History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedFenno-Ugrians

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fenno-Ugrians
    Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 17:32
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It is important to know what they called themselves, the Avestan name is "Sairima", the first part "Sairi" means "head/headship" in the Avestan language: Avestan Dictionary 
 Does "Sairima" mean "the region above Media" in Avestan?


"Sarma" relates to Saarenmaa - from which the first Vaner came out.

Actually it is north of Black Sea and Caucasus which in turn are north of lake Van. Neither Black Sea, nor Caucasus are known as "Van" as far as I know.
Do you know any other names which were created in this manner? E.g. Egyptians be called "north of Kenya"...?
 


If the Etiopians came out of the sources of the Nile - the Kenyans could very well call them "Gyptians" or something like that.

The Vans at the lake of Van and north of this lake were conneted to the northern areas of Ucrane, Belo-Russia, Russia and the Baltics, who were all called "Vans" originally - by their western neighbours. Later they were called Vene/Vendi/Wendi/Wends.

These "Vans" were living east of Weichsel - south to Transyl-van-ia, and east of Ural. The Tocharians, even, were a branch of these arctic pastoralists. I the north we still find them - as "borelian wends" - called "Kvens", "Permians", "Murians", etc.

The fenno-ugrian speakers (=Vans) orignally populated all of the eastern partof Eurasia, while the indo-european speakers (=europeans/"proto-germans") populated the west.
Later we had other people invading these areas - from the south - creating various new goups which end-product can be seen in the present demography of Eurasia.
 
The "Van language" was fenno-ugrian - and thus they were all "One-and-the-same" to the german and other indo-european peoples. Note the equality between the acient word "van" and the very modern word "one" - as we know it from the English language of today.

As the Roman and the Persian empires grew into the respective parts of northern Eurasia the ethnic compositions hanged - as did the laguages of the area were the sub-tropical and the sub-arctic cutures mixed.

In the post-roman times the large etnicities of the north - with "Vaner" to the east and "Norse" to the west - was gradually changed, divided and restructured. And - the old unities were splitted - so the "Norse" became Galician, Galatians, Gauls, superior Germans, inferior Germans (!), Teutoni, Sueoni, Danae, Dalmati, etc., etc.

In the east similar splits of the Vans/Wends occured - as the Greek and the Persians started to describe the varous districts of the Vans - and by time - influencing the various populations themselves. Thus we got Alani, Veneti, Oseti, Azeri, etc.

Meanwhile we find pockets of "vans", "sakas" and "guti" in the south - as we find "romans", "greeks", "persians" and "turks" placed or mixed in north of the mountains. The characteristics of the old cultures, etnicities and languages are today found only in the high-arctic and deep-tropic areas. The rest of us are some kind of mix anyway...

---

The genetic charts of today still reflect these demografic structures. Understanding that only the high-northern and deep-southern etnicities still show the "original" genetics we may understand how the arctic peoples spread after ice-time - to populate the entire continent north of the mountains, as well as initiating contact with the sothern populations - afte ice-time.

Some 4000 years ago the product of these contacts started to move inbetween eachother. One example being the Gypsies that moved out of the Mahabarata of  India - while a palell migration of "asian soldiers" was running into the Persian gulf, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, the Levat, Egypt, Libya, Spain and Rome - to conquer and rule.
 
As a consequence of al this agrivation the old captols of Istanbul and Rome also gre agressive - which finally made them turn north to conqer and rule the prosperous lands of the sub-arctic cultures. When the concept of ruling foreign subjects became effective it was developed into subjugation as a demagogic form of ideology - to rule masses. Consequently we got written clausuls aof dictate and dictatorship - to hold old, splintered cultures together.

Thus we got new combinations of cultural elements - as the german Franks learned to speak Roman we got the "lingua franca" in the west. Combining the native feno-ugrian of the old vans with the Greek-Persian (Turkish) influence we got the new "Slo-van", which became the"lingua franca" of the east.

As the new franco-roman tongue and the latin alphabet was spread by the catholic bible, the slo-van langage and the greek-uralic/grylic alphabet was spread thoughout the eastern part of the old Roman empire - and beyond.

Though - funny how the Polish and Latvians still became catholic - but thats just goes o prove that the twists of history are making exceptons - to confirm the general outlines... Wink




Edited by Boreasi - 04-Nov-2008 at 17:34
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 552
Post Options Post Options   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 22:49
Originally posted by Boreasi


These "Vans" were living east of Weichsel - south to Transyl-van-ia,

Note the equality between the acient word "van" and the very modern word "one" - as we know it from the English language of today.
 
