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    Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 01:48
Ever since the advent of humanity there has been "religion", the belief in "god", of a "creater", an all powerfull being. Humans bury their dead, have rituals and various forms of worship.
 
As Jellaledin Rumi said
 
The lamps are different, but the light is the same.”
 
There are many different forms and intepretations but common among humans is the concept of religion and faith.
 
Is this proof that their is a "creater"? or that humans have some form of belief built into them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 03:21

several animals express characteristics that many would consider unique to humans (self awareness, learning complex behaviors, etc). But I think spiritual awareness is probably the only thing that actually is unique.

I don't think that this is adequate to prove the existence of a creator, but maybe it could be viewed as a primary contributer to our cerebral, cognitive and cultural evolution... or possibly a product thereof.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 15:46
It doesn't prove the existence of a creator.
 
It arises from the overwhelming human desire to discover/invent causes for everything.
 
It's the baby in us always asking 'why'. Ermm
 
Actually from observing cats and dogs and other higher animals I think they also look for causes too, though not so deeply. But I agree that may be just anthropomorphising on my part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 23:08
Your right in that it doesnt scientifically proove the existance of a creator, however, it is interesting even the most remote human societies have a notion of religion, spirituality and the belief in a creator.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 11:31
It is interesting, yes. I just proffer the theory that we are hard-wired to look for causes for things, and we invent them if necessary. What we don't instinctively like is the thought that things happen purely from chance.
 
And we also don't like the idea that we are not, in one way or another, special.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:28

You make a strong point, we do have a curious nature however, we all somehow came to the conclusion of belief in a creater, some form of spirituality and other worlds.

Also the ability to think we are special is in itself remarkable, being able to reason and debate is unique to us on Earth.
 
I guess while some of us like to think were special there are others who feel the opposite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 16:41
I don't think everybody eventually decides there is a creator. Also, spirituality has nothing to do with religion or god, though the former claims it's monopoly.
The ability to think is remarkable indeed, but only for ourselves. I bet the Sun is not very impressed. Oh, wait! It can't be! It doesn't think! Or maybe we are just unable to reason and debate with a star. So, our remarkable ability still needs some improving. We are just being our narcisists selves: "I can't help to be awed of how remarkable I am. I'm modest too! I know I'm not God! But I also know He created this world for me, I was made alike Him, and I'm going to heaven.". Somebody should really built that Terminator chip! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 17:00
I agree that spiritual cognition can exist without formal religion or a belief in god(s). But, there's something special about our recognition of spirituality; something unique to humans. i.e. innate abilities to dance, play music, express cultural significance... all these have ties of some sort to this higher level of cognition... whether or not we call it 'religion' or even 'spirituallity'...  
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 21:05
Quote Cezar
I don't think everybody eventually decides there is a creator. Also, spirituality has nothing to do with religion or god, though the former claims it's monopoly.
 
Spirituality has connations with the "spiritual world", trying to understand the "unknown", the other "worlds".
 
Most ancient spiritual movements are tied to some form of belief in a creater.
 
Quote Cezar
The ability to think is remarkable indeed, but only for ourselves. I bet the Sun is not very impressed. Oh, wait! It can't be! It doesn't think! Or maybe we are just unable to reason and debate with a star. So, our remarkable ability still needs some improving.
 
As humans we can debate whether the Sun and other stars can communicate or not and try to proove it, this is remarkable, its not the ability that needs improving its our understanding and utilisation of it.
 
 
Quote Cezar
We are just being our narcisists selves: "I can't help to be awed of how remarkable I am. I'm modest too! I know I'm not God! But I also know He created this world for me, I was made alike Him, and I'm going to heaven."
 
There are two possibilities.
 
There is heaven
 
There isn't heaven
 
We'll all find out one day, untill then I'll respect either perspectives opinions, its all a matter of faith to believe or to believe not to believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 22:56
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

I We are just being our narcisists selves: "I can't help to be awed of how remarkable I am. I'm modest too! I know I'm not God! But I also know He created this world for me, I was made alike Him, and I'm going to heaven.". Somebody should really built that Terminator chip! 
 
