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    Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 13:47
 
Why is there such a controversy in Europe ? 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 13:59
What controversy??
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Finns are " Mongoloid " !
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 14:24

Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Finns are " Mongoloid " !

Do you mean they belong to the mongoloid race?? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 14:36
Scandinavians are mostly Europeoid/Caucasoid, but there is a slight influx of Mongoloid genes, particularly in the north and east, much like you find it in Russia except to a lesser extent. I know plenty of people with slightly Mongoloid facial features, and a few with markedly Mongoloid features, often in a combination of blonde hair and blue eyes with high cheek bones and slanted eyes. I used to know a girl who was an extreme example of this, unfortunately I don't have a picture. Erik Auvinen however, the one behind the school shooting in Finland not long ago, is a perfect example:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 14:44
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
 
Scandinavians are mostly Europeoid/Caucasoid, but there is a slight influx of Mongoloid genes, particularly in the north and east, much like you find it in Russia except to a lesser extent. I know plenty of people with slightly Mongoloid facial features, and a few with markedly Mongoloid features, often in a combination of blonde hair and blue eyes with high cheek bones and slanted eyes. I used to know a girl who was an extreme example of this, unfortunately I don't have a picture. Erik Auvinen however, the one behind the school shooting in Finland not long ago, is a perfect example:


 
 
Wow ... this is complicated !
 
Are these individuals first & second generation offsprings of European & Siberian marriage unions,or Mongoloid genes inherited from many generations past ?
 
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 02-Apr-2009 at 12:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 14:51
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Finns are " Mongoloid " !
 
 


Finns from Finnland are mostly "Eurpoid" and rather similar to their neighbouring Scandinavian countries. However, speakers of the Finno-Ugric language family include peoples of a wide range of phenotypes, ranging from extreme "Mongoloids" to Nordic "Europoids".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoyedic_peoples

In general, the Ugrian peoples living east of the Urals, such as the Khanti and Mansi, are predominantly Mongoloid, while those living farther west, like the Finns and Estonians, are typical Europoids. The Lapps (or Saami), who live in northern Scandinavia, are a mixture between the 2.
Many Turkic-speaking peoples today, such as the Bashkirs and Volga Tatars, could descend partly from Turkicised Finno-Ugrian peoples.

Finno-Ugrians form a larger part of a "Uralic" language family, that also includes "Samoyed" peoples living in Siberia. The Samoyeds tend to be extreme northern Mongoloids.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 14:59
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Wow ... this is complicated !
 
Are these individuals first & second generation offsrings of Europeans & Siberian marriage unions,Mongoloid inherited from many generations past ?


I don't know really. I know these genes are present because I see them myself on an everyday basis, but I don't know where they stem from. At first I assumed it was due to intermarriage with the Samis, but then I learn the Samis were Europeoid even before the Indo-European influx, so one can only assume it stems from an even older segment.

Not that I find it very mystifying. Genes have a way of spreading across neighbouring regions. You find a lot of Mongoloid admixture in Russians, so it should come as no surprise that this is also evident in some of the Russians' neighbours, particularly Finland. Looking at a map of Russia, it's easy to see how these genes would transit into Scandinavia.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 15:21
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Wow ... this is complicated !
 
Are these individuals first & second generation offsprings of European & Siberian marriage unions,or Mongoloid genes inherited from many generations past ?
 


I know these genes are present because I see them myself on an everyday basis, but I don't know where they stem from. At first I assumed it was due to intermarriage with the Samis, but then I learn the Samis were Europeoid even before the Indo-European influx, so one can only assume it stems from an even older segment.

Not that I find it very mystifying. Genes have a way of spreading across neighbouring regions. You find a lot of Mongoloid admixture in Russians, so it should come as no surprise that this is also evident in some of the Russians' neighbours, particularly Finland. Looking at a map of Russia, it's easy to see how these genes would transit into Scandinavia.


 
 
Do you mean fellow Norwegians or Finns residing in Norway ? Would you please provide a few more photos of Mongoloid-looking Finns or northern Europeans.
 
Russia is the #1 suspect source.
 
Except for recent decades,open inter-racial marriages between Western people & Asians were low.
 
My former manager at work is a native of Utah,he has slanted eyes exactly like the young man in the photo.He could have " Amerindian genes " from a ancestor but this is not common at all in the USA.
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 02-Apr-2009 at 12:34
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Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Finns are " Mongoloid " !
 
 


However, speakers of the Finno-Ugric language family include peoples of a wide range of phenotypes, ranging from extreme "Mongoloids" to Nordic "Europoids".

In general, the Ugrian peoples living east of the Urals, such as the Khanti and Mansi, are predominantly Mongoloid, while those living farther west, like the Finns and Estonians, are typical Europoids. The Lapps (or Saami), who live in northern Scandinavia, are a mixture between the 2.

The Samoyeds tend to be extreme northern Mongoloids.