You're fooling us, do you?
Back to Top
Boyo View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 06-Mar-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boyo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 06:05

That’s a very audacious theory. Words ven/vind and its cognates are splattered all over Europe.I haven’t yet heard of anyone associating them with Fenno-Ugrian. I think Russia is called Vendia or similar in Finnish.. Apparently there is fenno-ugrain substratum in Slavic but I haven’t heard of Fenno-Ugrian substratum in western Slavic. Fenno Ugrian influence is missing even in south Baltic areas and everywhere south of it., in a straight line.

 

Franks learned to speak Roman due to historical events, namely roman expansion, which is supported by multitude of evidence, on the other hand a new “lingua franca” of the east is far more tricky to connect to.

There is Greek Persian influence in Slavic, obviously but this influence dates before the Slavic “lingua franca” was established in Eastern Europe.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 05-Nov-2008 at 13:39
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 20:26
Originally posted by beorna

Originally posted by Boreasi


These "Vans" were living east of Weichsel - south to Transyl-van-ia,

Note the equality between the acient word "van" and the very modern word "one" - as we know it from the English language of today.
 
You're fooling us, do you?


No.

While the range of our ability to hear is wide the repertoire of the human tongue is quite limited. Thus we have something called phonetics,where our sounds - and their various associations of context and meaning - can be comrehended, collected, mapped, re-viewed, processed, systemized, analyzed and thus understood - as matters of knowledge and scientific research.

A completly different approach to lingustic researh is known by the mapping, systematization and analyzis of various writing-systems and their consequent written descriptions of the basic sounds and their meaning.

Understaning how our languages have developed have so far been limited to investigate the mere reflections of the primary sources - as most ancient languages are ONLY understood by the invstigations of the secondary source - their signs, syllables or letters. Duely so, since none of us can know  - in scientific terms - how the original pronounciation - behind their respective descriptions - were constituted, pronounced and establishd - as common reflections of common thougths around basic comprehensions.

Thus we cant bypass the sounds behind the words if we want to understand the development of our the various words in use by modern man. Though - since we can deduct - from genetics and archeology - that we have had a common origin, as specie and as speakers, we may look within the various branches of toungues for common sounds, that have represented common understandings and contexts.

Today we have a lot of linguists that differ between various words as if they were of different concepts or even different langages, just because they are spelled different. At times we have had stalemated linguists building theories of separated cultures over discriminations of words - like "foney" from "phonie" - due to the variation of letters in old manuscripts. We used to call these intelects "letter-heads" or, rather, "letter-faithed".

Thus we have a problem today, since to much of the language sciences are based on modern misconceptions. One such belief still active is that that words of similar sounding have nothing to with each other - if they are written differently. If they also are found in different writing-traditions, such as gothic vs. celtic vs. norse (runes) - the general assumption is that these word(s) have nothing to do with each other. An outline of last centurys research is the poor assumption that the runic letters, the celtic letters and the gotic sylables reflect etirely different languages.

The truth is that they migth have nothing to do with each other. The other side of that is that they migth have a lot to do with each other - to the extent were Celtic, Gotic and Norse merly reflect various traditions of writing-forms, reflecting dialects of a basicly common toungue.   

Exclamation

The word "one" is thus a very good example. In old writing systems the very same sound is reflected with different letters. Thus we have "oan", "ouan", "uan", "van", "wan", "fan".

Note that 1 in the western root is written "En" (:e-en) - today also written/pronounced "Ein". "Uone"> "Uno" >"Una" just goes to describe the inter-change between the Eurasian poplations througout neolitic and later times.

Now - secondly - we may start to investigate what this sound means in the various contexts were we find it. Thus I find it relevant that the sound and word "Uone" in one (indo-european) language means (number) 1 (one) and in another means "A people". 

The words "Vans"/"Vener"/"Wands"/"Wenden"/"Wendi"/"Väne" - all represent the same etynom - adressing the one-and-same population - seen from western Europe and the "German" tongues.

Then - thirdly - we may start looking for this population as they appear in various sources.
Consequently - as the Russians are still called "Väne-lainen" and "Väne-jä", we migth find them there. Checking the old Norse literature we find the "Vanir" in the same area - and "Van-land" included the Baltic, (eastern) Poland, Belo-Russia and Ukraine. From Caelia nothwards the Norse describe them as "C-wens". Later some of the southern branches from this people are named Wends, Vene, Veneti, etc.

