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Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
Housecarl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 22:03
With all respect mygger, those theories are decade old and the more recent research has pretty much come to completely different conclusion. Pretty much all Europeans came from West Asia after the last Ice Age. Finns and Estonians hardly are any different, they are part of the larger North European genepool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 22:25
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:

With all respect mygger, those theories are decade old and the more recent research has pretty much come to completely different conclusion. Pretty much all Europeans came from West Asia after the last Ice Age. Finns and Estonians hardly are any different, they are part of the larger North European genepool.
 
Chalk it up to Internet War Games and the popularity of some of the fluff appearing on the History International channel, Torsten. In a sense it is the persistence of Romanticism in the popularization of history and is quite akin to the love of tired 19th century ideologies among today's overeducated and underemployed youth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mygger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 11:33
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:

With all respect mygger, those theories are decade old and the more recent research has pretty much come to completely different conclusion. Pretty much all Europeans came from West Asia after the last Ice Age. Finns and Estonians hardly are any different, they are part of the larger North European genepool.

It's very interesting for me. Can you give some links or references of those recent research?
I thought most of Europeans migrated from the Eastern European Plain refugium area after the last Ice Age.
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Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
Housecarl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 14:13
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


I'm interested in the topic - I've never seen a good calculation. What you are saying about Finland was also true for many Swedish provinces. The draft was quite uneven: some areas didn't provide any troops at all, but payed extra taxes instead. All the Norrland provinces - of which Österbotten/Pohjanmaa was also a part - were as heavily drafted as those of Finland, and they were as sparsely populated. Villages were depopulated during the 30 Years War as well as during the GNW. A fair comparison should be made on the provincial level. Take the outbreak of the Great Northern War as an example. Norrland, including Österbotten, had a population of around 110,000 in 1700, but provided four large infantry regiments and a small cavalry unit, which is on par with Finland.


I found interesting chart representing the population development in Finland and in Sweden. There is major disparity. Thirty years war had dramatic effect on Finland. Swedens population  nearly doubled to 18th century while Finlands arose only little. 18th century shows the effct of Greater Wrath, when Finnish troops were fighting in Russia and also in Poland. While the country was without any defence Russians easily occupied all of the country. This had very devastating effect on Finlands population. It actually dropped from 1700 to 1750, while Swedens population rose to new height. 



Data from: Jouko Vahtola, Suomen historia jääkaudesta Euroopan Unioniin (ISBN: 9789511173977). Only available in Finnish I'm afraid. Jouko Vahtola is professor of Scandinavian History in Oulu University.
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Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 14:20
Originally posted by mygger mygger wrote:


It's very interesting for me. Can you give some links or references of those recent research?


Sorry, my informatoin is from multiple sources. I can not point out just one. I recommend  Tuuli Lappalainen et al for starters.

Human genetic variation in the Baltic Sea region: Features of population history and natural selection 2009


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I thought most of Europeans migrated from the Eastern European Plain refugium area after the last Ice Age.


They had to come to East Europe somewhere. East Europe is just part of the route.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fennica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 08:39
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:


Pähkinälinna/Nöteborg treaty was made 1323. Korela was allready part of Novgorod back then
Well, the Swedish "crusades" were made to halt Orthodox expansion in the North, so that seems viable.
Problems are the scarce written evidence, we simply have very little real information on the Karelian fiefdoms.
For me personally, information which places Karelians so far up and West was all new.(next logical question is why, for trade-routes were mainly down South)
Karelian heartlands around Lake-Laatokka(Ladoga) were the fertile and had the hill-fort systems in place, so expansion of Karelians is an intresting question. I really have not looked into that matter, or my kinship, more closely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fennica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 08:48
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:


Siberian ? Siberia starts east of Ural mountains. That is 3.000 km's east of Finland. Finno-Ugric languages are tought to originate in Central Russia 4000 - 6000 years ago, west of Ural mountains anyway. Language ofcource doesnt equate with genes and should be handled separately.
Finno kinships, several tribes, lived West of Urals-East of the Baltics. Language was near identical with all the tribes in the area until the Slav expansion.
-I suspect that those who taunt Finns/Finnos as Mongols still view the studies of old, when historians relied on language studies instead of genetic studies.


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Sarmat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 16:19
I, actually, can't see how can linguistic studies supply any definite evidence that Finns are related to Mongols.
 
Altaic language macro-family hypo is still just a hypo that has been undergoing a lot of constructive criticism recently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 17:39
 
Though,it's untrue that Finns had Mongoloid origin but the little " Asiatic  admix " for some families ( from centuries past ) is there whether one admits or not.
 
Again,every racial or ethnic population has some " foreign " admix more or less.
 
 
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Torsten Stålhandske View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:06
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Though,it's untrue that Finns had Mongoloid origin but the little " Asiatic  admix " for some families ( from centuries past ) is there whether one admits or not.
 
Again,every racial or ethnic population has some " foreign " admix more or less.
 


There are some "Asiatic genes" in Finns for sure. Like there is pretty much on every North European population. I referred to Tuuli Lappalainen et al 2009. Finns have about 5% more deviation to East Asia than UK. UK has some deviation towards East Asia and towards Africa. Finns have no deviation towards Africa.

That deviation however is not defining Finnish population. Other aspects are. Finns are infact less mixed than most of European populations. Finns have received very little additional genetics from elsewhere and are mostly decended from small coastal populations, living 1000 years ago. Finns are infact an genetic isolate. You have much more genetic variation and admixture in any other population in Europe than in Finns. There are some exceptions naturally, like Sardinians, Icelanders and Basques.
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