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Svyturys View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svyturys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 09:52
1605 Kircholm. 4 000 soldiers from Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth(mostly from Grand Duchy of Lithuania) crushed 14 000 of swedish.
Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 10:25
Originally posted by Svyturys Svyturys wrote:

1605 Kircholm. 4 000 soldiers from Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth(mostly from Grand Duchy of Lithuania) crushed 14 000 of swedish.
 
It's a great battle indeed. But I have an impression, that most of Lithuanians don't recognize this battle as their vistory. Is my impression correct? Over a year ago was the 400th anniversary of that battle. AFAIK it wasn't celebrated by Lithuanians.


Edited by ataman - 02-Jan-2007 at 10:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 11:10
Originally posted by Mordoth Mordoth wrote:

Right...
I love to do every of jobs in the shortest time and overwhelm 'em all easily .
That's why i love the Battle of MOHAC at where the Magyar army is disbanded and defeated approximately 2 hours .
 
 
Hi !
 
 Yes, that is rightConfused...
 
But don't forget, the hungarians were 25000, and the ottomans 80-120000.
 
And: some thousend of hungarian knights smashed the whole rumelian spahi force before the janissars and topchiks got them...
 
It was an awfull hungarian campaign but the battle plan was curios. (If somebody wants, I'll write it)
 
My favorite is the first siege of Eger. 2500 hungarians defended succesful the fortess against 70-100 000 turks in 1552. (but the turks occupied nearly a dozent castles before in that year)
 
It's a wonder that our state is still standing. Thanks to our fortesses.:-)
 
VIVÁT DOBÓ!!!
 
The first and the second battle of Cosovo Polje were nice things too. They each took 2-3 days long. In the second the from nearly all alianced states betrayed hungarian powers (15 000 men) fought in a wagon-fortess with the ottomans(they were much more) on days and nights. The otoman units could take a rest, the fewer hungarians not. We lost, certenly. Just imagine: 3 days long close fighting man against man. Not like f. e. an english unit with maxims and enfields agains sudanians or zulus with lances.
 
But the leader János Hunyadi was a genius.
 
TSZ


Edited by Tar Szerénd - 02-Jan-2007 at 11:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 19:08
Favourite battles
battle of stalingrad
battle of leningrad
battle of issus
battle of zama
battle of kosovo
battle of plataea
300
Um caruje, Snaga klade valja
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 05:20
 As a former tank commander my favorite battle  is The battle of Cambrai 1917.  It was the first battle in which tanks were used properly and their worth proven (even though the battle petered out into a stalemate).
 
This battle was instramental in bringing to an end the slaughter of "trench warfare" in WWI
 
The colours of the British Royal Tank Regiment  say it all
BROWN, RED, GREEN,
 
Through the mud and the blood to the green fields beyond.


Edited by aghart - 11-Jan-2007 at 18:00
Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svyturys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 16:06
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

Originally posted by Svyturys Svyturys wrote:

1605 Kircholm. 4 000 soldiers from Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth(mostly from Grand Duchy of Lithuania) crushed 14 000 of swedish.
 
It's a great battle indeed. But I have an impression, that most of Lithuanians don't recognize this battle as their vistory. Is my impression correct? Over a year ago was the 400th anniversary of that battle. AFAIK it wasn't celebrated by Lithuanians.
 
For lithuanians somewhy that battle isn't very known..They recognize it as victory of them, but don't celebrate, only some conferences. Actually we don't celebrate even Grunwald battle as it worth. I can't understand why.. somewho wants to destroy our pride. I can't really explain why such a battles like Orsha and Kircholm are absolutely forgotten.
How about celebrations in your country?


Edited by Svyturys - 11-Jan-2007 at 16:07
Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 17:04
Though Lithuanians and Latvians celebrate battle of Saule/Sauliai 1236 as part of Baltic unity day.

Battles of Orsha and Kircholm didn't had any major events after them, maybe that's why. They weren't decisive battles like for example battle of Grunwald 1410 which had major power balance shift in favor for Lithuanian - Polish alliance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 18:15
Originally posted by Svyturys Svyturys wrote:

How about celebrations in your country?
 
Nothing, about any battle. It's more or less considered racist...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 02:15
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Svyturys Svyturys wrote:

How about celebrations in your country?
 
Nothing, about any battle. It's more or less considered racist...
 