Lamp

Today most of the Van-people have been erased, moved or assimilated by other peoples or cultures. But still today we find a genetic substratum in all the Russian populations - including the Belo-Russians, Ukrainians, Slavons and Serbs. In Poland and Lativa it is still present in thir history (Wends/Wendi) and in Estonia, Ingria, Carelia and Finland - as well as alot of Russian minorities - it is still imminent in their language as well as their genes.

Thus we have to look into the "PCT-theory" from the italian professor Mario Alinei (et al) - who describes the first imigrants to spread and populate across north-eastern Eurasia as fenno-ugrian. Spreading out through the Mesolitic the consequently inhabitted all of the eastern part of the arctic world during neoliticum and Bronze Age - until the iron age occured with escalating warfares, etnocides and migrations.

Though - as you may deduce the old cultures of archeology and genetics we do find TWO separate cultures spreading throughout the open continent of northern Eurasia - as ice-time went into Mesoliticum and Neoliticum.  Their specific, cultural characteristics can be followed all the way through Bronze age before they are boken up - when the Roman and Persians started to expnd northwards - and the northerners started to produce iron.

Nuke

The border between these archaic cultures are clear until Roman times - in the north until "Christian" time. In the very north the changes of christianization did not develop into etnocides or large migrations - and thus we migth still find grops of the origial Eurasian population at the "northern fringes" of the continent.

Thus we find the east-west border still unchanged in the very north - were the Botnic Bay and its Torne river still divide the Fenno-Ugrian etnicity, language and traditions from the Scandinavian genes, language and culture. Both these populations are proven to derive straight from the Paleolitic populations that migrated into N Europe - already before the ice-time was over.

South of the Baltic Ocean we have the very same division - genetically and linguistially, although the southern impulses, inter-actions and later migrations are obvious here. The impacts of the Roman Empire have been destinal - as the western (>latin) impact in France and SE England and the eastern (>slavonic) impact in Transylvania reached Balkan, Polan, Lituania, as well as Aserbadjan, Georgia, Ukraine and Russia.

The archaeologic traces though, still shows how the Feno-Ugrian culture once populated all the area east of Weichsel and Trans-syl-vania - north of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. The mummies of the arctic climate of the Himalayas left them oÃ¥pen areas also there - and the mummies of the Tarim Bassin, now in China, bears witness to the blonde, red-headed "Scytians". 

Note that "Skyt" and "Skot" (as in Skot-land) in the IE root means "shoot" or "off-shot".  "Skytian/Skitian" and "Sakas" are greek resp. persian names of this population.

Regarding Trans-syl-van, see also the etynoms Silva/Sil-vanus vs. Sil-vest in Roman and Sil-enos in Greek...Wink



 


Edited by Boreasi - 10-Nov-2008 at 21:03
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 06:29

On Eurasian genetics;


"Previous studies of Y chromosome variation have revealed that western Europe, the Volga-Ural region, and the Caucasus differ dramatically with respect to Y-SNP haplogroup composition. The European part of Russia is situated in between these three regions; to determine if these differences reflect clines or boundaries in the Y-chromosome landscape, we analyzed 12 Y-SNPs in 545 males from 12 populations from the European part of Russia. The majority of Russian Y chromosomes (from 74% to 94%) belong to three Y chromosomal lineages [I-M170, R1a1-M17, and N3-TAT] that are also frequent in the rest of east Europe, north Europe, and/or in the Volga-Ural region. We find significant but low correlations between haplogroup frequencies and the geographic location of populations, suggesting gradual change in the Y chromosome gene pool across western Eurasia. However, we also find some significant boundaries between populations, suggesting that both isolation and migration have influenced the Y chromosome landscape."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119054392/abstract

Regarding the old discrepency - east and west of Vistula/Weichsel/Wisla;