 
 
Do they believe those Mongoloid Finno-Ugric speakers have blended in with the Finns in the past centuries ?
 
 
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Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Except for recent decades,open inter-racial marriages between Western people & Asians were low.
 


This is a lie.
Intermixing between Europoid and Mongoloid peoples had begun in pre-history; both in Europe and in Asia.

It is believed that Finno-Ugrian speaks had once populated much of Eastern Europe, of what is today northern European Russia. Little is known about their phenotype, but it could possibly have included Mongoloid features; and the indigenous population of the Ural region were partly Mongoloid.
During the expansion of Slavic tribes in Eastern Europe, many of these Finns adopted Slavic language and culture and began to identify themselves as Slavs. Some anthropologists suggest that up to 50% of ethnic Russians could descend from Finno-Ugrians (don't ever tell this to a Russian Nazi).
In a similar manner, they could also have expanded into Scandivania where they intermixed with Vikings and contibuted to the modern gene pool.

Apart from this largely undocomented intermingling of indo-european and Uralian peoples, there are other better known cases of intermxing between Europoids and Mongoloids, starting with the migration of the Xiongnu into Europe, followed by the Avars, and all the other Turkic peoples.

In the East, it has been discovered through DNA analysis of ancient Xiongnu tombs from the 1st century B.C., that 10% of their genes had Europoid origin, meaning that they were a mixed people as early as when they lived in Mongolia.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 16:35
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 

 
Except for recent decades,open inter-racial marriages between Western people & Asians were low.
 
 

 

Intermixing between Europoid and Mongoloid peoples had begun in pre-history; both in Europe and in Asia.

It is believed that Finno-Ugrian speakers had once populated much of Eastern Europe, of what is today northern European Russia. Little is known about their phenotype, but it could possibly have included Mongoloid features; and the indigenous population of the Ural region were partly Mongoloid.

During the expansion of Slavic tribes in Eastern Europe, many of these Finns adopted Slavic language and culture and began to identify themselves as Slavs. Some anthropologists suggest that up to 50% of ethnic Russians could descend from Finno-Ugrians ( don't ever tell this to a Russian Nazi ).

In a similar manner, they could also have expanded into Scandivania where they intermixed with Vikings and contibuted to the modern gene pool.

Apart from this largely undocomented intermingling of Indo-European and Uralian peoples, there are other better known cases of intermxing between Europoids and Mongoloids, starting with the migration of the Xiongnu into Europe, followed by the Avars, and all the other Turkic peoples.


 
 
I see,it was the ancient Mongoloid-looking Steppes peoples intermixed with them extensively.It's good to know this much informations in a broader spectrum.
 
Is this a wide spread controversy over there or it's just a mudsling cyber-war between Swede & Finn natonalists.
 
Why pick on the Finns not Russians ?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 02:15
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Why is there such a controversy in Europe ? 
 
 
 
There are no any "controversies"
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Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Do you mean fellow Norwegians or Finns residing in Norway ? Would you please provide a few more photos of Mongoloid-looking Finns or northern Europeans.


I'd like to, but it's not like there are online galleries for this sort of thing (or?), I'd probably have to take the pictures myself. It was just sheer coincidence that this high school shooter happened to be one of them.
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Except for recent decades,open inter-racial marriages between Western people & Asians were low.

A further comment on this one. While North European males today aren't blocked from mating with women from Southern Europe, Africa and the Middle East, I see far more North Europeans who are with East Asian/Mongoloid women than any of the aforementioned. I've also noticed how North Europeans who adopt a child tend to adopt from East Asian countries, while they do have other options. Having travelled quite a bit in Southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey), I have not observed a similar trend there at all.

Now I won't be as presumptious as to give any definite explanation as to why this is so, but since it is believed that humans have certain genetic affinities that determine who we choose to create our offspring with, one could speculate that a Mongoloid segment in the genetic heritage has some part in it. Perhaps it causes North European males to prefer Mongoloid mating partners in the absence of a Nordic Europeoid one.

To further complicate things there are women, of course. North European women tend to prefer South European men or even African and Middle Eastern ones over East Asian ones if given the choice, but still prefer to adopt children from East Asia. Peculiar.

Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Why pick on the Finns not Russians ?


Pick on? It's not like having Mongoloid genes is a bad thing. I guess some nationalists might resent it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 10:37
I think chosing sexual partners has a large cultural element in it as well.
For example, in Spain, I've seen a trend take a reverse turn in less than one generation.

The most common inter-national marriage here is between Spaniards and Latin Americans.
Among the generation older than 30, the ones who are getting married now, the pattern is overwhelmingly Spanish men marrying Ecuadorean, Colombian, Dominican, or Peruvian women. Spanish women of this age group have more of a mental block of mating with foreigners; and if they do so, surprisingly, the prefered partners are North Africans or Middle Easterners.
Out of every 10 mixed marriages, in 8 or 9 cases the Spaniard is male.

