History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedFinno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 26272829>
Author
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 2818
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 11:01
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:


If there ever was a guy called Rurik, there is no need to look for his roots anywhere else than at Ladoga-region. No Scandinavian source knows people called the Rus', no runestone has name Rurik (or Riurik, or Juurik or any other of those theories).

Rurik (or rather Hrurik, Hrörik and later Rörik, which are the Swedish versions) appears on a number of stones, eg: stone Sö159, "Hrörik, Gudmund, Gunnleif cut the runes", stone U934: "Thori and Rörik and Karl, the brothers..." and Ög153: "Hrörik raised this stone after Frode and Asbiorn, his sons". Obviously not the same Rurik, but the name was quite common in eastern Sweden.

As for the name Rus, the Finnish Ruotsi might come from Roden or Rosl*gen, the coastal area of eastern Sweden. This is theories though.
Back to Top
Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Rurik (or rather Hrurik, Hrörik and later Rörik, which are the Swedish versions) appears on a number of stones, eg: stone Sö159, "Hrörik, Gudmund, Gunnleif cut the runes", stone U934: "Thori and Rörik and Karl, the brothers..." and Ög153: "Hrörik raised this stone after Frode and Asbiorn, his sons". Obviously not the same Rurik, but the name was quite common in eastern Sweden.

As for the name Rus, the Finnish Ruotsi might come from Roden or Rosl*gen, the coastal area of eastern Sweden. This is theories though.


Actual Russian form for the name is Riurik. I cant see how the Old Norse name Hrörekr would become Riurik (rather Jurik etc). Obviously we can assume some sort of "Old Finnish" intermediatery form which the Slavic for would sprung up.

However, thats not very convincing. Lot of those interpration of old names seem rather fishy to me. Forexample Oleg, which is supposedly same as Old Norse Helgi. I'm no professional on Old Russian pronounciation but H should actually became J (compare the old Finnish tribe Häme which is changed into Jem' in chronicles).

There is tons of assumptions on those names, generation after generation of scholars have builded up their theories on theories of the older generations, finally they are accepted as truth. When we keep in mind the disastrous normannist vs anti-normannist dispute it comes clear that lot of those conclusions are made mostly to align with principal school of debatter.

Same goes to theory of Ros lagen. For that to happend it would require finnish speakers to live there. Whats the other explanation for them to use finnish word as selfdescription!

As far as I know, there is no proof for Finnish speaking people inhabiting Ros Lagen area during Viking age. Another thing is ofcource the word Ruotsi itself. Original meaning of Ruotsi is not ethnonym. It's professional term. It simply means rower, a member of the ships staff.

Western Finns, living on the other side of Gulf of Bothnia, called their western neighbours as Ruotsi, as they came to them by means of rowing. More eastern Finns, such as Karelians and Veps, called the more western Finns with the same name!  This has been attested even in historical times. Orthodox Karelians referred to Finnish people as Ruotsi.

Not a single Scandinavian source ever mentions Rus' (but Frankish annals do). King of Gardar is mentioned, some are even named, but none is called Rus'. As the Khaganate of Rus' is identified at Ladogan area, why would they use self identification term loaned from western Finns, living hundreds of kilometers west!? This makes absolutely no sense.

Best explanation is that Rus' were initially multinational people, trading block if you wish. They were formed as nation in the shores of Ladoga and Volkhov-river. They did not come from anywhere, as traditionally thought. The Word Rus' also semantically has perfectly reasonable origins in Veps language, as colour red. Red colour was associated with welth and prestice. Aldeigja was afterall, build on their land. Funny thing is that there still exists few thousend of the Veps people. Most of the world (including Russians) dont know anything about them, that they even exist.






Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 2818
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 12:25
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:


Actual Russian form for the name is Riurik. I cant see how the Old Norse name Hrörekr would become Riurik (rather Jurik etc). Obviously we can assume some sort of "Old Finnish" intermediatery form which the Slavic for would sprung up.

They are very similar in pronounciation and to me it's quite probable that it is the same name. In the same manner Hrödleif became Rulav, Hroald Rulev etc.
Quote
Same goes to theory of Ros lagen. For that to happend it would require finnish speakers to live there. Whats the other explanation for them to use finnish word as selfdescription!


