clearly present in the western, where an old germanic substratum can be found in the lingua franca of western Europe, i.e. French/Latin. (See Wiiks map nr. 1.)

The divison between these two cathegories is clearly seen throughout central Europe -  beginning with the border between Sweden and Finland n the north, then across the Baltic Ocean to Wizla and further south to Transylvania. (See Wiiks map nr. 3.)

You may note that both the younger languages (Latin and Slavonic) both correlates with the influence from the respective political metropoles/cultural monopoles of the middle ages, i.e. Rome and Constantinople.

http://www.wiik.fi/kalevi/juuret/atlasdemo.pdf


Still, eve though Wiiks observations of lnguage borders are clear, his theory of the epipaleolithic migrations (see ma 2) are still not sufficently proven.

---

Finally the works of Mario Alinei et. al is clearifying the matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory





Edited by Boreasi - 18-Feb-2009 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 19:34
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

What IE root language? Question


I just did refer to the archeologist Milton Nunez. Moreover I think you have a Finnish linguist called Karlevi Wiik who have established a similar level of indepth analyzis, identifying the Swidrian culture as FU. Combine his map with the DNA-map from the above link and you may find a clear coherence between genetics and language.

The old FU substratum is clearly present in the younger lingua franca of eastern Eurasia, i.e. Slavonic.  A similar correlations is clearly present in the western, where an old germanic substratum can be found in the lingua franca of western Europe, i.e. French/Latin. (See Wiiks map nr. 1.)

The divison between these two cathegories is clearly seen throughout central Europe -  beginning with the border between Sweden and Finland n the north, then across the Baltic Ocean to Wizla and further south to Transylvania. (See Wiiks map nr. 3.)

You may note that both the younger languages (Latin and Slavonic) both correlates with the influence from the respective political metropoles/cultural monopoles of the middle ages, i.e. Rome and Constantinople.

http://www.wiik.fi/kalevi/juuret/atlasdemo.pdf


Still, eve though Wiiks observations of lnguage borders are clear, his theory of the epipaleolithic migrations (see ma 2) are still not sufficently proven.

---

Finally the works of Mario Alinei et. al is clearifying the matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory



 
Definitely there has been a Proto-IE language and Proto-Germanic and so on. However these languages has not been spoken in Finland or in FU areas. Minor or major mixtures of these languages influenced and developed young subdivisions of Indo-European.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 07:40

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

The roots of words like Ros/Rus and Gard/Gàrd are easily connected to the old IE language of the north, where Ros means Rose and Gard means Yard. Thus the name of "Ros-land" and the "Garda-riki" can be logicaly understood as the Scandinavian exonyms of prehistoric Russia.
 
What old IE language of the north you speak about possibly? E.g. in Finnish word ruskea has ment red (nowadays brown), aamurusko (red dawn/morning).  In Veps rōč, out of which ruotsi and rus were transferred to Greeks and Arabs. Only Scandinavians did not use word rus.
*Ruske -> russkij
Håkon Stang University of Oslo The Naming of Russia 300. The conclusion is "red", Veps word rōč.


Nice theory - which Håkon Stang himselves says is still nothing but a theory. Please read his conclusion...

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:


The fact that the populations there were Fenno-Ugrians - calling themselves "Sarenmatians", etc. doesn't contradict that. When the nobility of their Swedish trade-partners were asked to help out, as a third and "neutral" party - between the FU and the intruding Kazars and Slavs - the Swedish names for this vast area came into official use, as a unifying princip.
 
There are no indications that Rurik was Swedish or that the origin of the names were Swedish.


Except the Russian annals, that clealy explai that they were Varangians - which are very well known from both Norse and Greek litterature - as Scandinavians. The geogrphic area called "Varanger" is (still) existing in the eastern part of Finnmark, at the high north of todays Norway.

The area is an old border- and trade-place between the Norse and the FU Kvens. In the 17th century chronicle "Spekulum Boreale" the area is said to have hosted an old castle and kingfamily,as well.  http://www.kajaneborg.com/wordpress/?page_id=36

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:



The FU name for the bi-lingual (fenno-swedish speaking) Finns were called "Ruotsi", since they spoke the IE "Root-lanuage". Another name for these coastal, bilngial Finns were "Hurri".
 
