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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2009 at 23:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Yes, but that doesn't mean that Finns should be happy with that.

Should we raise this question with the Saami? After all, since 1917, Helsinki has not recalled its own travails prior to 1863.
 
Of course, you can start a thread about Saami, but this one is about Finns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 14:12
Study about biological affinities of Finns is also available online:

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf

"The Origin of the Baltic-Finns from the
Physical Anthropological Point of View"

There are plenty of charts, including other people too. Not only Finns.

Closest biological "relatives" to Finns are Swedes and Russians. While most modern European populations have mishmash distribution of Y-chromosomal haplogroups (take Sweden for example; R1b 25%, R1a 24%, I1 40%, N1c 10%), Finns basically have only 2, N1c 60%, I1 40%. Northwest Russians have also plenty of N1c and Sweden I1. Finns are exactly what one would assume from geographical point of view. I dont think it would be correct to label Finns  as half Swede, half Russian. These haplogroups and biological affinities go way more back in time than our modern ethnicities.


Edited by Torsten Stålhandske - 11-May-2009 at 14:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 14:40
I wouldn't say Finns are half Russians. Perhaps, it would be more correct to say "Russians are half Finns."
 
For a more detailed discussion please join here.
 
Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 14:43
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:



Closest biological "relatives" to Finns are Swedes and Russians. While most modern European populations have mishmash distribution of Y-chromosomal haplogroups (take Sweden for example; R1b 25%, R1a 24%, I1 40%, N1c 10%), Finns basically have only 2, N1c 60%, I1 40%. Northwest Russians have also plenty of N1c and Sweden I1..
 
 

 
 
Not ethnic Russians ( unless the ones have Fiino-Ugrian origin ),former Soviet ethnic groups Estonians & Ingrians & Karelians,right ?!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 14:50
Sarmat observed in response to the below:
Should we raise this question with the Saami? After all, since 1917, Helsinki has not recalled its own travails prior to 1863.
 
"Of course, you can start a thread about Saami, but this one is about Finns."
 
Recall that the commentary had turned to bewailing what the nasty Swedes and Russians had done to the Finns with regard to language and culture? I posed a very valid rhetorical question on that tendency.Wink One can not belabour as unique what was long standard with the national and imperial ethos within the context of modern European history. Integrate or be marginalized as practiced by others on the Finns was the identical method adopted by the Finns towards the Saami. Admittedly the thread originated with Finnish origins; however it had long strayed onto this peripheral issue. There is hardly a controversy on the cultural and linguisitc roots of the Finn--their ties to the Magyar--and one finds that the aside on Mongol (rather than Hunnish ties) is tenuous at best. To argue the Finns as victims rather than committed nationalists born of 19th century Romanticism is a stretch. It fractures the Baltic experience since 1800 and totally ignores the role of the ruling classes of that region.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 14:54
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Not ethnic Russians ( unless the ones have Fiino-Ugrian origin ),former Soviet ethnic groups Estonians & Ingrians & Karelians,right ?! 


Ethnic Russians from Northwest Russia have plenty of haplogroup N1c. N1c represents pre-slavic people of the region (whom were Baltic Finns). It's most concentrated in the region that once was Republic of Novgorod. Russian scientists published study 2008 which found out that modern Russians have dual roots, Slavo-Finnic. That doesnt mean that Russians are half Finnish, rather that modern Russians and modern Finns share biological affinity. Just like modern Swedes and modern Finns.

Ingrians are merely an anecdote of history today. Bolsheviks ethno/genocided them. Northwest Russians and Karelians share pretty much same biologiocal roots, and even same culture to certain extent. Igrians were simply Finns, lutherans by faith and spoke in Finnish.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 15:45
Half of the tribes which formed the Ancient principality of Novgorod (from which actually the meaningful recorded Russian history begins) were Finnish.
 
And we have a thread about this interesting topic already.
 