The theory goes the other way around, that the Finns got the name Ruotsi from the Swedes, not that they invented it themselves. As for the "rowing" theory, I find it quite suspicious - in any case that's a Scandinavian word, rodr. It is usually claimed the name Roden and Rosl*gen comes from this [Scandinavian, not Finnish] word.
Quote
Best explanation is that Rus' were initially multinational people, trading block if you wish. They were formed as nation in the shores of Ladoga and Volkhov-river. They did not come from anywhere, as traditionally thought. The Word Rus' also semantically has perfectly reasonable origins in Veps language, as colour red. Red colour was associated with welth and prestice. Aldeigja was afterall, build on their land. Funny thing is that there still exists few thousend of the Veps people. Most of the world (including Russians) dont know anything about them, that they even exist.

Well, what they were is a completely different question than what the etymology of the word is. My current belief is that they were initially dominantly Scandinavians, but also with Finnish and Slavic elements and than gradually replaced by Slavs. This belief comes from the Arabic as well as Russian and Byzantine sources.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 13-Feb-2009 at 12:27
Back to Top
Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 13:39
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


The theory goes the other way around, that the Finns got the name Ruotsi from the Swedes, not that they invented it themselves. As for the "rowing" theory, I find it quite suspicious - in any case that's a Scandinavian word, rodr. It is usually claimed the name Roden and Rosl*gen comes from this [Scandinavian, not Finnish] word.
[quote]

Basic normannist theory for name Rus' is through Finnish language. Finnic Ruotsi (or Rootsi) -> Slavonic Rus'. Idea behind this is from Old Norse rodhs -> finnic rots -> slavic rus (see Vilhelm Thomssen).  So infact we should have slavic speakers in Rosl*gen.

[quote]
Well, what they were is a completely different question than what the etymology of the word is. My current belief is that they were initially dominantly Scandinavians, but also with Finnish and Slavic elements and than gradually replaced by Slavs. This belief comes from the Arabic as well as Russian and Byzantine sources.


Few things I want to comment. I too think that the (east) Scandinavian element was significant in the early Rus' (Khaganate of Rus'). Infact I consider that as fact. Also there was "Finnish" component in the Rus' from the very beginning. Finnish is very bad word, infact it is wrong.

During Viking age there were Finns-proper (Suomalaiset -> annalistic Sum'), living in Southwest Finland, there was Tavastians (Häme -> annalistic Jem') living in Ostrobothnian coast aswell as Southern Finland.

In Ladoga region there were people whom were infact not "Finnish" at all, they were Baltic-Finns evidently, like the Veps' and the Chud', yet West Finns likely would not have necessarily understanded their language and used some common language, like Old Norse or later Slavic (Old Russian) in their internal communication. Same goes to Merya people.

We also should not rule out Saamic component in the population, as Saami used to inhabit much larger territories in the east as they do now.

Archeology of Aldeigja/Staraya Ladoga points out that there was East Scandinavian people, Western Finns aswell as autochtonous Finnic people of the region included in the population. Major iron age archeological expansion to region however, comes from western Finland, not from east Scandinavia. These people were part of forming the Rus' and later gave major body of people known as Karelians.

Remember that the town of Aldeigja has very real "Finnish" etymology, Scandinavians borrowed the name of the town Alodejogi (Alajoki in modern Finnish). Later that very same town name gave her name Slavic Ladoga, which was inturn loaned back to Finnish as Laatokka.

What I'm criticising is the basic assumption that the Rus' need to come from somewhere. Their families lived in Aldeigja, they were buried there etc. It is obvious to me that their ethnicity was allso formed there, from the different components that were present. Slavic component in the Rus' is only attested during the Kievan Rus' period, allthough it is very likely that there was Slavic speakers allready in the early period of Novgorod. There is growing body of evidence that there may have been Slavs around the region as early as 7-8th century but that is still speculation imo. Theory is based on oven types, which are very similar to those in certainly Slavic regions.






Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 18:32
Thank you, absolutely. I am aware of the unreliability of the sources including this Russian Empress and Ynglinga.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 2818
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 19:33
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:


Basic normannist theory for name Rus' is through Finnish language. Finnic Ruotsi (or Rootsi) -> Slavonic Rus'. Idea behind this is from Old Norse rodhs -> finnic rots -> slavic rus (see Vilhelm Thomssen).  So infact we should have slavic speakers in Rosl*gen.


Basic Normanist approach is that the name Roden gave rise to the Finnish Ruotsi and later Slavic Rus. Roden is the Scandinavian name of the place, and is the area from where all Swedish voyages east sailed out from. There is no need to have any Finnic or Slavic speakers present there. Other than that I have no objections against your post.
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 20:32
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:


Basic normannist theory for name Rus' is through Finnish language. Finnic Ruotsi (or Rootsi) -> Slavonic Rus'. Idea behind this is from Old Norse rodhs -> finnic rots -> slavic rus (see Vilhelm Thomssen).  So infact we should have slavic speakers in Rosl*gen.


Basic Normanist approach is that the name Roden gave rise to the Finnish Ruotsi and later Slavic Rus. Roden is the Scandinavian name of the place, and is the area from where all Swedish voyages east sailed out from. There is no need to have any Finnic or Slavic speakers present there. Other than that I have no objections against your post.
 
The Naming of Russia, Hakon Stang, 1996. "The connection between Balto-Fennic ruotsi (etc.) and Roåen, Roåsl*gen, first suggested by Bureus, is even more problematic, having been subjected to devastating criticism on the part of Scandinavian philologists of a Normanist persuasion. The nickname Rospiggar, preserved until our days within the area of the one-time Rosla-gen military call-up, as well as Roslep, Rosta and the likes in Esthonia, are not derivatives of the form *röther<er ‘rowing, shipping’ as suggested,1 since the composite with the genitive case is not röth(er)s-byggiar but röthar-byggiar; which is commensurate with neither the Swedish names in question nor with the Finnish ruotsi.2"

Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 2818
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 21:21
Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

 
The Naming of Russia, Hakon Stang, 1996. "The connection between Balto-Fennic ruotsi (etc.) and Roåen, Roåsl*gen, first suggested by Bureus, is even more problematic, having been subjected to devastating criticism on the part of Scandinavian philologists of a Normanist persuasion. The nickname Rospiggar, preserved until our days within the area of the one-time Rosla-gen military call-up, as well as Roslep, Rosta and the likes in Esthonia, are not derivatives of the form *röther<er ‘rowing, shipping’ as suggested,1 since the composite with the genitive case is not röth(er)s-byggiar but röthar-byggiar; which is commensurate with neither the Swedish names in question nor with the Finnish ruotsi.2"


I don't think Rosl*gen (it's Ros-lagen by the way, not Rosla-gen - just to clarify) connected to rowing at all. On the other hand I don't think that necessarily mean that it comes from a Finnish word either. Many placenames are very old, and we will never know what they originally meant.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 13-Feb-2009 at 21:40
Back to Top
Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 22:02
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Basic Normanist approach is that the name Roden gave rise to the Finnish Ruotsi and later Slavic Rus. Roden is the Scandinavian name of the place, and is the area from where all Swedish voyages east sailed out from. There is no need to have any Finnic or Slavic speakers present there. Other than that I have no objections against your post.


Thats exactly the problem I see with this Ros Lagen theory. Rodhs can not become Ros without passing through Finnish and ending up in Slavic. Otherwise it would still be Rodhsl*gen.

I disagree that northern Uppland is the only source or even the original source of east Scandinavians in formation of the Rus'. Names attested in the early Rus'-Byzantine contracts point to very different area. Östergotland (Eastern Götaland) that is.  Names in those contracts resemble much more of those found in runestones in this particular area.

Proper Svear names usually have this two-part character (Stor-Björn :) , Great-Bear) . While the names in Östergotlandish runestones are short and simple, one part names. Another thing which leds me to think this way is timing of those runestones. Most of the early runestones mentioning the east lands are from that region, from early 900's. Men whom went to east or to Serkland (Serkland = Greece = Byzant) are typical in the runestones only from 1000 AD onwards in other parts of Sweden, even later in Norway and Iceland. Basically the Varangian Guard was well established in the Byzant prior massive participation from east Scandinavia.





Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 00:15
The roots of words like Ros/Rus and Gard/Gàrd are easily connected to the old IE language of the north, where Ros means Rose and Gard means Yard. Thus the name of "Ros-land" and the "Garda-riki" can be logicaly understood as the Scandinavian exonyms of prehistoric Russia.

The fact that the populations there were Fenno-Ugrians - calling themselves "Sarenmatians", etc. doesn't contradict that. When the nobility of their Swedish trade-partners were asked to help out, as a third and "neutral" party - between the FU and the intruding Kazars and Slavs - the Swedish names for this vast area came into official use, as a unifying princip.

The FU name for the bi-lingual Finns were called "Ruotsi", since they spoke the IE "Root-lanuage". Another name for these coastal, bilngial Finns were "Hurri".

As the Swedes have a singing accent of the same "root" language the FU discrimnated the Swedes from the southern (coast-line) Finns, by calling the former "Ruotsinlainen" and their language "Ruotsinkielli".

According to modern research the Finns were a highly influencial part of the old communication between east and west - who had inhabittated the eastern part of Eurasia continoulsy since Megalithic time. Later results seem to explain that the spread of the FU population came from the eastern Baltic, with an epicentre around Carelia.

This seem to point to Savolax/Savolinna and Ladoga/Holmgard as the old centres of these populations. Finally that seems to imply that the old rulers of the FU Russia were placed in this area, until the Swedish prince Erik were asked to marry a FU (Vendic) princess and organize a new dynasty - as the Rex (Rik) of the Rus. Consequently he became Ru-rik, with his second son Helge as crown-prince Oleg. Thus the Linga-line was made.

Back in Finland the old (heathen) kingline now limited themselves to gouvern nine states only, i.e. the 3 Baltic states, and 6 in Carelia and present Finland.  Thus the present heraldic shield of Finland carries the Lion  with 9 roses.

When the invading crusaders finally arrived in the Finnish Bay, as of 1050,  they fled their old capitols to hide in the northern forrest - on the border between Lappland and Kvenland (Kainuu). A small castle in the present town of Kajaani is said to have been the "last refugee" of the old Finnish kingline.

When the great schism between Rome and Istanbul ceeded the Swedes were apointed the reign of Finland. Thus the last pagan kingdom in Europe became subject to the Catholic church - as they merged with Sweden in 1249/50.
http://www.kajaneborg.com

Due to the authrocities of the crusades - as the island of Åland and the capitol areas of southern Finland (Nyland) were completly eradicated. The consequent massacre - as of 1050 - seem to have left the most central areas of the ancient traderoutes unhabitated for close to two centuries. Not before the peace were contracted between the easter and western churches - and the Scadianvian and the Russian nobility - in 1248, did the Finnish nobility and their "large-families" dare to move back and re-populate the arhcipelago of the Åland isles and the coastline between Åbo and Borgå.
 
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 15:16
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

The roots of words like Ros/Rus and Gard/Gàrd are easily connected to the old IE language of the north, where Ros means Rose and Gard means Yard. Thus the name of "Ros-land" and the "Garda-riki" can be logicaly understood as the Scandinavian exonyms of prehistoric Russia.
 
What old IE language of the north you speak about possibly? E.g. in Finnish word ruskea has ment red (nowadays brown), aamurusko (red dawn/morning).  In Veps rōč, out of which ruotsi and rus were transferred to Greeks and Arabs. Only Scandinavians did not use word rus.

*Ruske -> russkij

Håkon Stang University of Oslo The Naming of Russia 300. The conclusion is "red", Veps word rōč.


The fact that the populations there were Fenno-Ugrians - calling themselves "Sarenmatians", etc. doesn't contradict that. When the nobility of their Swedish trade-partners were asked to help out, as a third and "neutral" party - between the FU and the intruding Kazars and Slavs - the Swedish names for this vast area came into official use, as a unifying princip.
 
There are no indications that Rurik was Swedish or that the origin of the names were Swedish.

The FU name for the bi-lingual Finns were called "Ruotsi", since they spoke the IE "Root-lanuage". Another name for these coastal, bilngial Finns were "Hurri".
 