German and Poles

"To test for human population substructure and to investigate human population history we have analysed Y-chromosome diversity using seven microsatellites (Y-STRs) and ten binary markers (Y-SNPs) in samples from eight regionally distributed populations from Poland (n=913) and 11 from Germany (n=1,215). Based on data from both Y-chromosome marker systems, which we found to be highly correlated (r=0.96), and using spatial analysis of the molecular variance (SAMOVA), we revealed statistically significant support for two groups of populations: (1) all Polish populations and (2) all German populations. By means of analysis of the molecular variance (AMOVA) we observed a large and statistically significant proportion of 14% (for Y-SNPs) and 15% (for Y-STRs) of the respective total genetic variation being explained between both countries. The same population differentiation was detected using Monmonierrsquos algorithm, with a resulting genetic border between Poland and Germany that closely resembles the course of the political border between both countries. The observed genetic differentiation was mainly, but not exclusively, due to the frequency distribution of two Y-SNP haplogroups and their associated Y-STR haplotypes: R1a1*, most frequent in Poland, and R1*(xR1a1), most frequent in Germany."

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w75j6048545350g5/


Slav-speaking populations and DNA

"A set of 18 Y-chromosomal microsatellite loci was analysed in 568 males from Poland, Slovakia and three regions of Belarus. The results were compared to data available for 2,937 Y chromosome samples from 20 other Slavic populations.

Lack of relationship between linguistic, geographic and historical relations between Slavic populations and Y-short tandem repeat (STR) haplotype distribution was observed.

Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: one encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and two Southern-Slavic populations, and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. An analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) based on Y-chromosomal STRs showed that the variation observed between the two population groups was 4.3%, and was higher than the level of genetic variance among populations within the groups (1.2%).

Homogeneity of northern Slavic paternal lineages in Europe was shown to stretch from the Alps to the upper Volga and involve ethnicities speaking completely different branches of Slavic languages."


http://www.springerlink.com/content/c3ht013txp686v71/


P.S.

Again, - the slavonic languages developed as the east Roman empire evolved ot of Contantinopel. Though it didn't define itself before the eastern empire really distanced itself from Rome - to become the new Metropolis.

Based on the old greek church it encompased todays Macedonia, Greece and Turkey - from were it started to signify itself after Constantin - beween the old Roman and Persian cultures. This hemisphere would be based on of the old (greek) culture of Istan-bull and Bull-gars - who populated the area from Tansylvania to Caucasus.

By the 9th and 10th  century the entire empire of the Rus joined in as well - which made all the northen shores of  the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea a part of the greek-orthodox culture an writing-system.  By the year 1000 the entire area of Ukraine and Greater Russia belonged to this church - and later their powers grew to include all of Eastern Europe - where the old fenno-ugrian language once existed.

When Istanbul turned Muslim the new centre of the Metroplolit would have to be moved westwards - or north. Thus we find the area around the Black Sea as the  "heartland" of both the oldest christian societies as well as the slavonic languages - that evidenly spread from the Capats to the Caspian Sea - south to Cyprus and north to "Varangia".

North of the great Seas there used to be Scytians and Sarmatians - with Russians north of Kiev. Tracing their etnic origin and genetics they are - still - connected to the part of eastern Europe that id not become greek-orthodox, i.e. Hungary, Estonia and Finland. Thus we my accept that these areas was once populated by relatives to the peope that still populate Hungary, Estonia, Finland - pluss parts of Russia and  Belo-Russia.  Some of these Wenden can also be found in todays Germany, eventhough they today speak more German than Wendish - today.  In Poland, Slovakia and norhern Balkan they sure speak slavonic - eventhough they still share the profile of R1a1 with the Hungarians, Carelians and Finns.

Since the Sultan conquered Istanbul and made it Muslim the epicentre of the Greek-Orthodox church - as well as its Slavonic language - had to move off its Bosporian origin - and move its political "Sofia" west of Bosporos and north of the Black Sea. Without the old Metropolis the eastern church divided though - into a Greek hemisphere, a Bulgarian/Macedon and a Russian/Slovan. Thanks to the catholic Danes, Swedes and Saxons of the 12th century Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and Finland  became Catholic.

At the end of the middle ages the northern countries were reformed and started to write the bible as well as all other books in their native languages - using Roman letters.  Thus the Estonian, Finns, Scandianvians, Germans and English do not write or speak Latin or French - anymore.

The old Wends of Lithuania and Poland, though, got a specific destiny. First they adapted the Slavonic language from their southern neigbours and trade-prtners - during the end of the first millenium.  Then they were forced to submit to the Catholic faith and the Roman letters during the 11th, 12th ad 13th century.  As the genetics show the (still) belonging to the "Uralian" etnicity, while they (still) speak "applied greek", use "roman letters" and - still - consend to the catholic faith...
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 07:16
Originally posted by Boyo

That’s a very audacious theory. Words ven/vind and its cognates are splattered all over Europe.I haven’t yet heard of anyone associating them with Fenno-Ugrian.


