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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 10:34
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Do Uralics have dual origins?
 


 
 
I meant dual-racial origins.Is it possible that there exists such race or ethnity in that region of present day northern Russia ?! Case in point,people of India sub-continent are extreme dark-complexioned Caucasoid looking but racially identified as Asian.Some males are very hairy.
 
Uralic individuals have kinda exotic distinctive " Eurasian " looks,not quite the same as Amerasians or mestizos.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 11:10
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
I meant dual-racial origins.Is it possible that there exists such race or ethnity in that region of present day northern Russia ?! Case in point,people of India sub-continent are extreme dark-complexioned Caucasoid looking but racially identified as Asian.Some males are very hairy.
 
Uralic individuals have kinda exotic distinctive " Eurasian " looks,not quite the same as Amerasians or mestizos.
 


You musn't think of the human species as divided into clear-cut "races".
All the phenotypes we perceive are a combination of many genes.

The shape of the eyes are from one gene, the texture of hair another, the shape of the nose another, the skin color is controlled again by a different gene.... etc.

different peoples from different parts of the world have a distinct combination of certain genes that determine their phenotype. This is why there is no "absolute" way into dividing mankind into categories.
If you divide by skin color; then Europeans and East Asians would be in one group and Indians and Africans into another.
If you divide by nose shape; then Europeans, West Asians, Horn Africans, and Central Asians (Kazakhs, Kyrgyz) would be one group; while East Asians and West Africans would belong to another....
By eye shape, then East Asians, Central Asians, and some Africans would be classed as one group while Europeans, West Asians, South East Asians, and other Africans would be classed as another.....
If you divide by "beard growth", then Europeans, west Asians, and Japanese would be in one group.
If you divide by blood type, then all those with type A would be in one group, B in another, 0 in another etc....

The Uralian peoples, for the combination of genes that they inherited, have some features that belong to North and Central Asians while others that belong to Europeans; which isn't surprising.
They look different to Eurasians in the USA because the Eurasian mixture in the U.S. is only 1-2 generations old while the combination of genes inherited by the Uralian and Altaic peoples are a few thousand years old at least.

Human beings originally came from Africa, therefore almost all of the facial features we see among the peoples of the world can be found within Africans (with exception to skin colour, which came from a later mutation).
Check out these photos:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1009352@N20/pool/

Look at the faces of these African women, and you'll see that they contain almost all the distinct facial features in the rest of the world.
You'll see oriental eyes, round eyes, high cheekbones, low cheekbones, big noses, small noses, narrow faces, wide faces......
All the facial features of the peoples around the world come from a combination of the various features observed among Africans.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 14:29
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Depends on which Russian you are talking to. If you're talking to Russian Neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalistas, then I wouldn't be surprised that Russians have ever mixed with anyone; but most the VAST MAJORITY of soviet and Russian anthropologists DO admit to the important contribution of Finno-Ugric and Turkic peoples to the formation of the Russian identity, both on the genetic and on the cultural level.
Most of the Russians on this forum admit to the Ural and Altaic admixture in the Russian people.
 
Yes. This is absolutely true.
 
I also don't understand what Mr. Pebbles ment by "Soviet-Eurasians" ? The official Soviet position was always the "promotion of coexistence and peace between different races etc."  I don't know any "Soviet scientists" obsessed with the desire to prove 100% "Europeaness" of Russians. That doesn't make much sense to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:20
There has been contribution of Mongoloid people to the  Eastern European population both during pre-history and during the 4BCE to onward to the Medieval Times. Of course even the indegenous  cultures of Europe have some relation to the  Central Asian nomads the Teutonic tribes such as the Alans have some roots on the steppes of asia.They migrated to Northern Europe in the 1st millenia BC However they seem to be Nordicized in the time spent there,intermixing with the Parthians and Scythians as they moved Northwest past the Volga and pass the Uraltic Region as they drifted to the Danube and westward into Proper Europe


I'm not certain on how populated Europe was during the first Millenia   BCE and 1st First Millenia AD but the Teutonic tribes drifted southwards from Scandanavia and Finland as a result of flooding in the Noth region. This would bring the Nordic elements to the EUropean populations intermixing with the Celtic and Gaulic tribes.