What IE root-language Finns have spoken? Ruotsi name is said to have origin from the rus. Finns called Finnish-Swedish speakers or Swedish speakers hurri (hur/u) but this word has emerged into use later in history.


How late - and how do yo prove it?

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:



As the Swedes have a singing accent of the same "root" language the FU discrimnated the Swedes from the southern (coast-line) Finns, by calling the former "Ruotsinlainen" and their language "Ruotsinkielli".
 
Ruotsalainen, ruotsin kieli. I do not agree with the discrimination or your proposal of the origin of the words.


I am not after agreement - but facts, understanding and insight. Mutual, preferably... Perhaps you can reflect and reason about it, rater then "read and react"...?

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:


According to modern research the Finns were a highly influencial part of the old communication between east and west - who had inhabittated the eastern part of Eurasia continoulsy since Megalithic time. Later results seem to explain that the spread of the first habitats and the earliest populations in the eastern Baltic, with an epicentre around Carelia.


West, South, East.


If that means "spreading West, South, East" I am afraid we may agree on a very crucial point - due to recent discovery. The oldest settlement (since the Younger Dryas) of the eastern side of the Baltic Ocean seems to be the shores of southern/south-eastern Finland, rather than the western coasts of the Baltic states. Funny and strange, but this seem to be it...

Mammontovaya Kurija, Ru - 40.000 BP
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v413/n6851/full/413064a0.html


Vegetation Fenno-Scandia - 16.-11.000 yrs BP

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBC-4TT1G5J-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3ca02f3bd3fd5731c634c369d094e3c8

Temperate life - 12.000 - 10.600 BP

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBC-4PNFB1S-7&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=64eb624a8aa5f1d5daafc5cab9c45c03

Komsa, No -11.200 BC    

http://www.uit.no/melkoya/start_eng.htm

,


Fosna, No - 11.200 BP
http://www.vitenskapsmuseet.no/ormen/Sider/Eng/Finds.html

Salpausselka, Fi - 11.000 BP

http://www3.lappeenranta.fi/museot/museo/english/karjala_meso.html


Kunda, Est - 10.900 BP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture

Pulli, Fi - 10.800 BP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulli_settlement

World oldest Fishing-net,
Antrea, Fi - 10.400 BP
http://www.ekarjala.fi/museot/eng/articles/etela_karjalan_esihistoriaa_eng.htm

Suomosjärvi, Fi - 10.300 BP
http://www3.lappeenranta.fi/museot/museo/english/karjala_vakiintuu.html

Utsjoki, arctic Finland - 10.000
BP
http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/rankama/index.html



Gotland, 10.000 BP
http://www.lansmuseetgotland.se/1833

Swidrian, PL - 10.000 BP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian_culture

Hensbacka, Sw - 10.000 BP
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g0jt45751220mx70/

Maglemose, DK 9.500 BP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglemosian_culture

Distant trade-routes;


FU-genetics;
http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf


The Rurik-question;

Following from this it would be imminent that the Finnish role in the cultural and political life on both sides of the Baltic would have been far greater than hereto known (or accepted) by present historians. Though, thanks to the new and stronger look into this issue by recent historians the old picture about the "primitve Finns" of Bronze-age and Vikingtime are about tochange radically. Solid academians such as Kyösti Joulku, Martti Klinge, Eero Ojanen, Leif Tengström and others have clearly shown that modern research do confirm that Finland were a highly cultivated and organized kingdom - just as their viking neighbours. Moreover they did indeed play a central - perhaps leading - role in the ancient relationships, trade and interchange between east and west.  The facts from the modern sciences of historical research can verify a steady and successfully growing producition and trade from Finland to both the eastern and western edges of Eurasia - all the way from younger stone-age to the end of Viking-time...Shocked

