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Forum LockedFinno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

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    Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 16:32
I would like to hear some opinions from the people of Finnish backgound. There are some theories which say that Russian nation ethnical composition is 75-80% Finnish. They say Ancient territory of Russia was mainly inhabited by Finns. Later these Finns just adopted Slavic language but their ethinic composition remained unchanged.
 
This theory is also very popular among some modern nationalistic Ukranian historians. They say that Moscovia did not have any connection to the Ancient Kiev Rus. According to them, Moscovites just were Finns, with Kievan Slavs rulers who adopted Slavic language, thus modern Russia does not have any claim for the Ancient Rus heritage.
 
Some of them even call Russia "Great Finland", emphasizing their Ukranian Indo-European ("Aryan") origins compare to the "inferior Finnish Moscovites."
 
Everybody is invited to the discussion, particularly Finns.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 02-Jun-2007 at 16:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 21:06
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

This theory is also very popular among some modern nationalistic Ukranian historians. They say that Moscovia did not have any connection to the Ancient Kiev Rus. According to them, Moscovites just were Finns, with Kievan Slavs rulers who adopted Slavic language, thus modern Russia does not have any claim for the Ancient Rus heritage.
 
Tell those Ukranian historians that Knjaginja Olga was from Finnish Pskov. You can also tell them that they are Turkic Khazars who adopted Slavonic language, whereas real, "pure" Slavs are Moskoviti and Novgorotsi Confused Wink 
This is about herritage.
About the theory -- it is partially true I suppose, but I never heard about Finish tribes living around Moscow. But in the north, Slavs and Finns probably were mixed very much indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 22:49
Actually, the word Moscow is of Finno-Ugric origin and there was a Finnish tribe Moksa, living in that area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 22:52
Well, yes, word Moskva doesn't sound as slavonic to me. Neither do Kiev (Kuyaba). But I am not linguist though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 23:07
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Well, yes, word Moskva doesn't sound as slavonic to me. Neither do Kiev (Kuyaba). But I am not linguist though.
 
Kiev sounds more Slavic.
 
Kiev means "of Kii" or "Kii's" in Russian. Kii, Shek and Horiv were legendary founders of Kiev.
 
So, basically, Kiev is smth like the place of Kii.
 
Kuyaba is just an Arabization of the word Kiev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 09:58
The fact of mixing of eastern slavs (today russian, belorussians & ukranians) with local finno-ugoric(not only finns) tribes during the residing of Northern/Eastern Europe territory  is well known and was discussed by a lot of russians (Solovyov,Kluchevsky,etc) and other historians. Of course it's not the true that Russians are 70-80% finno-ugoric, but for some part of Russians (especially in the North/-East) 20% could be realistic.
This mixing could be historically devided for 2 parts:
1. During ancient times - before Mongol invasion. Generally this mixing happened across the water way from "Baltic sea to Greece". The best example was Novgorod city, where ~ 40% of population were finns (chud' - in old russian) at those times.
2. After the Mongol invasion(but the process was started sometime before), when eastern slavs mass migrated from the terrirtoris around Kiev (those days south-eastern Rus'). One part of them migrated to the west another to the north-east. The part of them that migrated to the north-estern direction met there a lot of local finno-ugoric tribes and because of bigger number and culture level (I mean writings, science, christianity,etc.) adopt people from these neighbour tribes (but of course not all of them).  Russians historians and scientists see the proof of it in the linquistics changes(often use of "a" insted of previos "o",etc), phisiological changes (more dark hairs and swarthy skeen,etc.) and of course geographical names (e.g. Moskva: "-va" mean somth. like "water" in old Finnish ).
But no doubts that Finno-Ugoric people made a big influence to the Russians and the same Russians to Finno-Ugoric people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 11:57

Good post!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 12:06
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

The fact of mixing of eastern slavs (today russian, belorussians & ukranians) with local finno-ugoric(not only finns) tribes during the residing of Northern/Eastern Europe territory  is well known and was discussed by a lot of russians (Solovyov,Kluchevsky,etc) and other historians. Of course it's not the true that Russians are 70-80% finno-ugoric, but for some part of Russians (especially in the North/-East) 20% could be realistic.
This mixing could be historically devided for 2 parts:
1. During ancient times - before Mongol invasion. Generally this mixing happened across the water way from "Baltic sea to Greece". The best example was Novgorod city, where ~ 40% of population were finns (chud' - in old russian) at those times.
2. After the Mongol invasion(but the process was started sometime before), when eastern slavs mass migrated from the terrirtoris around Kiev (those days south-eastern Rus'). One part of them migrated to the west another to the north-east. The part of them that migrated to the north-estern direction met there a lot of local finno-ugoric tribes and because of bigger number and culture level (I mean writings, science, christianity,etc.) adopt people from these neighbour tribes (but of course not all of them).  Russians historians and scientists see the proof of it in the linquistics changes(often use of "a" insted of previos "o",etc), phisiological changes (more dark hairs and swarthy skeen,etc.) and of course geographical names (e.g. Moskva: "-va" mean somth. like "water" in old Finnish ).
But no doubts that Finno-Ugoric people made a big influence to the Russians and the same Russians to Finno-Ugoric people.
 
