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Forum LockedFinno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2008 at 23:05
I read somewhere that Rusians descendend of the mixture of Norse and local people. That doesn't apply then?
 
In anycase, for me, as an observer from the antipodes, it is very hard to distinguish a Swedish, a Finn, a Danish, a Western Russian, a Polish or a German. They all look so much similar to me that I wonder why people of those regions make so much differences. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2008 at 23:43
I'm sure you kan find individuals that would fit into any of those countries. There are sometimes some subtle difference between west and east. I suppose the Finns are in the middle. There are many Finns that look Russian and many Russians that look Finnish, no matter if they like it or not. But there are also types in Russia that isn't very common in Finland or the rest of Europe. Who is the "original" type? How is it even possible to determine that?
Even if Russians look Northern European in general, they have types that are completely alien to Western Europe (and I'm not talking about Siberian minorities or Caucasians). This suggests that Russians have some sort of multiple origin. Which of them who was Slavic originally or Finnic originally or perhaps something else originally, that's pretty much undeterminable, so it can be discussed forever with no real resolution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2008 at 23:54
You bet, but why Scandinavians and Germans allways avoid to say that Russians are theirs genetical relatives? Besides Finn, Slave or even Tartar blood, Russians also have Germanic and Norse blood on them, history say so.
Even more, you can find "oriental" looking people among Swedish and Germans as well, so what's the difference? 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 01-Dec-2008 at 23:56
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 05:47
Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

I'm sure you kan find individuals that would fit into any of those countries. There are sometimes some subtle difference between west and east. I suppose the Finns are in the middle. There are many Finns that look Russian and many Russians that look Finnish, no matter if they like it or not. But there are also types in Russia that isn't very common in Finland or the rest of Europe. Who is the "original" type? How is it even possible to determine that?
Even if Russians look Northern European in general, they have types that are completely alien to Western Europe (and I'm not talking about Siberian minorities or Caucasians). This suggests that Russians have some sort of multiple origin. Which of them who was Slavic originally or Finnic originally or perhaps something else originally, that's pretty much undeterminable, so it can be discussed forever with no real resolution.
 
Yes, this is true. Russia is a huge country with a very diverse population. While in the South historically there is admixture from Turkic and people of Caucasus in the North there is one with Scandinavians and Finnic people and this clearly visible in phenotype as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 05:52
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet, but why Scandinavians and Germans allways avoid to say that Russians are theirs genetical relatives? Besides Finn, Slave or even Tartar blood, Russians also have Germanic and Norse blood on them, history say so.
Even more, you can find "oriental" looking people among Swedish and Germans as well, so what's the difference? 
 
I don't think they avoid it. In fact, this topic isn't really so actively discussed. But there is no doubt that Germans for example have high rate of Slavic blood in them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 07:42
Originally posted by Whiteice Whiteice wrote:

I always thought Finnish people were Russian descendants? I'm probabely wrong but wasn't Finland formed as a nation after WWI when most of the countries involved signed the Treaty of Versailles in attempt to shrink some of the more powerful nations such as Germany? Hope to get an answer soon, thanks!


Distinguish between nations, peoples and states. The Republic of Finland formed after the Great War, the the Finns have been living in the area for thousands of years.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
In anycase, for me, as an observer from the antipodes, it is very hard to distinguish a Swedish, a Finn, a Danish, a Western Russian, a Polish or a German. They all look so much similar to me that I wonder why people of those regions make so much differences. 

Well, those foreigners all look the same Wink

It's quite a big difference between Russians and Scandinavians, it's very easy - at least for me - to see it. I think you'd see the difference as well, at least after getting used to it. I can understand why North Germans are indistinguishable from Danes and Swedes though (except in clothing and hair style: infiltrating Germans can be easily spotted in a crowd).

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet, but why Scandinavians and Germans allways avoid to say that Russians are theirs genetical relatives? Besides Finn, Slave or even Tartar blood, Russians also have Germanic and Norse blood on them, history say so.
Even more, you can find "oriental" looking people among Swedish and Germans as well, so what's the difference? 

The "oriental" looking indegenous people in Sweden are primarily the Sami, and the count around 20,000 people, quite a minority. Among the indegenous Swedes, it's not so common although there has of course been a lot of intermarrying going around, especially in the North. I don't think we have that much Russian blood, but we're quite mixed with the Finns on the other hand. Some areas have a large part of German ancestry as well (Stockholm had a very large German population during the Middle Ages). The ethnic background of the Scandinavians is not very known in any case. Generally these things are nothing people think about in general, so it's not that people are avoiding it - we just don't care.
 



Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Dec-2008 at 07:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 08:45
Same same.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from-eulau.html


Edited by Boreasi - 02-Dec-2008 at 08:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 11:41
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

...
The "oriental" looking indegenous people in Sweden are primarily the Sami, and the count around 20,000 people, quite a minority. Among the indegenous Swedes, it's not so common although there has of course been a lot of intermarrying going around, especially in the North. I don't think we have that much Russian blood, but we're quite mixed with the Finns on the other hand. Some areas have a large part of German ancestry as well (Stockholm had a very large German population during the Middle Ages). The ethnic background of the Scandinavians is not very known in any case. Generally these things are nothing people think about in general, so it's not that people are avoiding it - we just don't care.
 
 
Actually, I wasn't thinking on the Sami minority, but in two of the four singers of ABBA. Haven't you notice the blond girl and man are strangely oriental looking? I have. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 12:48
The Samis used to populate about half the landmass that is now Scandinavia, and seeing as these people didn't simply disappear it should come as no surprise that there may be more Mongoloid in us than most believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Falchion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

The Samis used to populate about half the landmass that is now Scandinavia, and seeing as these people didn't simply disappear it should come as no surprise that there may be more Mongoloid in us than most believe.


It's a common misconception that the Sami would be "mongoloid" or Asiatic. But genetically the Sami people do not originate from Asia but from western Europe.
The Asiatic looks of the Sami could be from intermixing with North Asian populations and living extended periods in isolation from other populations. But it could just as well be that this (or something similar) is what the earliest Europeans would have looked like.

Sami are the ancestors of Stone Age Europeans who migrated to Northern Europe from the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal) when the Ice Age ended.

The Finno-Ugric language of the Sami is the result of later assimilation process from the Finno-Ugric migrations moving in from the east and having cultural and genetic exchange with the Sami. The original pre-Finno-Ugric language of the Sami is not know but it could be related to Basque and extinct pre-Indo-European Iberian languages.
The Sami are considered one of the only to living indigenous European peoples (along with the Basque) because they are believed to possess some of the oldest European genetic and cultural lineages way back to earliest human populations in Europe.

This is the prevalent theory on the origins of Sami at the moment based on the latest genetic research.


Edited by Falchion - 02-Dec-2008 at 14:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 14:34
Although some Sámi may have some slight (fairly recent) Samoyed ancestry as a possibility, I don't think it is common. They don't look different from other people on average, but individuals may look "exotic". It certainly doesn't mean that there should be any particular "Mongoloid" traits in Northern Europe compared to other parts of Europe. Some people may look exotic to people that are not used to their looks, but they don't look "Mongoloid" and certainly not East Asian at all.
Heck, in the fifties some Sámi herders went to Greenland to start a reindeer herding business, and they went back later with their Inuit wives. One of them had a lot of children, so if you saw a Sámi from that line, you may automatically think that the "Sámi" are semi-Asian. So just because some of them look kind of unusual doesn't mean that Sámi are in any way Mongoloid at all. It is also said that they learned animal husbandry from Samoyeds in very recent times - I don't know if that is really true, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 14:51
Correct, which is why I used "":s around oriental: they aren't.




Pingiun: really? I don't find any of them particularly Asian at all.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Dec-2008 at 14:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 16:29
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:

But they're fairer than mediterraneans? Not only skin tone, but also their facial structures are very similar to their northern neighbors.
 
Their northern neighbors are Hungarians and Romanians and usually they are also darker than Russians, Ukrainians and Poles.
 
Well, anyway I think it's much easier to distinguish A Russian from a Bulgarian than a Russian from Ukrainian or Pole.


The Bulgarian are the most typical of the "slavonic people". It was the old Bulgarians that ran Istan-bul before the Turks came by, exchanged the emperor for a sultan and made he old Cosmopolis muslim. Thus the Haga Sofia had to move - creating the thrakian Sofia as a "diasporan" metropolis.

The language of the eastern empirical structure, i.e. the greek/roman church, did not change though. Still  today its found as the Greek-Orthodox church - with a language that still show clear-cut similarites with the old Bulgarian language. 

In 987 this system reached Kiev and Norvgorod - and made the Russians speak "slavonic".
Some centuries later the Russian-orthodox church became independant, starting a 3rd Rome as they made Kremlin the new Metropolite. Thus we have to review the "Slavonian" dimension as a matter of a language - that spread due to economical pressure and political (read; religious) conquest,  rather than millitary invasion, etnic cleansing and immigration.