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/asr.html#RURIK


Accepting that the exeptional Finnish mythology actually reflect a old kingdom - and a subsequent nobiity - we may start to relate the ancient kings of Finland to the reign of their FU subjects of the eastern provinces, from the ambercoast of Estinma, Litvinmaa and Livinmaa - via the famous waterways east of Onega, all the way to Bajkal and the eastern end of the silk-route. As the Tocharian mummies proved to be Caucasian rather than Chineese we may start to encircle the question of what peoples that made the northern half of the Chinese trade-wall.  Via the southern river-trade they also combined the production of the arctic treasures (lamp-oil, ivory, fuhr, craftworks, etc.) to gain "fame and friendsip" with and within the Mediterranean cultures. Today the yearly travels of Apollon - to and from the  "wonderful Hyperborea" - are duely noted among modern scholars... Embarrassed  

As allthe ancient progressed into the bronze-age there were some  Akkadians, Khazars, Greeks and Romans that started to expand into the basicl peaceful traders of the FU area.
With Caesar a paralell exploitation started to subdue the western Europeans.  With time the seafaring and dynamic "petty kings" (eorls) of the Goths and Germans were able to prepare their youth for combat and start a counter-strategy to the intruders. As the Viking-raids proved somewhat effective both Swedes and Danes were mobilizing some of their youth for the "sharp play of the sword". After the success of the Skjoldungs (Lodbroks) and the Ynglings (Munsoe) the "old man" (king) of the Russians - asked the successful king of Sweden to let his son come east and build a new capitol and regime - to more effectively assist the trubled provinces and support their hardly pressed nobility in defending their homelands. That's why and how the famous warrors and guardsmen from the north-west - called Varangi or Vikingi - came to unite politically and militarily with their old relatives and trade-partners in the old "Garden Empire"... Viking
http://circassian.narod.ru/circass/hist/garden.htm

 
Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:



"A crowned lion of gold holding a sword in the right forepaw and trampling with both hindpaws on a Russian sabre (ryssesabel), surrounded by nine silver roses in a red field, over the shield a golden crown with a red cap." This is from the 16th century.


The shield of Gustav Wasa looked exactly like that. Though, the political reaity this lion and its 9 roses represent was already a reality as of the coronation of Rurik in 862. When Birger Jarl comes along in 1248-50 the old Finnish king-line abdicates - rather than subjecting to the Roman theocracy.  From than on the Finnish lion was placed on a blue plaque with three white ribbons, as a duchy - until the Finnish descendant Gustav Wasa made Finland an autonomus Grand duchy.

Though - the Finnish lion can be seen already on the old masterswords that are found in the Finnish king-graves (mounds) from the 7th century.

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

What appointment are you talking about. Innocentius IV renewed his protection over Finland for the second time in 1249. Birger Jaarli was mentioned in Lübeck chronicles later and Finland was mentioned in Swedish church documents 1253 AD. Actually Finns sacrified bulls until the 19th century in Karjala e.g. since the Orthodox church was more tolerant with paganism and shamanism. Finland was not all Christianized on the 17th century yet.


And she is still not - or what...?

Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:



Due to the authrocities of the crusades - as the island of Åland and the capitol areas of southern Finland (Nyland) were completly eradicated. The consequent massacre - as of 1050 - seem to have left the most central areas of the ancient traderoutes unhabitated for close to two centuries. Not before the peace were contracted between the easter and western churches - and the Scadianvian and the Russian nobility - in 1248, did the Finnish nobility and their "large-families" dare to move back and re-populate the arhcipelago of the Åland isles and the coastline between Åbo and Borgå.


What massacre are you referring to?

Quote "Local tradition had it still in the 18th century that a decisive battle against invading Sweden was held in Eura's Big Meadow (Iso Niitty) in the Middle Ages. According to the story, there was blood up to man's ankles on the meadow."
Purhonen, Paula: "Kristinuskon saapumisesta Suomeen". 1998.

