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Forum LockedFinno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 19:08
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

Really funny discussionLOL. Sarmat 12: You'd better confess Your Polishness at once!

 
 
Well, I really would love to, but unfortunatelyCry, I'm not.  LOL
 
May be the problem is that I don't have trouble speculating that ancient Russians had a huge ammount of Finnish blood. Why is it that bad? Big%20smile
 
Anyway, Russian have much more chances for being Finns than Poles being Sarmatians.
 
By the way Russians, also definetely have much more Sarmatian blood in them than Poles (if they have any).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 04:20
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

There are the scripts of Herodot. Nort of the schytas, sauromats and sarmats are mentioned some finn-ugrians. 
 
Does he call them Finno-Ugrians? Smile 
 
They were called yurkas (ob-ugrian: yugra)
 
Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

In a Gran Burenhult book (The first men or in the Stone-Age World there is a map about the language groups, the finno-ugrians had got almost the whole territ. of todays Russia, north from Middle-Ukraine.
 
The map is wrong.
 
Please write it to Dr. Peter Bellwood, Australian national university, Canberra. LOL
 
And : in the 9. Cent there were no slavic states east from Moravia. :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 08:12
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

 
You are really funny. I see you don't like that your ancestor might have been Finns.LOLLOLLOL
 
Why bring in personal considerations? We are discussing scientific matters, aren't we?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Your emotions, however, IMO are not equal to objective scentific facts.
 
I really don't know where you saw emotions. I am citing scientific arguments, you are not.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

You are still so biased against Ukrainians and now you claim that Poles have invented this theory.
 
Poles have invented it indeed. Ukranians just took it over.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

The funny thing is that I'm not  Pole.
 
Using the nickname Sarmat doesn't imply that I'm Pole.
 
Descendants of Sarmats live in Russian Federation but not in Poland.
 
I AM RUSSIAN  (And I'm proud of it)!!!!
 
I doubt it.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I read this theory in the supplement materials to one of the books of Professor Lev Gumilev in Russian, it was discussed by Russian hostorians and I didn't see any references to Poles at all.
 
Gumilev is not taken seriously by Russian historians. And if you think that Finnish influence on Russians was so great, please give your arguments.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 08:16
Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

 They were called yurkas (ob-ugrian: yugra) /QUOTE]
 
Herodotus mentions an obscure people called yiyirkai, but I doubt their name has anything to do with Ugra.
 
[QUOTE=Tar Szernd]  And : in the 9. Cent there were no slavic states east from Moravia. :-)
 
No, but there was north-east of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 08:21
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

May be the problem is that I don't have trouble speculating that ancient Russians had a huge ammount of Finnish blood.
 
Anyone may speculate about anything, but without hard evidence speculation remains speculations.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Why is it that bad? Big%20smile
 
Are we discussing what is bad and what is good or facts of history? I am once again asking for your evidence that Russians are Finns.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Anyway, Russian have much more chances for being Finns than Poles being Sarmatians.
 
We are not discussing chances, we are discussing reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 14:19

Уважаемый aeon, пожалуйста, не думай, что ты здесь "самый русский". Если тебе интересно, давай обсуждать эту тему без взаимных обвинений. По крайней мере, поляки или украинцы здесь не причем. Возможно польские историки и выдумали что нибудь подобное в 19м веке, Но мы здесь говорим не об этом, а о том насколько реальна теория о финно-угорском происхождении русских в принципе. Пожалуйста, выставляй здесь только факты. Когда ты меня обвиняешь в том, что я-поляк, ничего кроме смеха это во мне не вызывает. Если хочешь, почитай другие мои посты на этом форуме и ты удостоверишся в моей истинной национальной принадлежности.

Вот и все, ты, судя по всему, умный человек, вот и докажи мне все без лишних эмоций. А с реакционными поляками и украинцами мы можем "разобраться" в другом месте.  Big%20smile



Edited by Sarmat12 - 12-Jun-2007 at 14:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 14:41
Plz. lets use English.
Pazhalsta, budyim govarity pa angliski, patamushta eta intiresny topic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 15:07
Originally posted by axeman axeman wrote:

Plz. lets use English.
Pazhalsta, budyim govarity pa angliski, patamushta eta intiresny topic.

 
LOL
 
Sure, I just wanted to prove to aeon, that I'm not a Pole. Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 17:15
It seems Dyakov culture is supposed to be Finnish (atleast this is what wiki says). I do not see any convincing Slavonic etymology of the name Moskva.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 03:31
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

It seems Dyakov culture is supposed to be Finnish (atleast this is what wiki says).
 
Does wiki explain why the hydronymy in the territory of this "Finnish culture" is Baltic?
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

I do not see any convincing Slavonic etymology of the name Moskva.
 