What IE root-language Finns have spoken? Ruotsi name is said to have origin from the rus. Finns called Finnish-Swedish speakers or Swedish speakers hurri (hur/u) but this word has emerged into use later in history.

As the Swedes have a singing accent of the same "root" language the FU discrimnated the Swedes from the southern (coast-line) Finns, by calling the former "Ruotsinlainen" and their language "Ruotsinkielli".
 
Ruotsalainen, ruotsin kieli. I do not agree with the discrimination or your proposal of the origin of the words.

According to modern research the Finns were a highly influencial part of the old communication between east and west - who had inhabittated the eastern part of Eurasia continoulsy since Megalithic time. Later results seem to explain that the spread of the FU population came from the eastern Baltic, with an epicentre around Carelia.
 
West, South, East.

This seem to point to Savolax/Savolinna and Ladoga/Holmgard as the old centres of these populations. Finally that seems to imply that the old rulers of the FU Russia were placed in this area, until the Swedish prince Erik were asked to marry a FU (Vendic) princess and organize a new dynasty - as the Rex (Rik) of the Rus. Consequently he became Ru-rik, with his second son Helge as crown-prince Oleg. Thus the Linga-line was made.
 
Who is Erik and to who you refer as a princess.

Back in Finland the old (heathen) kingline now limited themselves to gouvern nine states only, i.e. the 3 Baltic states, and 6 in Carelia and present Finland.  Thus the present heraldic shield of Finland carries the Lion  with 9 roses.
 
"A crowned lion of gold holding a sword in the right forepaw and trampling with both hindpaws on a Russian sabre (ryssesabel), surrounded by nine silver roses in a red field, over the shield a golden crown with a red cap." This is from the 16th century.

When the invading crusaders finally arrived in the Finnish Bay, as of 1050,  they fled their old capitols to hide in the northern forrest - on the border between Lappland and Kvenland (Kainuu). A small castle in the present town of Kajaani is said to have been the "last refugee" of the old Finnish kingline.
 
What crusaders 1050 AD?

When the great schism between Rome and Istanbul ceeded the Swedes were apointed the reign of Finland. Thus the last pagan kingdom in Europe became subject to the Catholic church - as they merged with Sweden in 1249/50.
http://www.kajaneborg.com
 
What appointment are you talking about. Innocentius IV renewed his protection over Finland for the second time in 1249. Birger Jaarli was mentioned in Lübeck chronicles later and Finland was mentioned in Swedish church documents 1253 AD. Actually Finns sacrified bulls until the 19th century in Karjala e.g. since the Orthodox church was more tolerant with paganism and shamanism. Finland was not all Christianized on the 17th century yet.

Due to the authrocities of the crusades - as the island of Åland and the capitol areas of southern Finland (Nyland) were completly eradicated. The consequent massacre - as of 1050 - seem to have left the most central areas of the ancient traderoutes unhabitated for close to two centuries. Not before the peace were contracted between the easter and western churches - and the Scadianvian and the Russian nobility - in 1248, did the Finnish nobility and their "large-families" dare to move back and re-populate the arhcipelago of the Åland isles and the coastline between Åbo and Borgå.
 
What massacre are you referring to. There is no evidence of significant violent clashes.

 


Edited by Tuohikirje - 15-Feb-2009 at 17:26
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 17:40
How Moskvan became Moskva...

New discovery in Suzdal (summer 2008);

"It was the Finns who were the pioneers of farming in the territory. In addition, they were good, many jewelers and jewelry came to us from the Finnish culture."


Niolai Makarov,
Director of the Institute of Archeology, Russian Academy of Sciences


http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=198415

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vesti.ru%2Fdoc.html%3Fid%3D198415



Edited by Boreasi - 15-Feb-2009 at 17:45
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 17:48
Boreasi, is your information from Ior Bock's Bock-family saga ? I personally know Ior Bock (his real name is Bror Svedlin). Ior is no historian, he was an touristguide in Sveaborg (historical stonefort in Helsinki archipelago) and was fired because he started to make up all those stories.