Now you have heard and seen, though. Some time must be the first...

Originally posted by Boyo

Franks learned to speak Roman due to historical events, namely roman expansion, which is supported by multitude of evidence, on the other hand a new “lingua franca” of the east is far more tricky to connect to.

Yes - thats why a clear understading haven't been evolving before now. Using the Norse litterature as well as modern genetics - in addition to the updates of comparative research - as reference sources, just haven't occurred before.   

Originally posted by Boyo

There is Greek Persian influence in Slavic, obviously but this influence dates before the Slavic “lingua franca” was established in Eastern Europe.



Thats obvious. The lingua franca of the eastern trading routes along the rivers of Don, Dvina/Djepr, Donau and Wisla was developed in the central areas of the Black Sea - in the later days of the eastern empire. THEN it establish itself further and further north - as the  lingua franca of the Greek-Orthodox trade-, communication-, belief- and writing-system managed to dominate and run all the capitols that traded with the Black Sea.

As you know - by the 10th century the Haga Sofia turned all of Russia into the greek-orthodox belief. Establishing churches from Balkan t the Baltic - north to the arctic, White Sea and east to Ural the Church of St. Mary and the emperor of Constantinopel reigned a wide empire - until their Metropolitan Capitol was conquered by the Sultan and made Muslim.

The northern areas though, continued to write "grylic" and speak "slavonic" - rather than "turkish". And they still attend the sunday sermons under the onion cupolas of the orthodox church...



Edited by Boreasi - 28-Nov-2008 at 07:17
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 08:11
Time to move this thread back to the historical, rather than the "alternative" category.  The PCT- Paleolithic Cointiunuation Theory isn't that alternave anymore. My consequentual extension of it isn't nything but simple logic - eventhough it's not published in a comprehensble context as a scientific paper, as of yet.

Though, the genetic evidence of the connections, approximity and paralells between the IE and Uralian cultures - followeing the spread of the paleolithic/mesolitic caucasians - are gaining more and more support as the genetic scences progress. The division of R1a and R1b is pretty much paralell to the archeological evidences - as well as the demography of present Eurasia.

Just remember that - according to the PCT - the Latin and the Slavon languages are the younger languages of Eurasia. Which means that the northern languages the remains of the oldest IE an Uralic languages - that once divided the northern hemisphere in a western and eastern part - starting from the meridian that divides the Baltic Ocean - following the Wizla river.

Paralell the two similar language-groups seems to have divided the Mediterranean - east and west of Crete. Thus there were speciefic north-south connections between ancient Greece and Egypt and a similar relationship between the Roman and Libyan cultures.

Already 7.500 years ago the western culture of the Med established trade and close relationships with the anglers of the Atlantic facade, while the Greek and the Egyptians traded their amber from Hyperborea through the rivers of Wizla/Donau as well as Dvina-Djepr and Don. These connections seem to have developed relatively peacefully, as the trade grows continously throughout Neolictic and Bronze age, not to be broken before the war of the Greek-Roman federation started to invade also northern Europe...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from-eulau.html 

Edited by Boreasi - 02-Dec-2008 at 08:41
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 552
Post Options Post Options   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 23:28
Your adress is not existing. Is it mistaken? There is a borderline in Middle Europe. But it is not one of Finno-Ugrians, with I don't know what,. This border is between western cultures of an uncertain origion (old european, iberio-mauritanian) and the cultures of the East, which were Indo-Europeans and former Danube cultures of an uncertain origin (Little Asia)
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 07:37
Prbably made a mistake in linking it. Here's anyhow the rigth one - without and with linking...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from-eulau.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from-eulau.html

P.S. If you agree to the east-west division; we still ha the old one up north - where no-one cared to invade and struggle with the nativesthat came there after ice-age. Thus the split beween Scandinavians and Finns are still there and thus highly relevant to the discussion.

Checking the difference of central Europe - along the Weichsel - you'll find an equivalent division. Then add the old German word for Fenno-Ugrians - Van/Ven/Vend - and you'll find the Wen-di, Ven-eti, Vandali, Venuli, Vinnili, Venni, etc. - thoughout the east.