Before the massive spread of the eastern church with its Bulgar/Slavon language and its own, grylic alphabeth - the eastern cultures north of the Black Sea-Caspian Sea were basically caucasian AND Fenno-Ugrian. The exceptions are found between around the Back Sea were the collected Greek-Roman forces, during the growth of the Roman empire became invaded. A similar invasion of Bactra and their eastern teritory were made by the new Persian emperors after Xerxes.

Before that time the trade between Asia and Europe went though the river systems of Volga, Don, Djepr and Donau/Wizla - to the Baltic area and the Gulf of Finand. A common genetic origin are clearly seen within the so-called "Fenno-Ugrian" AND the "Baltic" cultures, even if the Finns speak "uralic" and the Latvians and the Lituanians are kategorized as "Indo-European" Somehow that map doesnt really match the terrain...

http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010130IE4

Further explanation about the etnic unity of the Finnish and the IE Baltics is further explained here.

Consequently it becomes illusional to talk about "slavic etnicities" - unless we direct the focus to the old Bulgarians - that wandered from the Ukranian to the old Thrakian area, were they became "slavs".

Terms as "slavic expansions" can asily be misinterpretated. Much like the story about the ancient farmers that once spread agri-culture thoughout Eurasia.

Eurasian genetics


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003519

//Genetics tells us that farming spread by diffusion rather than migration. So, - also the story about the ancient "aryans" who once exported the culture of agriculture and its art and litterature to areas like Persia and India.  Todays we know that it didnt happen as "invasions" - but by these arians sending delegations and envoys - that obviousluy beame married into the higher nobility.  In a pyramidal reproduction system - with limited axcess duplicate - these noblemen could  make a large impact also on the genetics of the comming generations. The higher casts seem to have saved that impact untilla today - by inter-marriage within their respective casts. // 

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Quintana-Murci-Iran.pdf

The genetics of Finland and Russia seem to bear witness of a similar sysem, where specific lines of the male DNA are kept continous witin the various regions. Which means that the sons, son-sons or son-son-sons of the head of state are the only ones allowed to reproduce. Thus each generation born would be children of "great grandad" - as the Russians always used to call their dear old "tsarevitch", who used to send his sons to be dukes of each "shire". Here's the latest reviewed update on Russian DNA;

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-of-russians.html



Recent archaeological discoveries along Volga underlines the reltionship betwen the Finnish and Russians - well before the greek christianization and mongol invasions started to rumble; 

"It was the Finns were pioneers farming in the territory - explains Nikolai Makarov. - In addition, they were good, many jewelers and jewelry came to us from the Finnish culture."

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vesti.ru%2Fdoc.html%3Fid%3D198415


Due to the absence of foreig invasions, etnocide or long-term civil unrest - the old culture can still be found in the Finish demography. Here each region (shire/state) actually have their own genetical trenchmark. Although the king and/or nobility that made this demographic impact have disappeared the genetic impact still remains.

As Finland became subjected to the catholic culture and Swedish administration the old (heathen) culture of fertility disapeared - but due to the remaining "law of the eldest son", who was expeted to stay at his farm and "carry his fathers seed further, securing the family-line and evolving the culture of the forefathers" - "to make both land and family prosper". 

Finnish regional markers here and there
and here;

Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective

Balkan is a mosaic though. Serbs and Croats are sure similar to the northern Europeans. Slovans are closer to Bulgars, and thus Makedons and the northern Greeks.

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/abs/5200992a.html

Croats seem to be part of "Yugoslav Balkan", while Albanians and Romanians have more in common with both Italians, Greeks and Turks/Pesians - both in terms of genetics as in "preferred biosphere".

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml 


Biosphere...

To clearify things we may discripate between the arctic and tropic variations of the caucasians phenotype. South of the Alps and the Balkans we find the tropical hemisphere. Thus the Greek, the greek Macedonians, the Illyrians and the Italians wear a more strong pigmentation.

Defined by climate and biosphere the Armenians, Azeri and Georgians also belong to the (sub-) artical part of Caucasus. Today, though, the people of the area are obviously influenced by the Turks and Persians - who apparently have their ancestry in the south of the Caucasian montain-range.

Along with the present Italian, Greeks and Turks also the Persian seems to have a phenotype rather than a pimentation that shows their link to their respective northern neighbours. The relationship to their southern neighbours, though - such as the Africans, Indians and Asians - are shown by pigmentation rather than by phenotype.