It's strange. IMO so called 'Western Europe' is too political correct, don't you think? What is wrong to celebrate victories of own country?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 02:43
Originally posted by Svyturys Svyturys wrote:

For lithuanians somewhy that battle isn't very known..They recognize it as victory of them, but don't celebrate, only some conferences. Actually we don't celebrate even Grunwald battle as it worth. I can't understand why.. somewho wants to destroy our pride. I can't really explain why such a battles like Orsha and Kircholm are absolutely forgotten.
 
I hope it will change.
 
Originally posted by Svyturys Svyturys wrote:

How about celebrations in your country?
 
Well, there were some celebrations at Kircholm with delegates from Polish embassy and with Polish scouts, who arrived to Kircholm from Poland by canoes.
Anyway, the Poles celebrate much more these battles, which are in modern territory of Poland. For example Grunwald - every year there are stagings of the battle.  There are 3000-6000 reenactors (knights) and usually about 60-100.000 tourists.
In our times celebrations are conected with reenacting. Almost every town or city which has in its history any battle, tries to make its own staging. It helps to appeal tourists Wink (BTW, Styrbiorn, you can visit Gniew to see 'the battle' between Gustaw Adolf's army and the Poles Smile)
Some anniversaries are celebreted more serious. In 2005 was the 350th anniversary of siege of Polish monastery Jasna Gora. I remember that there was a proffesional staging made by Polish actors. It was transmited by Polish TV.


Edited by ataman - 12-Jan-2007 at 02:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 03:05
Originally posted by axeman axeman wrote:


Battles of Orsha and Kircholm didn't had any major events after them, maybe that's why.
 
But these battles are interesting for other reasons. The battle of Orsha 1514 was one of the biggest (or maybe the biggest?) battle in 16th c. Europe.
The battle of Kircholm 1605 is interesting thanks to disproportion of forces (3:1 for the Swedes) and thanks to the meeting of 2 different manners of fighting - cavalry with long lances (I mean hussars) vs pikes+shots.
 
It is interesting, because 16th c. was (in Western Europe) the time, when knighthood finally lost its old status of 'dominator'. The combination pike+shot won in Western Europe. Kircholm is the example that this combination pike+shot wasn't superrior to lancers - even if pikes+shots outnumbered lancers many times.


Edited by ataman - 12-Jan-2007 at 03:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 04:33
A battle that is often overlooked on such things, although undoubtedly one of the most brilliant feats by a besieged army in military history, the Siege of Tobruk in the year 1941.

The small town was captured by Australian and to a much lesser extent, British forces in January. Sappers preceded the advance, crawling into no-mans land to disarm mines and clear a path for the assault. When the assault came, it met little resistance from the Italian forces. 49 Australians were killed in the battle, while 27,000 Italians soldiers were captured, despite the Italian general refusing to order all-out surrender. This was to be the easy part, as Australians would make their home here for over 10 months.

It was in early April that Rommel's Panzers were first spotted, and the attack was to follow shortly. The small Australian garrison, lead by general Morshead, was ordered to hold the town for 8 weeks against the undefeated German army, led by the seemingly invincible Desert Fox. The Australians would still hold the town 8 months later.

The battle was first engaged with a German advance. The Australians hurriedly prepared the two pieces of anti-tank weaponry they posessed, captured from the original Italian garrison. The leading enemy armoured vehicles were engaged, and within minutes the leading General on the field, von Prittwitz, was killed when an Australian gunner singled out his armoured car and destroyed it with the first shot.

The German forces fell into disarray and promptly retreated. The supply road to Cairo, however, was cut off and the city was besieged. Sappers and engineers quickly went to work establishing mine fields and impromptu defences. Communication lines and runner networks were established. All this happened on Good Friday.

In the first major assault the Germans sent 1100 men and a panzer regiment against one sector of the Australian defence. Despite being massively out-gunned, at the end of the day 5 panzers were destroyed and hundreds of Germans killed. One Australian died that day. The men of the Australian 9th and 7th divisions at Tobruk became known as the Rats of Tobruk by the Germans. A name they embraced with pride. A "rat of tobruk" medal was even forged from metal from a downed German bomber, destroyed by captured German guns.