In the native tongue hey used a 10-bit counting system. After 10 the Finns starts to double, saying; "1-toista" (ykksi-toista), "2-toista" (kakksi-toista), "3-toista" (kolme-toista) etc.
As you know the western use a 12-bit count, where 11 and 12 have singular names. Then we start te next circle, by doubling; 3-teen (3-zehn), 4-teen, (4-zehn), 5-teen (5-zehn), etc.
The divergence between this counting-systems ("mentalities") is very clearly east-west of the mentioned meridian.

South of the Alps and the Caucasus they are all 10-bits - as far as I know...

 ---

Compare this with the nations that still call their national area "-land" and who are not.
Then there is another line from the old Basker-land via Switzer-land/Osterlad/Ostmarken - to Rusland north of the Black Sea, where -land change to -gar(ia) and -stan.

---

Then look for the geneic map of lactase-persistence, to check who's been drining milk for he longest time.

---

There's still a clear relevance between arctic nature and the arctic cultures.  Agriculture is obviously a part of the arctic culture - as a way to survive the winters. The etynom of -land - and the way of relating to the gradiation of the circle (10 vs 12), as in seasons and months, are obiously relating to the same hemisphere. You may even look into the writing-systems to find where the descriptive and the fonetic ones have their respective dominance - historically. Lack of resources may even have favoured the minimalization of written descriptions - developing the phonetic system of runes - to save surface-material...

---

THEN its a matter of defining where the refugia - that made the caucasian mutation - actually happened... !


Edited by Boreasi - 05-Dec-2008 at 07:54
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 06:13
At the end of the western empire there wereabout 400 different languages in the area of todays France. In some regions the rootlessness and confusion were so large that neighbouring villages wold not understand eachothers tounges.

The lingua franca was established with the constitution of the Merovings - but the results didn't become aparent before the western church had established the Latin dogma - at he end of the first millenium. By then the present french was finally common all over the country - and in layers of the populations.

A similar story - with even wider ramafications - are the case with the Slavonic languages, where an Uralian language (Balto-Ugrian/Scytic) around the northern part of the Black Sea was invaded by the Greek-Roman. Around the Caspian Sea the same Uralic (Fenno-Ugrian) was invaded by Persians/Turks.  The fibulas shows clearly refers to the areas populated  by the fenno-ugric ancestry of the sar-vans, syl-vans, slo-vans. sla-vans, as well as schytians (ucrainians) and russians. The fenno-ugrian fibulaes shows a glimpse of this reality;

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/x465.pdf


The Macedon and the Anatatolian seem to have had greek roots, while  
the Kazars seem to have expaded from SE Caucasus into the old uralic Bulgars - around the Caspian Sea. This finally became the new, "slavic" Bulgars - that evidenty expanded back into their old capitol area of the Greek empire, i.e. Istanbul and Hagia Sofia. By then the influences were many - and the language-charts messy.

Thus the east-roman empire used the Bulgarian idenity to create a "lingua franca" of the east - which evidently became the "slavonic". The core of this development seem to have been the old mix of the Kazar-Bulgar cultures, from were "Slavs" seem to have migrated toward the west - finally reaching the old Macedon and Trakia - todays Bulgaria.

The new, slavic Bulgars seems to have became the core of the new, metropolitan church and identity that emerged from the ruins of the eastern empire. Persisted by the Greek-Russian church - creating the slavonic language and the cyrilian writing-system - this language seems to have spread along with the Greek church.

Florin Curta,The making of Slavs;

http://www.esnips.com/doc/c6705dfa-971c-4320-a721-c7d1a668174a/The-Making-of-the-Slavs-(2001)




Edited by Boreasi - 16-Dec-2008 at 06:14
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 10:12
The Veneti and Ancient Europe From the Point of View of Trade and Commerce
 
 
The name VENETI appears in historical documents dating back to Homer, who mentioned Eneti coming to the aid of Troy in his Iliad. By about 500BC the largest center of their activity was in northern Italy. Greek writings describe a wealthy people who were the Greek source of amber. In ancient Europe, tribes became specialized along the lines of clans and tribes, some dedicating themselves to fishing, others to farming, others to herds, etc. Clearly the Veneti were trader families and tribes, originating from among the northern boat-users, and stimulated by the valuable product amber, only found in two locations in the north - on the eastern coast of the Baltic, and the coast of the Jutland Peninsula bordering the North Sea. With the stimulus of amber trade, Finnic-speaking traders developed into intrepid traders through the riverways of Europe, following paths such as those shown in the map. (Routes along the coasts of the seas are excluded for simplicity.) With the rise of the Roman Empire, the Adriatic Veneti became Romanized. Elsewhere, they assimilated into the most useful language for their continued trading. For example the Venedi who carried goods between the Baltic, Black, and Adriatic seas, were from about the fourth century AD speaking Slavic as with the expansion of the Slavs, it was the dominant language of their customers.
 