During the Han dynasty the alot of tribes were exhiled pushed westward as the ancient china became bigger. Tribes such as the Huns,Tartars,and Tocharians. One other tribe was able to establish an a state such as the Goturks who were proto-Turks having  moved towards the West. Others more to the North of China during Tang Dynasties such as the Finns Magyars went moved westward toward eastern Europe. Some occupied the Baltic others went and circled in the other direction of  the Caspian sea


Edited by AksumVanguard - 15-Apr-2009 at 16:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:44
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

There has been contribution of Mongoloid people to the  Eastern European population both during pre-history and during the 4BCE to onward to the Medieval Times. Of course even the indegenous  cultures of Europe have some relation to the  Central Asian nomads the Teutonic tribes such as the Alans have some roots on the steppes of asia.
 
Alans were not a Teutonic tribe but exactly a Steppe Nomadic tribe of Iranic origin. They actually were the main intermediary of the Steppan influences of Goths. But Alans were Europoids not Mongoloids.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 14:01
Can some fellow European forumites here shed light on squabble between Swedish and Finnish in real life and cyberspace ?!
 
Do these 2 general populations get along ?  Finns don't seem to express dislikes for Danes and Norwegians.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 15:03
Some Finns have negative feelings about Swedes of course, but it's not a general rule in all the ways. Finland has a sound Swedish ethnic minority which is feeling itself complitely safe, needless to say that Swedish is an official language in Finland and many Finns speak it fluently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 16:13
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 
 
Some Finns have negative feelings about Swedes of course
 
Finland has a sound Swedish ethnic minority which is feeling itself complitely safe
 
 
 
 
Why ?  Swedish still have imperial attitudes toward the Finns ?
 
Finland became independent since early 20th century,why the country keeps Swedish as second official language ?
 
Just a thought,the Finns must have always been a backward people until recent years ?!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 16:19
Wasn't Finnland a part of Russia?
Which is why Russian ultra-nationalists sometimes talk about the re-anexation of Finnland.

I've known a few Finns while living in London, and they tell me that anti-Russian sentiments are very deep-rooted in Finnland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 16:28
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
 
Wasn't Finland a part of Russia?
 

 
 
Yes,Sweden lost the land ( Swedish regard it a former province ) to Russia Empire during Peter The Great's reign.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 17:22
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
 
Wasn't Finland a part of Russia?
 

 
 
Yes,Sweden lost the land ( Swedish regard it a former province ) to Russia Empire during Peter The Great's reign.
 
 


Actually they lost it century later during Napoleonic Wars.
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Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
 
Why ?  Swedish still have imperial attitudes toward the Finns ?
 
 
I don't understand how you can label all the Swedes like that. It's actually a fact that Swedes abandoned their "imperial attitudes" after the reign of Charles the XIIth in the 18th century.
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Finland became independent since early 20th century,why the country keeps Swedish as second official language ?
 
So, what?  In your opinion discirmination of ethnic minorities is an indication of development?  It just demonstrates a highl level of tolerance and pragmatism of Finns.
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Just a thought,the Finns must have always been a backward people until recent years ?!
 
 
I don't understand what you mean here. And please be very careful cause what you wrote looks like a violation of All Empires CoC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 18:48
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Wasn't Finnland a part of Russia?
Which is why Russian ultra-nationalists sometimes talk about the re-anexation of Finnland.
 
For me (as a Russian) it sounds like a joke.

I've known a few Finns while living in London, and they tell me that anti-Russian sentiments are very deep-rooted in Finnland.
 
I don't agree. In fact, the Russian emperial rule was an epoch of great prosperity for Finns and Finnish self-consciousness developed exactly in the 19th century under the Russian rule.
 
Russian emperial authorities didn't intervene a lot in the Finnish internal affairs and Finns were free of many duties that other subjects of the Empire had to endure. Finns didn't even serve in the Russian army during WWI.
 
In fact, there were no even attempts to Russify Finnland up until a brief period in 1905, but those attempts were unsuccesful.
 
A generally good memoires of Finns regarding the Russian emperial rule are expressed in the fact that the statue of the Russian emperor Alexander the IInd still stays in the center of Helsinki as well as the massive Russian Orthodox Cathedral that was built in the 19th century.
 