According to Adam of Bremen the Swedsih king Anund Jacob was cunning; he was called "Kolbränna" (Blackburner) because his mercenaries had pagan families burnt alive - inside their houses. Like his father Olof Skötkonung he caused coins to be struck at Sigtuna, of which a good few remain. The amount of coins from Anunds regime surpass all that were struck in the next two centuries. He was probably killed during a crusade in Finland 1050.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1050

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0140266534/ref=sib_dp_pt/278-4447192-6506339#reader-link

BANG!-You-are-Dead

"That force was often used in the conversion of northern peoples is undeniable, and it was used with a ferocity and violence beyond anything the conquistadors did in the Americas and far beyond anything that happened in modern Africa or Asia ..."                                                        Andrew Walls, "The Missionary Movement in Christian History", p72



Edited by Boreasi - 19-Feb-2009 at 08:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 08:54
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

The shield of Gustav Wasa looked exactly like that. Though, the political reaity this lion and its 9 roses represent was already a reality as of the coronation of Rurik in 862. When Birger Jarl comes along in 1248-50 the old Finnish king-line abdicates - rather than subjecting to the Roman theocracy.  From than on the Finnish lion was placed on a blue plaque with three white ribbons, as a duchy - until the Finnish descendant Gustav Wasa made Finland an autonomus Grand duchy.

Though - the Finnish lion can be seen already on the old masterswords that are found in the Finnish king-graves (mounds) from the 7th century.

Lions were used by literally thousands of noble dynasties. The lion on the blue plaque on three white ribbons was not the Finnish lion - it was the arms of the Folkunga or Bjälbo dynasty of which Birger jarl was a member.


EDit: the quotes doesn't work of some reason, so I'll do like this.
"According to Adam of Bremen the Swedsih king Anund Jacob was cunning; he was called "Kolbränna" (Blackburner) because his mercenaries had pagan families burnt alive - inside their houses. Like his father Olof Skötkonung he caused coins to be struck at Sigtuna, of which a good few remain. The amount of coins from Anunds regime surpass all that were struck in the next two centuries. He was probably killed during a crusade in Finland 1050."

He was called Blackburner because he had a general tendency to burn the houses of offenders and persons he didn't like - with or without the owner inside, one might presume (Västgötalagen). At his time most of the Swedes were pagans. He didn't go crusading either. We have two accounts on his death that I could find: according to the Hervarar saga he died from sickness; according to Adam he simply "passed away" (text here:http://hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/chrons/bremen.htm). According to Ingvars saga he did went Viking in modern day Latvia though to punish Semigallians who hadn't paid their tribute, but that was earlier.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 19-Feb-2009 at 21:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 19:57

You have gathered a lot of information. Just shortly something. Varangians were not Scandinavians but multinational. Word hurri dates back to the beginning of the 20th century. Hurri has a negative meaning, but other meanings also. Antrean fishnet is interesting, my roots are in Antrea in Kavantsaari. The lion is in e.g. Carta Marina appx 1539. However bears have been used also. Bear is the sacred animal of the Karelians and it is strongly represented in Finnish mythology, "Otso". I have no reason to believe that Rurik would have been Swedish. I also have no reason to believe in massacres and crusades. Paula Purhonen is not a historian, if I do not remember incorrectly, she is also a tourist guide. I would not trust the source with certainty. Eura has been considered to be the place for West-European (not Scandinavian), Anglo-Saxian?, group of movers to Finland and the story is from the 7th century.



Edited by Tuohikirje - 19-Feb-2009 at 20:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 20:07
Thank you for the great work that is! Eventhough I do not agree with all. Geek. Sorry for the lack of sources with my arguements, it would take more time than I have at the moment. I am following your replies with great interest anyway.

Edited by Tuohikirje - 19-Feb-2009 at 20:08
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Haplogroup N - the Fenno-Uralic marker;

Haplogroup N seems pretty distinctly linked to the North-East;

Finland 58,5 %.
Estonia 34 %
Lituania 42 %
Latvia 38 %
Russia 23 %
Sweden 7 %
Norway 4 %
Turkey 4 %

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

See also he extensive spread of Haplogrup N and its various sub-groups;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

Quote

The Finno-Ugric connection

The Finno-Ugric connection, genetics-wise, could be bigger than imagined

By Jukka Rislakki in Tallinn

The latest genetics research indicates that we Finns have a great many "relatives" out there in Eastern Europe and Siberia, and that these peoples share a common ancestor who was apparently Finno-Ugric in origin. At the same time, it would seem that the Estonians are genetically closer to their Latvian neighbours than they are to their linguistic relatives the Finns.