Among teenagers, the trend has reversed; as 16 and 17 year old growing up in mixed neighbourhoods have little mental "blockage" in mating with those of foreign phenotype. Among this age group, it tends to be Spanish girls who are more willing to date Latin-American boys!
I think this has a lot to do with education, as Spanish women have been rather "repressed" up to the current generation so they naturally suffer greater taboos.

Regarding European men prefering East Asian women and European women prefering "southern" men, I always have my "instintive explanation".
In general, men tend to be attracted to smaller women, while women tend to be attracted to larger men, whether taller or stronger.
East Asians in general tend to be smaller and less hairy than Europeans; and "smaller" and "less hairy" are generally considered to be more feminine traits; which gives their women an advantage, but not the men.

Men also attract women with their attitude and prowess; such as the way they walk and dance. In this sense, African and Latin American men have more of a cultural tradition, which gives them an advantage.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 13:37
There's no one Finn who looks anywhere similar to "Mongoloids" at all. That Auvinen guy - who' surely an anomaly anyway  -maybe he had similar eyes, but what about all the other features he had? He looked quite European, not Asian at all.
It's like if you claim some Southern Europeans have "Mongoloid" features, just because some people have black hair, which Asians also have, and ignore the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 14:22
It's not quite that simple. First off Europeoids in that area have intermingled with Mongoloids from the east since time immemorial, it would be more surprising if they didn't exhibit any Mongoloid traits. There is a gradual transition of predominantly (but not completely) Europeoid traits in the west around Russia and Finland to increasingly Mongoloid traits in Central Asia. In both regions you find the genetic legacy of their neighbours and in both regions you will find some people in whom it is more pronounced, like Auvinen.

The black hair argument doesn't hold up as light hair is a much later and marginal evolution that the majority of humanity did not go through.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 14:48

It doesn't hold up, because it's equally stupid. Maybe some Finns have narrow eyes, and some Finns have some minute eastern ancestry, but those two phenomenon isn't necessarily connected. Finns have been isolated, they have a genetic bottleneck happen to them, so if anything, they're more "pure" - it's just that their makeup is slightly different than Western Euros - that doesn't mean much.

 

Can you tell me a specific "Mongoloid" trait that Finns possess i general? A trait that has to come from a Mongoloid origin?
 
Ps. it's light eyes and skin that are recent, not really light hair, it can be found all around the globe, even among people who haven't had contact for at least 40 k years - probably there are several different genes involved.



Edited by Jams - 03-Apr-2009 at 04:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 07:18
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Except for recent decades,open inter-racial marriages between Western people & Asians were low.
 


This is a lie.

Intermixing between Europoid and Mongoloid peoples had begun in pre-history,both in Europe and in Asia.

It is believed that Finno-Ugrian speaks had once populated much of Eastern Europe,of what is today northern European Russia. Little is known about their phenotype, but it could possibly have included Mongoloid features; and the indigenous population of the Ural region were partly Mongoloid.


 
 
It seems it's the Russian ethnics & Soviet-Eurasians deny any intermixing between Europoid and Mongoloid peoples in the past or continuity of it from pre-history.Of-course,they can't refute recent intermixes as live examples are before our eyes.
 
Funny,it's often them try to hide any " Mongoloid or Asiatic " existence among themselves LOL
 
Do you think the Uralics have " dual origins " ?
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 08:26
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

It seems it's the Russian ethnics & Soviet-Eurasians deny any intermixing between Europoid and Mongoloid peoples in the past or continuity of it from pre-history.Of-course,they can't refute recent intermixes as live examples are before our eyes.
 
Funny,it's often them try to hide any " Mongoloid or Asiatic " existence among themselves LOL
 
Do you think the Uralics have " dual origins " ?
 


Depends on which Russian you are talking to. If you're talking to Russian Neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalistas, then I wouldn't be surprised that Russians have ever mixed with anyone; but most the VAST MAJORITY of soviet and Russian anthropologists DO admit to the important contribution of Finno-Ugric and Turkic peoples to the formation of the Russian identity, both on the genetic and on the cultural level.
Most of the Russians on this forum admit to the Ural and Altaic admixture in the Russian people.

Do Uralics have dual origins?
Of course they do, as EVERY POPULATION in the world has multi-lineage origins.
I suggest you check out these sites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mitochondrial_DNA_haplogroup

First, try to understand what a Haplogroup is, and then you'd realise that all human populations contain a mixture of distinct Haplogroups: some of which have common African origin, others common Eurasian, and some are exclusive to certain populations but then spread across the globe.

I also suggest that you check out this site:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/index.html

There are some VERY informative maps about the origins of each human mutation and its path of migration.

After reading these sites you'd probably understand that the concept of "biological races" is invalid when it comes to human genetics.
Every population in the world (or "race" as you like to call it) is an amalgamation of several lineage, some of which are shared with other lineages.




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