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 12:36
VENETI WERE AUTOCHTHONOUS IN CARINTHIA
† Stjepan Pantelić
 
Before we try to answer the question as to whether the Veneti were autochthonous in Carinthia or not, we first have to answer two other questions. One of them is whether the term Veneti refers to Slavs. The other question concerns where the first traces of the Veneti were found and where their original homeland was. Only after these two questions have been answered can we talk about the Veneti in Carinthia.
Should the Veneti be considered as Slavs? Several scholars did not and do not believe that the Veneti should be considered as Slavs. The author of Vita s. Columbani (530-615) testifies to the fact that the Veneti were Slavs: "... Venetiorum qui et Sclavi disweetieur"1, which means that the Veneti referred to themselves as Slavs. Jordanes (in the 6th century) confirmed that the Veneti were Antes and Slawens.2 In another chapter, he wrote that the Veneti originated from one tribe, but they had three names, the Veneti, Antes and Slawens.3 Fredegar (in the 6th century) said that Slavs were Winedi "... Sclavi cognomento Winedi ...".4 From these sources, it follows that the Veneti were Slavs, and opponents have difficulty in proving the contrary.
With regard to the second question concerning where the first traces of the Veneti were found and where their original homeland was, several scholars believed that the Veneti were first mentioned at the time of Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy and came from the region of the lower Vistula, and they traced the original homeland of the Slavs to that area.
This is a general fallacy, since Homer mentioned the most ancient Veneti, respectively Slavs, in the 12th century BC at the time of the Trojan War. Herodotos, Euripides, Sophocles, Polibios, Strabo, and other classical writers also mentioned them later. All of them talk about the Veneti in the basin of the river Danube. Therefore, when speaking about the original homeland of Slavs, the essential question is not whether they came from the east or west or north or south, but where they came from to help Troy. Troy is the starting point to find the answer to the question of the original homeland of Slavs.
J. Å avli admitted that it was Homer who mentioned the Veneti for the first time. He quoted Homer who mentioned the Enetoi (i.e. the Veneti, resp. Slavs) in Paphlagonia on the northern coast of Asia Minor, but he did not investigate where they came to Paphlagonia from. He asked himself whether it could be true that the Veneti came from Paphlagonia to help Troy and that Antenor, their leader, led them to the northern coast of the Adriatic after their defeat and he concluded that this question could not be thoroughly investigated at that particular time.5 It is precisely this question which is of crucial importance. Several scholars failed because they considered that, in addition to the basin of the river Vistula, the oldest traces of the Veneti are to be found in Paphlagonia. But this consideration is false. The statement that the Veneti came to Troy from Paphlagonia can be found in no written source. It was stated that the Paphlagons came to Troy from the land of Venets.
In the 13th part of the Iliad, Homer says that King Pilaimen lead the Paphlagons to the Trojan war from the land of Eneti.6 Homer also says that Pilaimen was accompanied to Troy by his son Harpal and that he never returned to the land of his ancestors,7 i.e. the land of Eneti (resp. Slavs).
 
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik01/htm/pantelic.htm
 
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/PAI_PAS/PAPHLAGONIA.html
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 12:40
 

VENETI:  ANCESTORS OF SLAVS

by Pavel V. Toulaev
Moscow, Russia

The core of the discussion around the Veneti (Enetoi, Venethi, Vendi) is in the answer to the question of whether they had been Slavs or not.  Western scholars, Germans and Italians in particular, believe that Veneti having ancient roots, had not been Slavs, since the latter stepped on the historic stage only in the VI-th century A.D., when they took part in the destruction of the Roman Empire and got onto the pages of the Byzantine chronicles.  The majority of the Slavic authors tend to regard Veneti as their ancient ancestors, although this point of view is not always well-grounded and is not shared by all scholars.