All the "ancient East Europeans" - the group does not include the Slavic tribes, who only turned up around 1400 years ago - have a 40 to 50% incidence of a common paternal genetic inheritance, in other words a unique male Y-chromosome polymorph, according to the Estonian academician and professor of evolutionary biology Richard Villems. The ancient East European races in this context refers to the Balts, the Finns, the Sámi peoples of Lapland, and other races related to the Finno-Ugric stock.

Man emerged originally from Africa, but it is possible that the "Adam" of East European man, or at least one of the Adams, was a Finno-Ugrian, says Villems. In addition to his duties at the University of Tartu, the 56-year-old Villems is Director of the Estonian Biocentre. "Although the Balts (the Latvians and Lithuanians) each speak an Indo-European language, unlike us Finno-Ugrians, they exhibit this chromosome pattern roughly as often as do the Finns, the Karelians, the Estonians, the Sámi, and other Finno-Ugrian groups", Villems argues. In this respect the Balts differ from other Indo-Europeans, whether they may speak Slavic, Germanic, or Romance languages.
   
The remainder of the paternal line comes from the West. On the maternal side, our genetic history ties us inextricably with the Western Europeans. Estonians have only 0.5% Mongol lineage and the Finns around 1%, with the Sámi showing a slightly larger incidence.

The peculiar Y chromosomal DNA variant, known as Tat C, is also dominant in almost all the indigenous peoples of Siberia, from the nomadic Yakuts right across to the Chukchis and Siberian Inuits living on the shores of the Bering Strait - regardless of what language they may communicate in. According to Prof. Villems, the "point" in all this is that among the Finno-Ugric races of Europe this genetic inheritance is much more diverse, more multibranched, and hence apparently older than among any of the Siberian peoples.
   
It is characteristic of the European Finno-Ugrians both in the area of the Baltic Sea and in the Volga region (the ethnic Maris living in the Mari Republic east of Nizhni-Novgorod and west of the Urals). "It is an original Finn-Ugric feature. We have observance of between 35 and 60%, or about half of the paternal inheritance, and it has penetrated to some extent into Norway and rather less to Sweden."
The figures for Poles, Slovaks, and Hungarians are already very very small, however, and in Western and Mediterranean Europe they go right down to zero."

Researchers at Oxford also spotted the spread of this "Northern Gene" three years ago. Villems shrugs his shoulders, "But they simply accepted the old theory: they believed it confirmed the idea that the Finno-Ugric tribes originated from Siberia."
Villems asserts that the contrary is true, however: the movement was one from west to east and not westwards from Siberia. He argues that the genetic variant could have been transported for instance by warriors. "And at the same time they could possibly have carried the proto Finno-Ugric language with them".
   
The same gene morphism has been found from the Inuits of Greenland. On seeing how this mutation has spread right the way across the northern parts of the Northern Hemisphere and nowhere else, the professor has started to wonder if we might be dealing with a gene that somehow helps us to acclimatise ourselves - to withstand extreme cold. 

He also believes that our Finno-Ugrian ancestors might well have been living here a good while before the last Ice Age (around 20,000 years ago). "They could perhaps have arrived even at the same sort of time as the first great wave of migration as man spread into Europe some 40,000 years ago."

There were people living the whole time along the southern fringes of the continental ice mass. When the ice sheets were was at their most extensive, the Finno-Ugric tribe would have lived for some time down in the region between the Don and Dniester rivers, in what is now part of the Ukraine. Radio carbon dating studies show that this area was more densely settled during the Ice Age than it was either before or afterwards. Professor Villems sides with those scholars of linguistics who claim that the original Finno-Ugric tongue was spoken widely through Northern Europe - in Fenno-Scandia and the Baltic region all the way down to the German coast. "This fits the picture very well." (Continues...)
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010130IE4


TAT-c-alleles
http://www.ut.ee/Ural/ingl.html

Fenno-Ugric Ancestry:
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelNr=57985&ProduktNr=224250&filename=57985.pdf

Old Hungarians were FU
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120083459/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Reference work;
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjg/v19n4/a25v19n4.pdf