Yes, thank you very much for this beautiful post. However, this seems to be more or less the traditional version of Russian history.
 
I meant, that the "new scholars" like to say that there was not 40% but up to 80% of Finnish blood in the forming Russian nation.
 
Again, it would be interesting to hear from a person of Finnish background whether there are some studies on this in Finno-Ugrian countries (Finland, Hungary, Estonia) and whether the perception of Russia as "the Great Finland" might change somehow popular views of Russia in these countries.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Jun-2007 at 12:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 04:50
There are the scripts of Herodot. Nort of the schytas, sauromats and sarmats are mentioned some finn-ugrians.  In a Gran Burenhult book (The first men or in the Stone-Age World there is a map about the language groups, the finno-ugrians had got almost the whole territ. of todays Russia, north from Middle-Ukraine.
 
There was a linguistic dispute in the 1800 in hungary (the "finnish-turcic war" :-) ; and in that time it seemed that the hungarian l. has common roots with the finnish and it was born somewhere (on the west or on the east side of the) Ural. The proto finn groups moved from this place to the west, some ugrians stayed, some of them and f.e. the samoyeds to the east, the proto-hungarians to the south.
 
Some linguistic profs and some historians think that the hungarian l. is so unique today, and it was sooo :-) unique 1000-1500 years before, that it's a wonder how it could survive the centuries betwwen slavic, iranic and turcic speaker "nations" in the europeans steppe and probably in west-Siberia . But maybe it wasn't so unique in these terrytories.


Edited by Tar Szernd - 08-Jun-2007 at 04:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I would like to hear some opinions from the people of Finnish backgound.
 
I am not a person of Finnish background, unless you count Russians as Finnish by default. Smile
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

There are some theories which say that Russian nation ethnical composition is 75-80% Finnish.
 
Russians have 15% of the Finnic haplogroup N. Ukranians and Belarusians have 10%.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

They say Ancient territory of Russia was mainly inhabited by Finns. Later these Finns just adopted Slavic language but their ethinic composition remained unchanged.
 
The ancient territory of Russia was inhabited by Nordid Indo-Europeans from the South Russian ice refugium. In the early neolithic period Uralics arrived from the East. Then some Indo-Europeans in Russia adopted Finno-Ugrian language but their ethnic composition remained unchanged.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

This theory is also very popular among some modern nationalistic Ukranian historians. They say that Moscovia did not have any connection to the Ancient Kiev Rus.
 
Moscow was part of the Russian State already in the 9th century, when Kiev was still ruled by Judeo-Khazars.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

According to them, Moscovites just were Finns, with Kievan Slavs rulers who adopted Slavic language, thus modern Russia does not have any claim for the Ancient Rus heritage.
 
Russian State arose in the north around Ladoga and Novgorod. Then it conquered Kiev and Ukraine which had been ruled by Judeo-Khazars.
 
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Some of them even call Russia "Great Finland", emphasizing their Ukranian Indo-European ("Aryan") origins compare to the "inferior Finnish Moscovites."
 
Do you call such people Aryan? We call them Turkish...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 05:26
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Actually, the word Moscow is of Finno-Ugric origin
 
Its exact origin is not known. Hydronyms ending in -va are common in Finnic, Baltic and Slavic languages. But since Moscow is in the area of Balto-Slavic hydronymy, its name is most probably Balto-Slavic.
 
In this map a shows the border between Balto-Slavic and Finnic hydronyms.
 
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

and there was a Finnish tribe Moksa, living in that area.
 
No, Moksha was a Mordovian tribe living far to south-east of Moscow. Plus, the names Moskva and Moksha have nothing in common.
 
Until the 9th century AD Moscow was the center of the Balto-Slavic Dyakovo culture.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 05:55
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Kiev sounds more Slavic.
 
There is no suffix -va in Polish, right? In Russian there are lots of words with this suffix like bitva, britva, etc.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Kiev means "of Kii" or "Kii's" in Russian. Kii, Shek and Horiv were legendary founders of Kiev.
 
And why does Horiv have the name of the Near Eastern mountain Horeb?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

So, basically, Kiev is smth like the place of Kii.
 