Nobody said Moskva is of Slavic origin. It is most probably of Baltic. Are you a conoisseur of Baltic and Finnic linguistics to determine what etymology is convincing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 03:32
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Уважаемый aeon, пожалуйста, не думай, что ты здесь "самый русский". Если тебе интересно, давай обсуждать эту тему без взаимных обвинений. По крайней мере, поляки или украинцы здесь не причем. Возможно польские историки и выдумали что нибудь подобное в 19м веке, Но мы здесь говорим не об этом, а о том насколько реальна теория о финно-угорском происхождении русских в принципе. Пожалуйста, выставляй здесь только факты. Когда ты меня обвиняешь в том, что я-поляк, ничего кроме смеха это во мне не вызывает. Если хочешь, почитай другие мои посты на этом форуме и ты удостоверишся в моей истинной национальной принадлежности.

Вот и все, ты, судя по всему, умный человек, вот и докажи мне все без лишних эмоций. А с реакционными поляками и украинцами мы можем "разобраться" в другом месте.  Big%20smile

 
I am waiting for your arguments...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 06:13
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

 
Are you a conoisseur of Baltic and Finnic linguistics to determine what etymology is convincing?
 
Connoisseur enough to know that connoisseur is written with double 'n' Wink
 
No, I know neither Baltic languages nor Finish ones. I just read what Russian linguists say about Moskva's etymology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 06:29
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

Please describe your criteria of determining Finnish influence. The most obvious is the genetic marker N. Goging by it, 15% of Russians, 10% of Ukrainians, 10% of Belarusians and 5% of Poles are Finns.
 
Genetical research cannot identify exactly how many percent of this or that nationality is present in some particular modern nation. There are some factors that affect this calculations. For example imbreeding.  As it happened in close Finish societies.
 
Quote
Ironically, genetic research now reveals that Slavs are newcomers in Poland from somewhere around the place where Russia, Ukraine and Belarus meet. So, now instead of the question "Are Russians Slavic" we may ask "Are Poles Slavic?" Smile
 
Yes, but topic was about Moscow. If this idea is true then Slavs came to Moscow from "somewhere around the place where Russia, Ukraine and Belarus meet".  
Quote  
I do not call them blatantly Turkish. Turkic influence on Ukraine was huge, it's an historical fact. Ukraine was still in the end of the 17th century an ulus of the Crimean horde and a wilayet of Turkey.
Turkic influence was huge everywhere around the Pontus. In Kievan Rus as well.


Edited by Anton - 13-Jun-2007 at 06:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 07:58
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Genetical research cannot identify exactly how many percent of this or that nationality is present in some particular modern nation.
 
What can, then? Propose better criteria.
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Turkic influence was huge everywhere around the Pontus. In Kievan Rus as well.
 
Kievan Rus never existed. The term was invented by Soviet historians. Of all Russian lands, Turkic influence was huge only in Ukraine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 08:43

OK, the Kievskoe Knijazhestvo was influenced by Turkic tribes. Or you do not consider Kievskoe Knjazhestvo as Rus' i.e. Russian land?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 08:46
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

What can, then? Propose better criteria.
 
I do not say it is bad criteria. What I mean is that 5% of some marker characteristic for example for Finnish tribes in Russian population, does not mean that modern Russian nation consisted of 5% Finns. It can be more, can be less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Уважаемый aeon, пожалуйста, не думай, что ты здесь "самый русский". Если тебе интересно, давай обсуждать эту тему без взаимных обвинений. По крайней мере, поляки или украинцы здесь не причем. Возможно польские историки и выдумали что нибудь подобное в 19м веке, Но мы здесь говорим не об этом, а о том насколько реальна теория о финно-угорском происхождении русских в принципе. Пожалуйста, выставляй здесь только факты. Когда ты меня обвиняешь в том, что я-поляк, ничего кроме смеха это во мне не вызывает. Если хочешь, почитай другие мои посты на этом форуме и ты удостоверишся в моей истинной национальной принадлежности.

Вот и все, ты, судя по всему, умный человек, вот и докажи мне все без лишних эмоций. А с реакционными поляками и украинцами мы можем "разобраться" в другом месте.  Big%20smile

 
I am waiting for your arguments...
 
I don't claim that I'm an expert in this topic.
 
I have posted this topic in order to have more insights from your guys because I don't have any totally convincing arguments or facts by myself.
 
I was waiting for arguments from you aeaon, but the way you presented them, makes them too unreliable for me to accept.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 13-Jun-2007 at 20:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O-jah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 07:20
Hello everybody!

Quote Please describe your criteria of determining Finnish influence. The most obvious is the genetic marker N. Goging by it, 15% of Russians, 10% of Ukrainians, 10% of Belarusians and 5% of Poles are Finns.