Quote

Patterns of genetic diversity of populations of the Caucasus, Volga-Ural, Central Asia, and Siberia

A total of 1049 individuals from Volga-Ural region of Russia (Turkic speaking Bashkirs, Tatars, and Finno-Ugric speaking Komis, Maris, Mordvins, and Udmurts), Central Asia (Turkic-speaking Kazakhs, Uzbeks, and Uighurs), the North Caucasus (Turkic speaking Karachays, Kumyks, Kuban Nogays, and Karanogays), and Siberia (Turkic speaking Yakuts, Tungusic speaking Evenks, and Mongolic speaking Kalmyks) were analyzed using eight Alu loci (ACE, ApoA1, PV92, TPA25, NBC27, NBC102, NBC148, and NBC182). Genetic differentiation in various regions of the world was fairly substantial. Basing on 8 Alu loci data Gst value for the world dataset was 0.089. Geographic divide between Europe and Asia, e.g. the Ural Mountains and the Caspian Sea, can also be considered as a genetic boundary. The North Caucasus populations demonstrated genetic pattern which is very close to Near East populations. European populations reflect neither geographic nor linguistic relationships. The data indicates that the populations of the two boundary regions between Europe and Asia, the Volga-Ural region of Russia, and populations of the North Caucasus are more similar to European than to Asian populations. Siberian and Central Asian populations are genetically closely related to each other. The fact that populations of the four regions analyzed fit the genetic variation throughout Eurasia attests that they were involved in the same major demographic processes that took place within the continent no matter what genetic differences or similarities the populations demonstrate.

http://www.abstractsonline.com/viewer/viewAbstractPrintFriendly.asp?CKey={D5EDE33C-8998-4923-9ED0-EC90E75B6356}&SKey={00576D99-8AD7-4AF5-A265-E98ACCC335EC}&MKey={CFA3EC71-B100-4F89-928C-92A1239F5353}&AKey={384D2523-AA39-4B08-A120-38A9AB93ADA3

Etecetera;
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1182438818






Edited by Boreasi - 23-Feb-2009 at 03:54
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Originally posted by tuohkirje tuohkirje wrote:

I also have no reason to believe in massacres and crusades. Paula Purhonen is not a historian, if I do not remember incorrectly, she is also a tourist guide. I would not trust the source with certainty.
 
Hmmm.
Mrs. Purhonen seems to be a highly trusted prfessional...
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 02-Mar-2009 at 08:13
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Today in Estonia and Finland geneticists and archaeologist have focused on the theory that the Fenno-Ugric languages speaking people arrived here immediately after the end of the ice age. No one does not take anymore seriously the arrival of Siberian theory because it does not confirmed by nor archaeological or genetic research. Later a large migration to Estonia and Finland has not been revealed.

According to Richard Villems, haolgrupp N spread from west to east rather than east to west:
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010130IE4
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Villems2004.pdf
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Tambets2001.pdf
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rootsi2000.pdf

Interesting information about Rurik:
Y-DNA (37 markers) database including Rurikid princes and those males who are also suspecting their descent from Rurik (the 1st Russian prince, 9th century). Contains currently the following surnames : Gorchakov, Kosonen, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Mozarowski (and variants), Obolensky, Ossowiecki, Poscharsky, Puzyna, Rostowsky, Shahovskoi, Solomin, Szuyski, Tolloczko, Trubetsky and Volkonsky. However, in spite of their “princely” surnames, only a couple of them were found to be genetic descendants of Rurik. Besides, it was discovered that the Volkonsky/Obolensky branch is of a Slavic descent (genetic haplogroup R1a1), and most probably the princes in this branch are not descended from Rurik. By all means it seems that Rurik was a historical person who was born on the Rosl*gen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden). However, he was of the Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N3a1 (currently, it has been denoted N1c1a) - although, theoretically, this could have been the Obolensky branch which might be descended from Rurik). Results for people whose surnames are marked with green background were provided by Nikita Maximov, the Scientific Editor of the Russian Newsweek. They are not to be taken away from here unless a written permission from him will be obtained.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=219829&page=4

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