Kuyaba is just an Arabization of the word Kiev
 
Historians believe that the name of Kiev came from the name of the Khazar wezir Kuya who built fortress there. The original form was Kuyyawa, Kiev is its Slavicization. And another name of Kiev, Sambat, is definitely of Turkic origin ("High Fortress").
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 06:03
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

The fact of mixing of eastern slavs (today russian, belorussians & ukranians) with local finno-ugoric(not only finns) tribes during the residing of Northern/Eastern Europe territory  is well known and was discussed by a lot of russians (Solovyov,Kluchevsky,etc) and other historians. Of course it's not the true that Russians are 70-80% finno-ugoric, but for some part of Russians (especially in the North/-East) 20% could be realistic.
This mixing could be historically devided for 2 parts:
1. During ancient times - before Mongol invasion. Generally this mixing happened across the water way from "Baltic sea to Greece". The best example was Novgorod city, where ~ 40% of population were finns (chud' - in old russian) at those times.
 
Where did you get that fantastic figure from?
 
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

2. After the Mongol invasion(but the process was started sometime before), when eastern slavs mass migrated from the terrirtoris around Kiev (those days south-eastern Rus'). One part of them migrated to the west another to the north-east. The part of them that migrated to the north-estern direction met there a lot of local finno-ugoric tribes and because of bigger number and culture level (I mean writings, science, christianity,etc.) adopt people from these neighbour tribes (but of course not all of them). 
 
There are no traces of mass migration from Ukraine to Russia in those days.
 
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

Russians historians and scientists see the proof of it in the linquistics changes(often use of "a" insted of previos "o",etc),
 
So, why Russians in South say a, while Russians in Finno-Ugrian North say o?  Smile
 
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

phisiological changes (more dark hairs and swarthy skeen,etc.)
 
BS. Finno-Ugrians in Russia have lighter skin and hair than Ukrainians.
 
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

and of course geographical names (e.g. Moskva: "-va" mean somth. like "water" in old Finnish ).
 
This is an Indo-European word.
 
Originally posted by John Lenon John Lenon wrote:

But no doubts that Finno-Ugoric people made a big influence to the Russians and the same Russians to Finno-Ugoric people.
 
Finno-Ugrians made very little if any influence on Russians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 06:05
Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

There are the scripts of Herodot. Nort of the schytas, sauromats and sarmats are mentioned some finn-ugrians. 
 
Does he call them Finno-Ugrians? Smile
 
Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

In a Gran Burenhult book (The first men or in the Stone-Age World there is a map about the language groups, the finno-ugrians had got almost the whole territ. of todays Russia, north from Middle-Ukraine.
 
The map is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 11:33
TO aeon
 
I am not counting Russian as Finns by default. Relax Big%20smile. This is just a discussion.
 
But I think it's also not correct to call Ukrainians Turkish like you do. Russian cossacks uniform was copied from the Chirkassian one, but this does not make them Chirkassian, right?
 
You have interesting points. Thank you about pointing to the Turkic origins of Kuyava, I didn't now about that.
 
Nevertheless, most theories about the origins of the word Moskva point of the Finno-Ugrian sources (look through the internet).
 
I think John Lennon is right when he says that in the North of Russia a percentage of Finns was greater. Even the primary chronicle (Povest vremennyh let) talks that the tribes who called Riurik included: Chud, Meria and Vesia (I believe these are Finnish tribes).
 
Overall, let's try to be objective. Nobody is sure here that Russians are Finns. We are just discussing a new theory.
 
But please, do not show your bias towards Ukrainians. If their "new historians" are not correct, let's prove it objectively but not just blatantly call them "Turkish" in response.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 09-Jun-2007 at 13:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 12:50
Until the 9th century AD Moscow was the center of the Balto-Slavic Dyakovo culture.
 
Looks like from this map Dubna was the center of Dyakovo culture as well. Smile 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 13:18
To aeon
 
And BTW, most people here wouldn't be able to read in Russian language, so please use more English language sources.
 
THKS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:07
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

TO aeon
 
I am not counting Russian as Finns by default. Relax Big%20smile. This is just a discussion.
 
But I think it's also not correct to call Ukrainians Turkish like you do. Russian cossacks uniform was copied from the Chirkassian one, but this does not make them Chirkassian, right?
 
Only Kuban and Terek cossacks. Still Russians cossacks look very different from Circassians, while it is almost impossible to tell a Ukrainian cossack from a Turk.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

You have interesting points. Thank you about pointing to the Turkic origins of Kuyava, I didn't now about that.
 
Nevertheless, most theories about the origins of the word Moskva point of the Finno-Ugrian sources (look through the internet).
 
So what? Hydronyms ending in -va are usual in Baltic and Slavic languages, and Moscow is in the area of Baltic hydronymy, so its Finnish origin is much less probable than Balto-Slavic. And even if it were Finnic, what would it change? Wisla is not a Slavic name either, are you Poles bothered by that?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I think John Lennon is right when he says that in the North of Russia a percentage of Finns was greater. Even the primary chronicle (Povest vremennyh let) talks that the tribes who called Riurik included: Chud, Meria and Vesia (I believe these are Finnish tribes).
 