Is that taken from the modern population of Finland? If it is taken form the modern Finnish population then there is a problem, because it doesn't say so much about the genetics of the finno-ugric populations of the Northern Russia. Keep in mind that the modern population of Finland is a mix of migrations to this area from west, south and east in time of thousands of years. So the genetics of modern Finns are different from the genetics of the Finnic tribes in Northern Russia in the first millenium.

---------------------------

I'm not specialiced in Russian history, but i think it is just natural that the slavs mixed with the finno-ugrics. Finno-ugric and finnic tribes habitated the northern Russia and the Volga region, so when the Slavs came to the area it is natural that they mixed with the locals and the locals slowly adobted the slavic laguage. For example i think i've read somewhere that in early Novgorod most of the population where Finnic people, and there was a Slavic upperclass. And i read that the Old Ladoga (and maybe even Novgorod) was first a city/village of Finnic tribes (Carelians) and then later the Scandinavians (Vikings/Varjagians) and Slavs came to the trading cities. (There has been found even a birch bark letter that dates 13th century in Finnic, Carelian, language from Novogorod. Well it doesn't prove much, but anyway. 13th century birch bark letter)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 12:26
Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

Hello everybody!

Quote Please describe your criteria of determining Finnish influence. The most obvious is the genetic marker N. Goging by it, 15% of Russians, 10% of Ukrainians, 10% of Belarusians and 5% of Poles are Finns.


Is that taken from the modern population of Finland? If it is taken form the modern Finnish population then there is a problem, because it doesn't say so much about the genetics of the finno-ugric populations of the Northern Russia. Keep in mind that the modern population of Finland is a mix of migrations to this area from west, south and east in time of thousands of years. So the genetics of modern Finns are different from the genetics of the Finnic tribes in Northern Russia in the first millenium.

---------------------------

I'm not specialiced in Russian history, but i think it is just natural that the slavs mixed with the finno-ugrics. Finno-ugric and finnic tribes habitated the northern Russia and the Volga region, so when the Slavs came to the area it is natural that they mixed with the locals and the locals slowly adobted the slavic laguage. For example i think i've read somewhere that in early Novgorod most of the population where Finnic people, and there was a Slavic upperclass. And i read that the Old Ladoga (and maybe even Novgorod) was first a city/village of Finnic tribes (Carelians) and then later the Scandinavians (Vikings/Varjagians) and Slavs came to the trading cities. (There has been found even a birch bark letter that dates 13th century in Finnic, Carelian, language from Novogorod. Well it doesn't prove much, but anyway. 13th century birch bark letter)

O-jah
 
Thank you O-jah.  This is indeed a very interesting discussion. I, personally, see that traditional Russian (Muscovite) material culture is actually much closer to the Finno-Ugrian (those Finno-Ugrians who inhabit modern Russia), than to Ukrainian, Belorussian and traditional Slavic material culture in general. I am not an expert in ehtnography, so it is ONLY MY HUMBLE OBSERVATION. However, I found a lot of articles, mainly in Russian, and published mainly by Russian Finno-Ugrians whish support this view. The number of sources in English for this topic is unfortunately too small.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 04:31
Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

 
Hello everybody!

Quote Please describe your criteria of determining Finnish influence. The most obvious is the genetic marker N. Goging by it, 15% of Russians, 10% of Ukrainians, 10% of Belarusians and 5% of Poles are Finns.


Is that taken from the modern population of Finland? If it is taken form the modern Finnish population then there is a problem, because it doesn't say so much about the genetics of the finno-ugric populations of the Northern Russia. Keep in mind that the modern population of Finland is a mix of migrations to this area from west, south and east in time of thousands of years. So the genetics of modern Finns are different from the genetics of the Finnic tribes in Northern Russia in the first millenium.
 
Y-hg N is generally recognized as a sign of Finnic ancestry. All modern Finnic nations have high percentage of N. It is obvious that they had it 1,000 years ago as well. 

Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

I'm not specialiced in Russian history, but i think it is just natural that the slavs mixed with the finno-ugrics. Finno-ugric and finnic tribes habitated the northern Russia and the Volga region, so when the Slavs came to the area it is natural that they mixed with the locals and the locals slowly adobted the slavic laguage.
 
Original FUs were migrants in East Europe from East Asia. The modern FUs are themselves mostly indigenous East European people with only various degrees of FU admixture.
 
Originally posted by O-jah O-jah wrote:

For example i think i've read somewhere that in early Novgorod most of the population where Finnic people, and there was a Slavic upperclass. And i read that the Old Ladoga (and maybe even Novgorod) was first a city/village of Finnic tribes (Carelians) and then later the Scandinavians (Vikings/Varjagians) and Slavs came to the trading cities. (There has been found even a birch bark letter that dates 13th century in Finnic, Carelian, language from Novogorod. Well it doesn't prove much, but anyway. 13th century birch bark letter) O-jah
 
It does prove much. 1 document in Finnic per thousands of documents in Russian proves that the Finnic influence was minuscule.
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