One more time for you reference:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 15:53
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Half of the tribes which formed the Ancient principality of Novgorod (from which actually the meaningful recorded Russian history begins) were Finnish.
 
And we have a thread about this interesting topic already.
 
One more time for you reference:
 
 
 


That is indeed very interesting topic. Half of modern day Finland was part of Novgorod, thing people usually forget. We shall continue in the other thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_N%C3%B6teborg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 18:19
 
just a random thought ...
 
Whatever very little " Mongoloid " admix in modern day Finns,I think it's a residue from many centuries past due to Finland's low population haven't thinned out the hereditary Asiatic bloodline by this time.It's just my opinion,not back up by any scientific studies.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 18:48
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
just a random thought ...
 
Whatever very little " Mongoloid " admix in modern day Finns,I think it's a residue from many centuries past due to Finland's low population haven't thinned out the hereditary Asiatic bloodline by this time.It's just my opinion,not back up by any scientific studies.
 
 


That "mongoloid" thing is myth. I seriously doubt that there is any significant amount of East Asian heritage in Finland. In future there will be, intermarriage with Thai's is very popular LOL

Here is "racial map" from 1970's. It is done by Karin Mark, Estonian anthropologist.



West Finland belongs to Atlanto-Baltic Race, that would also be known as "Nordic race", East Finland and Nortwest Russia belongs to Whitesea-Baltic Race. This is also known as East Baltic Race. This methodology is obviously pretty outdated but it shows the dual biological origins of Finns.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 18:53
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:

 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
just a random thought ...
 
Whatever very little " Mongoloid " admix in modern day Finns,I think it's a residue from many centuries past due to Finland's low population haven't thinned out the hereditary Asiatic bloodline by this time.It's just my opinion,not back up by any scientific studies.
 
 


That "mongoloid" thing is myth. I seriously doubt that there is any significant amount of East Asian heritage in Finland.


 
 
I meant " proto-Siberian " not modern East Asian heritage.That professor Wiik is a baffoon.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 21:54
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
I meant " proto-Siberian " not modern East Asian heritage.That professor Wiik is a baffoon.
 


Siberian ? Siberia starts east of Ural mountains. That is 3.000 km's east of Finland. Finno-Ugric languages are tought to originate in Central Russia 4000 - 6000 years ago, west of Ural mountains anyway. Language ofcource doesnt equate with genes and should be handled separately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 02:38
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

I think chosing sexual partners has a large cultural element in it as well... Spanish women of this age group have more of a mental block of mating with foreigners; and if they do so, surprisingly, the prefered partners are North Africans or Middle Easterners.

This son of Peruvian parents will change those ladies' minds on foreigners when I travel to Spain for my study abroad program.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 04:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
 
Should we raise this question with the Saami ? After all, since 1917, Helsinki has not recalled its own travails prior to 1863.
 
 
 
 
Roots of Saami ethnicity Clap  !
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fennica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 06:53
Originally posted by Torsten Stålhandske Torsten Stålhandske wrote:

[
That is indeed very interesting topic. Half of modern day Finland was part of Novgorod, thing people usually forget. We shall continue in the other thread.
You referr to the pähkinäsaaren rauha.
I can't really support the idea that half of the modern Finland was part of the Novgorod.

-Because Karelians were allies with Novgorod, but this alliance did not include them as integral part of the Kingdom.(not to mention that Soviets stole the lands anyway, thus modern era Finland has no Karelia)
-North-Western parts also were not under Novgorodian rule.
En uneksi.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Torsten Stålhandske Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 10:07
Originally posted by Fennica Fennica wrote:


-Because Karelians were allies with Novgorod, but this alliance did not include them as integral part of the Kingdom.(not to mention that Soviets stole the lands anyway, thus modern era Finland has no Karelia)
-North-Western parts also were not under Novgorodian rule.