Please describe your criteria of determining Finnish influence. The most obvious is the genetic marker N. Goging by it, 15% of Russians, 10% of Ukrainians, 10% of Belarusians and 5% of Poles are Finns.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Overall, let's try to be objective. Nobody is sure here that Russians are Finns. We are just discussing a new theory.
 
This is anything but a new theory. It was invented in the 19th century by the disgruntled Poles after the two Polish uprisings were suppressed by Russians. It was taken over from the Poles by the Ukrainians in the early 20th century when the Ukranian nationalistic history was born.
Ironically, genetic research now reveals that Slavs are newcomers in Poland from somewhere around the place where Russia, Ukraine and Belarus meet. So, now instead of the question "Are Russians Slavic" we may ask "Are Poles Slavic?" Smile
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

But please, do not show your bias towards Ukrainians. If their "new historians" are not correct, let's prove it objectively but not just blatantly call them "Turkish" in response. 
 
I do not call them blatantly Turkish. Turkic influence on Ukraine was huge, it's an historical fact. Ukraine was still in the end of the 17th century an ulus of the Crimean horde and a wilayet of Turkey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:39
Originally posted by aeon aeon wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

TO aeon
 
I am not counting Russian as Finns by default. Relax Big%20smile. This is just a discussion.
 
But I think it's also not correct to call Ukrainians Turkish like you do. Russian cossacks uniform was copied from the Chirkassian one, but this does not make them Chirkassian, right?
 
Only Kuban and Terek cossacks. Still Russians cossacks look very different from Circassians, while it is almost impossible to tell a Ukrainian cossack from a Turk.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

You have interesting points. Thank you about pointing to the Turkic origins of Kuyava, I didn't now about that.
 
Nevertheless, most theories about the origins of the word Moskva point of the Finno-Ugrian sources (look through the internet).
 
So what? Hydronyms ending in -va are usual in Baltic and Slavic languages, and Moscow is in the area of Baltic hydronymy, so its Finnish origin is much less probable than Balto-Slavic. And even if it were Finnic, what would it change? Wisla is not a Slavic name either, are you Poles bothered by that?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I think John Lennon is right when he says that in the North of Russia a percentage of Finns was greater. Even the primary chronicle (Povest vremennyh let) talks that the tribes who called Riurik included: Chud, Meria and Vesia (I believe these are Finnish tribes).
 
Please describe your criteria of determining Finnish influence. The most obvious is the genetic marker N. Goging by it, 15% of Russians, 10% of Ukrainians, 10% of Belarusians and 5% of Poles are Finns.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Overall, let's try to be objective. Nobody is sure here that Russians are Finns. We are just discussing a new theory.
 
This is anything but a new theory. It was invented in the 19th century by the disgruntled Poles after the two Polish uprisings were suppressed by Russians. It was taken over from the Poles by the Ukrainians in the early 20th century when the Ukranian nationalistic history was born.
Ironically, genetic research now reveals that Slavs are newcomers in Poland from somewhere around the place where Russia, Ukraine and Belarus meet. So, now instead of the question "Are Russians Slavic" we may ask "Are Poles Slavic?" Smile
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

But please, do not show your bias towards Ukrainians. If their "new historians" are not correct, let's prove it objectively but not just blatantly call them "Turkish" in response. 
 
I do not call them blatantly Turkish. Turkic influence on Ukraine was huge, it's an historical fact. Ukraine was still in the end of the 17th century an ulus of the Crimean horde and a wilayet of Turkey.
 
 
You are really funny. I see you don't like that your ancestor might have been Finns.LOLLOLLOL
 
Your emotions, however, IMO are not equal to objective scentific facts.
 
You are still so biased against Ukrainians and now you claim that Poles have invented this theory.
 
The funny thing is that I'm not  Pole.
 
Using the nickname Sarmat doesn't imply that I'm Pole.
 
Descendants of Sarmats live in Russian Federation but not in Poland.
 
I AM RUSSIAN  (And I'm proud of it)!!!!
 
I read this theory in the supplement materials to one of the books of Professor Lev Gumilev in Russian, it was discussed by Russian hostorians and I didn't see any references to Poles at all.
 
Don't put too many political stuff here. You can discuss non Slavic origins of Poles in other forums.
 
I bet Polish guys here will like it a lot.LOL
 
УДАЧИ !
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Jun-2007 at 12:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 18:24

Really funny discussionLOL. Sarmat 12: You'd better confess Your Polishness at once!

Personally I think Russians and Polish are Slavs. Theories about Russians being Finns I find as true as polish being Sarmatians.
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