On the basis of historic facts and conclusions in scientific literature we can reconstruct in more detail the picture of the Venetic world starting from ancient times.  Chronologically it may be divided into the following major stages.

Before 1200 B.C., the data of the Trojan War, the Enetoi, mentioned by Homerus [Homer] and later by Strabon [Strabo] and other ancient authors, lived in Troas [city/area near ancient Troy] and Paphlagonia.  They descend to Dardanus [Dardanelles or Hellespont], Ilus [Ilium or Troy] and Pilemen which manifested itself in the contacts of the Western regions of Asia Minor with Thracia and Illyria.

After the collapse of Troy and the Hittite Empire the Enetoi headed by Antenor first moved to Thracia and then to the northern coast of the Adriatic.  The fellow-tribesmen of Enei (Aineias)[Aeneas], the main hero of the "Eneide" [Aeneid] by Vergilius [Vergil] and the legendary founder of Rome, colonized the western part of the Apennine peninsula.  The civilization of Ethruscs [Etruscans] also appeared in that area.  At the same time there was a migration of Paphlagonian Enetoi to Urartu, which comprised the Kingdom of Van.

 
http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/ToulaevAncestors.html
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Jams View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 06-Sep-2006
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 352
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 12:58

This seems quite strange. Nenets also use the designation Saame in some cases. Sámi, Suomi, and the Nenets version are pretty much the same word.

Remember, Sámi were actually called Finns too, not Sámi in the past.

I wonder if there really is any linguistic connection between words just because they're spelled the same in the Latin alphabet. I doubt it very much.  In the case above it's not the spelling, but the pronunciation that matters.
The first post and the title of this thread is very confusing, - is this a split from another thread, and if so, which?
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 13:16
It's always the consent of pronounciation that substaniate a living word.
Our signs, syllables and letters are all academic efforts, made to refer each and every sound of a spoken language as clear and complete as possible... 


Edited by Boreasi - 16-Mar-2009 at 13:58
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Jams View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 06-Sep-2006
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 352
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 20:08
Not really, just look at Welsh. There are historical reasons behind everything. The same Latin letters are assigned to different sounds, just think of C, CH. Not to mention Y, which is a consonant sound in English, but not here.
This reminds me of the old ghoti = fish thing.
 
But still, I wish I could see the original posts before these, where are they at?
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 07:45
Historically we have various writing-systems of different categories and qualites, such as pictograms, logograms, syllograms or phonograms. But, whatever sign-form we have we still don't think that the writing came first - before their respective spoken languages - do we...?
 
In diuscussing the developnt and USE of these various systems we obviously have to link into their respective context and history - of course. 
 
They are all created to assign specific semantic expressions - that be words, syllables or (clear) sounds. HOW these various systems - like runes and letters - are USED to reflect the specific SOUNDS of their respctive languages are then another matter. The development and refinement of phonemic alphabeths have been one of the most challenging and rewarding processes in the cultural development of modern civilization...
 
According to Andrew Robinson (1996) the common alphabeths have still some way to go before they actually cover all the sounds inherrent in their respective languages.  The most complicated pictograms, such as the Chinese, still have the largest problems with incorporating the correct phonemes. An even larger challenge with pictograms and sylligrams are the volumnious amount of signs thats nessecary to learn... 

 

The phonetic alphabeths, limited to only 25-35 signs, are obviously a great progress in that way, but he challenge here is to get the optimal "sound-value" into each sign - in order to reflect the sounds of the spoken language - as effective and correct as possible. (The number of clear sounds - vocals - is one important indicator...)
 
Measuring "phonografic quality" - as the correspondance between spelling and pronounciation and vice verca - Robnson (et al) place the Chinese at lowest end of the scale, closely followed by Japaneese and Korean. Well above 60 % (coverage of spoken language) we find the English alphabeth and the French reach a proxy of 70 %. Modern Bulgarian and Turkish is said to be even better and, remarkably, we find the Finnish phonemes on top - with a unique proxy of 85 % correspondance...
 
 
---
 
The original post was "Ancient Poland" whose history aligns - to some's surprise - with the Vistula Venetis as well as the Fenno-Ugrians...
 
 
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 17-Mar-2009 at 10:07
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Jams View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 06-Sep-2006
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 352
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 18:49
85%? Well, that seems practical, at least. Thanks for the link.  I see that the issue was already adressed there somewhat.

Edited by Jams - 18-Mar-2009 at 18:53
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.062 seconds.