He is a new age guru and good old fashion storyteller. His stories are just stories. Nice and fantastic, not historical at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ior_Bock




Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 17:51
Originally posted by Tuohikirje Tuohikirje wrote:

[QUOTE=Boreasi]The roots of words like Ros/Rus and Gard/Gàrd are easily connected to the old IE language of the north, where Ros means Rose and Gard means Yard. Thus the name of "Ros-land" and the "Garda-riki" can be logicaly understood as the Scandinavian exonyms of prehistoric Russia.
 
What old IE language of the north you speak about possibly? E.g. in Finnish word ruskea has ment red (nowadays brown), aamurusko (red dawn/morning).  In Veps rōč, out of which ruotsi and rus were transferred to Greeks and Arabs. Only Scandinavians did not use word rus.

*Ruske -> russkij

Håkon Stang University of Oslo The Naming of Russia 300. The conclusion is "red", Veps word rōč.


The fact that the populations there were Fenno-Ugrians - calling themselves "Sarenmatians", etc. doesn't contradict that. When the nobility of their Swedish trade-partners were asked to help out, as a third and "neutral" party - between the FU and the intruding Kazars and Slavs - the Swedish names for this vast area came into official use, as a unifying princip.
 
There are no indications that Rurik was Swedish or that the origin of the names were Swedish.

The FU name for the bi-lingual Finns were called "Ruotsi", since they spoke the IE "Root-lanuage". Another name for these coastal, bilngial Finns were "Hurri".
 
What IE root-language Finns have spoken? Ruotsi name is said to have origin from the rus. Finns called Finnish-Swedish speakers or Swedish speakers hurri (hur/u) but this word has emerged into use later in history.


http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=20088&PN=25
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 18:07
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

How Moskvan became Moskva...

New discovery in Suzdal (summer 2008);

"It was the Finns who were the pioneers of farming in the territory. In addition, they were good, many jewelers and jewelry came to us from the Finnish culture."


Niolai Makarov,
Director of the Institute of Archeology, Russian Academy of Sciences


http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=198415

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vesti.ru%2Fdoc.html%3Fid%3D198415

 
Of the origin of the name Moskva.
 
The world Moscow is not a slavic word, but ugr-Finn. (Kliuchevsky< V. O. - Sochynenyya v 8 t. M. Gospolitizdat, 1956 t.1 p. 294.

1) Moska ava - a female bear (moska - bear,ava - mother , woman)
2) from Finnish word musta - black, dirty, and va - water ie dirty water (ref Mustajoki)
3) Moska - cow, and va - water i.e. "cow puddle".
(Fesmer 's Etymological dictiornary of the Russian Language published in Moscow in 1967).
4) Mosk'vi, Uralic word, "to wash".
 
The Merya people.
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 18:13
I did not look at your link. I have for instance repeated the same old story about the Rosl*gen theory. It is only a Normanist theory.
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 18:15
What IE root language? Question
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 18:18
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:

Boreasi, is your information from Ior Bock's Bock-family saga ? I personally know Ior Bock (his real name is Bror Svedlin). Ior is no historian, he was an touristguide in Sveaborg (historical stonefort in Helsinki archipelago) and was fired because he started to make up all those stories.

He is a new age guru and good old fashion storyteller. His stories are just stories. Nice and fantastic, not historical at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ior_Bock


As far as I know Mr. Bock claims to be the orator of an old Finnish family-saga, with roots back in "heathen time".  Thus it may be seen as a parallell to the oral traditions that were collected by the folklorists of the 19th century - such as the Kalevala.

From what I have understood any story about a heathen culture of the Finns was very touch, not to say "politically uncorrect" in the Nokia-country as of 1990 - and thus he has been "explained" as a "hoax". Perhaps so - but so far I haven't seen any serious study of this extensive material published - so it's hard to say whats what.

About a decade ago I got a book about it called "Bockin Perheen Saaga" - but unrtunately I don't read Finnish. Have you read it?



Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 18:19
Good observation, the source seems identical.
 
I was thinking...there is something wrong. It was too thick to swallow. LOL
Back to Top
Tuohikirje View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jan-2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tuohikirje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 18:24
He has mixed some archeological sites, true and imaginary history into his family saga. The combination is very confusing to most, who can link something with true events.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 26272829>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.061 seconds.