Negative atttidues of Finns towards Russians are relatively a recent phenomenon caused mainly my the bitter memories of the winter War of 1939-40 and a so called Continuation War as it's known in Finnland (1941-44) i.e. the participation of Finnland in WWII on the part of the Axis.
 
However, after WWII Finland had very good relations with the USSR and from my own experience I can't say that Finns are somehow particularly anti-Russian. Poles are much more. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 19:12
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
 
Just a thought,the Finns must have always been a backward people until recent years ?!
 
 
I don't understand what you mean here. And please be very careful cause what you wrote looks like a violation of All Empires CoC.
 
 
 
 
I didn't mean to describe the Finns in a condescending manner.What I've been reading,a handful ( online ) nationalistic Swedes repeatedly wrote Sweden civilized indigenous Finns by established the " Western " institutions.Sometimes,they would refer Finns as Northern Asian people have little in common and little genetic tie with purest Germanic Swedes.
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 15-Apr-2009 at 19:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 19:29
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Finns didn't even serve in the Russian army during WWI.
I am pretty sure that General Mannerheim and other senior Finnish officers served in the Russian Imperial Army. Perhaps service in the Czarist armed forces was not mandatory for Finns, but some Finns volunteered to serve.


Edited by Cryptic - 15-Apr-2009 at 19:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 21:22
Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Finns didn't even serve in the Russian army during WWI.
I am pretty sure that General Mannerheim and other senior Finnish officers served in the Russian Imperial Army. Perhaps service in the Czarist armed forces was not mandatory for Finns, but some Finns volunteered to serve.
 
Yes, he volunteered. He was a noble and military career was a popular choice among the nobles of the Russian Empire of different ethnic descent (German, Swedish, Cental Asian etc.) although the military service wasn't mandatory for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 21:25
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

I didn't mean to describe the Finns in a condescending manner.What I've been reading,a handful ( online ) nationalistic Swedes repeatedly wrote Sweden civilized indigenous Finns by established the " Western " institutions.Sometimes,they would refer Finns as Northern Asian people have little in common and little genetic tie with purest Germanic Swedes.
 
 
In that case, please don't ascribe the opinion of a handful group of freaks to the Swedish people as a whole.
 
As a general matter, Sweden is a country famous for its tolerance, not for something else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 21:25
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
I didn't mean to describe the Finns in a condescending manner.What I've been reading,a handful ( online ) nationalistic Swedes repeatedly wrote Sweden civilized indigenous Finns by established the " Western " institutions.Sometimes,they would refer Finns as Northern Asian people have little in common and little genetic tie with purest Germanic Swedes. 
 
You shouldn't pay so much atention to nationalist propaganda.
Ultra-nationalists in every nation try to belittle others or refer to them as "impure" (as if being "pure" would make one more superior).
 
For example, Basque nationalists claim that it was they who brought "civilization" and advancement to the whole of Spain; and that Basque males are more "manly" and sexually verile than men from other parts of Spain LOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 08:39
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 
 
 
I also don't understand what Mr. Pebbles meant by "Soviet-Eurasians" ?
 
 
 
 
I've encountered someone refused and rejected the ethnic term " Mongoloid-Siberian ethnic or East Asian or Asiatic " for those Oriental-looking people in far-north Russia.This person rather prefers " Eurasian " for description of Uralics regardless they're Caucasoid or Mongoloid.It's ok to use NW Asians Confused but have oppositio to lumping Japanese-looking Siberians in the broader East Asian category which includes Chinese and Koreans.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 10:02
Ugric, Samoyed, and Turco-Mongol people of Siberia don't like to be called "East Asians" because they are not. Their habitat is in "north Asia" rather than "East Asia".
I'd doubt that they reject they are "Mongoloid" because they mostly are. Even many ethnic Russians and Hungarians admit to having "Mongoloid features".

Culturally, Khanti, Mansi, and Nenets have too little in common with China or Japan, just as Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are "Central Asians" with little in common culturally with East Asia.

The same way, Spain and Portugal could be described as "southern Europe" or "western Europe" geographically. Although most Iberians would identify far more culturally with "Southern Europe" than with "Western Europe". This doesn't imply that we reject being "western European". 

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