Pähkinälinna/Nöteborg treaty was made 1323. Korela was allready part of Novgorod back then:

Quote
The independent trade between Novgorod and Karelia probably ended in
the late thirteenth century. In 1278, Novgorodian Prince Dmitrij
Aleksandrovi² embarked on a war campaign to Karelia and evidently
conquered the fortress of Käkisalmi. It is from this year on that Karelia
could be considered to be part of the Novgorodian tax district. According to
historian Eric Christiansen, that campaign could have been launched
because the Karelians had tried to trade directly with the Germans.
Furthermore, Christensen thinks that the trade returned back to the old
order after the campaign. (Christiansen 1997: 119; Korpela 2004: 62).


http://www.slav.helsinki.fi/nwrussia/eng/sbornik2008/koivisto.pdf

Karelians lived as west as Oulu (had access to Bothnianbay). Delimeter of the border in Finland was Hanhikivi:

http://www.hanhikivi.net/en/hanhikivi.php?sivu=hanhikivirelic


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 17:19
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

 
I'm generally quite sceptical and antagonistic towards genetical studies, because they tend to attract nationalists and similar making ludicrous claims.


 
 
Wholeheartedly agree.
 
There are some online " amateur DNA self-trained specialist " crackpots manipulate & distort charts to fit personal agenda LOL 
 
Those few idiots actually expose their own insecurity & inferiority complex LOL
 
 
 
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Today in Estonia and Finland geneticists and archaeologist have focused on the theory that the Fenno-Ugric languages speaking people arrived here immediately after the end of the ice age. No one does not take anymore seriously the arrival of Siberian theory because it does not confirmed by nor archaeological or genetic research. Later a large migration to Estonia and Finland has not been revealed.

According to Richard Villems, haolgrupp N spread from west to east rather than east to west:
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010130IE4
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Villems2004.pdf
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Tambets2001.pdf
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rootsi2000.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mygger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 09:57
Villems:
"This leads us back to the age-old
problem of the ancient home of the Finno-Ugrians, which is almost as old and
indistinct as the question of the ancient home of the Indo-Europeans. The
classical view that the latter lies in Siberia has persisted for over a century.
And indeed, among the Yakut the above-mentioned paternal line is more
numerous than among even the Estonians or Finns. It now appears, however,
that this circum-arctic paternal line more likely migrated from Eastern Europe
to Siberia than vice versa. In determining the original home of gene lines,
internal divergence is of greater importance than frequency of occurrence.
This parameter is, however, considerably higher among the Finno-Ugrians of
Europe. This leads to a very important generalisation: the extensive
overlapping of the paternal lines of Siberian Ugrians and Finno-Ugrians, to
which there is no parallel among maternal lines, is proof of an extensive
eastward flow of genes caused predominantly by men, presumably in the late
Upper Palaeolithic period. The Dnieper-Don refuge during the Ice Age, more
precisely the process of resettlement following the retreat of the glaciers,
would have been a natural source of this flow. The said process was
presumably connected with the movement of the main animals of prey
(during the time of the refuge mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses)
northwards and to Siberia. In any case, in contrast to our pan-European
(Western Eurasia-like) maternal lines, Estonians, Finns and most other
Northern European Finno-Ugrians have extensive connections with the
peoples of Siberia through their paternal lines, yet not with the main Mongol
tribes, which lack the corresponding paternal line."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mygger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 10:00
Willems:
"Who then are the Estonians, in genetic terms, and where did they come
from? Based on our present knowledge, we have no reason to devise complex
patterns; the great majority of the Estonians’ genes presumably originate from
post-Ice Age Europeans, those who arrived about 40 thousand years ago and
survived the 8000-year Ice Age in refuges Furthermore, there are no
influential arguments that would lead one to presume the people who lived
here before the Ice Age (and there is also no reason to believe that they did
not live here) were not predominantly of the same genetic makeup as those
who established the refuges 24–25 centuries ago, as the ice boundary moved
southward and moved with it, i.e. northward, as the ice retreated. This of
course concerns only our genetic history, and does not purport to explain the
details of ethnogenesis."
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