Tobruk was the first time in World War 2 the German land advance had been halted, by a small Garrison in a tiny town on the African coast. Ill-equipped and relying on supply by sea, which proved to be unreliable at best, the indomitable spirit of the defenders meant that when the Australia forces were finally withdrawn to face the new threat in New Guinea, the city was still in Allied hands.
Straw Man - a weak or sham argument
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 05:03
Brilliant post there Zaitsev. Though I wonder if this was really the first time the Allies had decisively stopped the Germans on land. If so, it would add to the accomplishment of Australians in being the first Western Allied nation to have defeated the Japanese decisively on land - which of course was at Kokoda.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 05:13
The Aussies are bloody tenacious in battle, for a country that happily doesn't have a militarist culture they raise up good fighters and fought some great battles.

gallipoli
beersheba (Ok not a big battle but i like cavalry)
tobruk
kokoda
long tan

the main ones from the top of my head.


Edited by Leonidas - 12-Jan-2007 at 05:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 05:44
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

The Aussies are bloody tenacious in battle, for a country that happily doesn't have a militarist culture they raise up good fighters and fought some great battles.


A good point there about the lack of militarism in Australia. I think the tenacity and battle ethos of the Aussie troops is drawn from the "battler" spirit which was a response to the tough pioneering years and struggles with the fickleness of nature. Thankfully this ethos does not translate in the authoritarian tendencies which we see in many other societies with a more defined  and ingrained military ethic.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 08:43
battle of carrahe. Surena has beaten the Romans and their famous comandor Crasus with a much smaller army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 09:31
Originally posted by sirius99 sirius99 wrote:

battle of carrahe. Surena has beaten the Romans and their famous comandor Crasus with a much smaller army.
 
This is my favourite battle of ancient times Smile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 11:36
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

Originally posted by axeman axeman wrote:


Battles of Orsha and Kircholm didn't had any major events after them, maybe that's why.
 
But these battles are interesting for other reasons. The battle of Orsha 1514 was one of the biggest (or maybe the biggest?) battle in 16th c. Europe.
The battle of Kircholm 1605 is interesting thanks to disproportion of forces (3:1 for the Swedes) and thanks to the meeting of 2 different manners of fighting - cavalry with long lances (I mean hussars) vs pikes+shots.
 
It is interesting, because 16th c. was (in Western Europe) the time, when knighthood finally lost its old status of 'dominator'. The combination pike+shot won in Western Europe. Kircholm is the example that this combination pike+shot wasn't superrior to lancers - even if pikes+shots outnumbered lancers many times.


Well speaking about Kircholm it has always puzzled me, how long were the lances of Polish hussars and the pikes of Swedish infantrymen?
This battle seems to be illogical with its results. There should have been done awful errors by Swedish command to let that happen.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 11:45
Originally posted by axeman axeman wrote:


Well speaking about Kircholm it has always puzzled me, how long were the lances of Polish hussars and the pikes of Swedish infantrymen?
 
The length of lances - about 6,2m
The length of pikes - almost 6m
 
Originally posted by axeman axeman wrote:


This battle seems to be illogical with its results. There should have been done awful errors by Swedish command to let that happen.
 
Can you explain your point of view?


Edited by ataman - 12-Jan-2007 at 11:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 16:38
Originally posted by axeman axeman wrote:

Well speaking about Kircholm it has always puzzled me, how long were the lances of Polish hussars and the pikes of Swedish infantrymen?
This battle seems to be illogical with its results. There should have been done awful errors by Swedish command to let that happen.

 
The Swedish pikes were as far as I know not yet standardized so it's hard to tell how long they were. About 45% of the Swedish infantry were equipped with pikes or halberds.
 
It's not illogical, but yes, there were awful errors by the Swedish command that was the major reason to the slaughter. One awful error by the king to be precise. Despite vivid protests from his generals, the more or less battle-incompetent king Karl XI gave order to not only change formation but also leave its very easily defensible positions, a move that literally transformed the Swedish infantry into a bunch of sitting ducks for the Polish cavalry. Add to that, when the Swedish cavalry were routed by the superior Polish, they hacked through and routed parts of its own infantry: sections of the right and the entire left wing, whereupon the disarrayed pikemen and musketeers were attacked and slaughtered by the pursuing Polish cavalrymen.
All in all, it was the worst defeat ever for a Swedish army, 7602 men (3948 confirmed, the rest calculated) out of 10868.*
 
 
 
 
*The exact numbers are due to the fact the Mobilization Roll from the day before the battle has survived. 


Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Jan-2007 at 17:34
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