Defined by phenotype AND pigmentation the Fenno-Ugrians obvously share their mesolitic  origin with the central- and eastern Eurasians.  During Paleoliticum these caucasians obviously shared ancestors with the rest of the Europeans.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175210,00.html









Edited by Boreasi - 02-Dec-2008 at 17:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 23:06
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Pingiun: really? I don't find any of them particularly Asian at all.

 
Yes. Particularly the blond male singer at the right. He has an "Asian" look. The blond girl also looks asiatic in some pictures.
 
Not that it matters, but at least in were I live, same facial features are quite revealing Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 05:45

Had always thought of Finno-Ugrics as indigenous peoples (among many other native tribes) to what we today call Russia.

http://www.faqs.org/minorities/USSR/Native-Peoples-of-the-North-and-Siberia.html

"Rus" (after the Finnic term for Swedes: "Ruotsi") being what the locals called the Viking merchants. The 'Rus' then founding the first Russian state centered on Kiev, in today's Ukrane.   Am I following the thread so far ?

Maybe the question therefore should be: "Are Russians Swedes" ?  Or was the founder population of "the great European process" called Russia; - a Swedish and Slavic a mixture ? A founder population of Swedes, Slavs and Western Finns ? (Remembering the dual origins of Finns and the fact that there is "a sharp genetic border between Eastern and Western Finns" in regards to Y-DNA).

The Northern and Eastern Finns being primarily Y-DNA Haplogroup N:  (N originating from East Asia)

As Aeon earlier pointed out, Haplogroup N:
Yakuts..........87%
Eskimos.........61%
Chukchi.........58%
Finns...........55%
Buryats.........52%
Tofalars........47%
Lithuanians.....47%
Lapps...........42%
Estonians.......37%
Maris...........33%
Latvians........32%
Nenets..........30%
Tuvans..........18%
Chuvash.........18%
Russians........14%
Ukrainians......11%
North Swedes.....8%
Gotlanders.......6%
Norwegians.......6%
Poles............4%
Germans..........3%
Armenians........3%
Slovakians.......3%
Danes............2%
Belarusians......2%
Turks............1%

The Western Finns being primarily Y-DNA I1a. An Indo-European haplogroup which came to the scene 2,000 years later. No ?

DNA testing, not only pointing out differences, but also revealing just how related people in the Arctic North are. The Dual Origins of Sami DNA (though Finno-Ugric DNA in Sami came through assimilation process). (Putting a more human face on otherwise a bit clinical data):

http://saamiblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/part-2-western-european-roots-of-saami.html

Aeon also in earlier posts talked about Turkic influence in Ukraine. Even though genetically Turkish people cannot be said to be related to Finno-Ugrics (?), still; - is there not a language connection between Manchu-Tungus and Finno-Ugric, or do the similarities come under Uralo-Altaic connection ? Would this connection change the idea of Ural mountains being the place origin of the Proto-FU speakers ?

Is Turan or the idea of Turania a dream of continuity of "the great Turkish process" Ukraine was influenced by ?

http://www.azerb.com/az-turan.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Yes. Particularly the blond male singer at the right. He has an "Asian" look. The blond girl also looks asiatic in some pictures.
 
Not that it matters, but at least in were I live, same facial features are quite revealing Wink

Well, I don't think anyone of them look Asian at all,  so I guess it's in the eyes of the beholder ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2008 at 01:20

Oops! My bad!  Confused  Rurik is said to be  Finno-Ugric Hg N

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

Just found it very difficult to imagine Finns or Karelians or Sami as Vikings, unless coming from Swedish background.

 http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/varangians.shtml

Do the modern day Russians, as the National Geographic magazine (in May 2000 article: "In Search of Vikings" ) pointed out ; - feel as Viking heirs ? - nostalgic for the Viking age ? - thus wanting  to know more about the  heroic Swedish/Viking/Scandinavian past ?


Edited by Inah - 04-Dec-2008 at 01:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2008 at 03:09
I found very funny the arguments based in frequencies of haplotypes. They mean nothing. It is better to see the spread of the clines over a geographical region.
In northern europe, the distribution of the blue eyes or blond hair are as revealing as the spread of an haplotype. They mean those genes have been shared among people living together during thousand of years.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 13:10
Ok, just for you Pinguin, Sámi artist Åsa Simma with her Native American husband Norman CharlesClown:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 13:37
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I found very funny the arguments based in frequencies of haplotypes. 
 

Agree. Some people here on the forum seem to think they are some kind of absolute truth. Until the technique has been used for a long time and made more secure and analysis methods have been developed, I see them only as an intersting tidbit. Maybe in 10-15 years they start becoming more reliable.
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