This is what many people think, yes, but I know that in Christianity, although it is the most predominant thought, that is not what is said in the Bible. Instead one reason people dont like the Bible is because it plays humanity as a failure, and then us worse. (Humanity failure in the Garden of Eden, and then our personal "sin" failures in our own lives) It never says that those who are "saved" are better, nor are those that would go to heaven are better than those that would go to Hell. The reason there is the separation is because there would be those who do know God, and thus are friends with Him and are invited to his kingdom, and those who do not know Him and are not invited in because of that.
 
"What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is writen: There is no one righteous, not even one;... All have turned away, they have together become worthless." (Romans 3:9-12, NIV)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 07:25
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Spirituality has connations with the "spiritual world", trying to understand the "unknown", the other "worlds".
Mathematics is then the top of spirituality.
Quote  
Most ancient spiritual movements are tied to some form of belief in a creater.
So what? Does that mean we should stick to our ancient knowledge? Is "ancient spirituality" something we should depend on?
Quote
As humans we can debate whether the Sun and other stars can communicate or not and try to proove it, this is remarkable, its not the ability that needs improving its our understanding and utilisation of it.
The first improvement should be not to think of this ability as being remarkable.
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There are two possibilities.
There is heaven
There isn't heaven
We'll all find out one day, untill then I'll respect either perspectives opinions, its all a matter of faith to believe or to believe not to believe.
I don't understand how you related this with what I've stated. I was just saying that religious faith is a form of narcisisim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 07:42
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

I We are just being our narcisists selves: "I can't help to be awed of how remarkable I am. I'm modest too! I know I'm not God! But I also know He created this world for me, I was made alike Him, and I'm going to heaven.". Somebody should really built that Terminator chip! 
 
This is what many people think, yes, but I know that in Christianity, although it is the most predominant thought, that is not what is said in the Bible. Instead one reason people dont like the Bible is because it plays humanity as a failure, and then us worse. (Humanity failure in the Garden of Eden, and then our personal "sin" failures in our own lives) It never says that those who are "saved" are better, nor are those that would go to heaven are better than those that would go to Hell. The reason there is the separation is because there would be those who do know God, and thus are friends with Him and are invited to his kingdom, and those who do not know Him and are not invited in because of that.
 
"What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is writen: There is no one righteous, not even one;... All have turned away, they have together become worthless." (Romans 3:9-12, NIV)
First, the whole Christian basis, OT especially, is nothing but a collection of tales of murder, genocide, fratricide and other nice things like that. I bet that if someone never heard of it orwould consider Meink Kampf mild propaganda compared to the holly scriptures. Faith is based on the conservation instinct. An earthworm will avoid fire. Fire is to it a perfect God. The level of "spirituality" of the worm is not sufficient to make it comprehend the combustion. Some ancient beliefs were actually worshiping fire as a God. Why worshiping something to be afraid of? How many times is mentioned God to be feared in the holly books? Why should we love Him since He is to be feared? Is "faith" some kind of S&M?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 11:53
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

There are two possibilities.
 
There is heaven
 
There isn't heaven
Those aren't the only two possibilities. There's reincarnation for a start. There's also Hades which is neither heaven nor hell nor extinction.
 
And there are many varieties of 'heaven'.
 
Quote
We'll all find out one day,
Or not, as the case may be Smile
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untill then I'll respect either perspectives opinions, its all a matter of faith to believe or to believe not to believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 14:50
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

Why worshiping something to be afraid of? How many times is mentioned God to be feared in the holly books? Why should we love Him since He is to be feared? Is "faith" some kind of S&M?
 
But yet my faith is not based on feart at all. The "Fear of God" that is referred to in the OT is a respect for God, not a fear that is instinctual because your afraid of that being.
 
You mentioned that all stories in the OT are about genocide and murder and the such, yet in written history we have the Holocaust and the Third Reichs mass murder of Jews under hitler, yet we know that it happened. Purely because it is in written history does not mean that it did not happen. All of these "myths" are handed down through oral history, yes, but also notice that in the OT all of the geneologies are mentioned, and the names of the father of, father of, father of, ect.. are written down. This is the oral history of a people, the Jews, and they would have been sure to write such things down carefully.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 16:05
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble.
 
But in what language?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 02:51
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble.
 
But in what language?
 
Speaking of DNA and the irregular sequence that was used to form the "words" needed for life Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 22:06
Do we know that all religions have a creator? It's believed that the first spiritual movements of early man were just based on a after life and nothing more. Not a heaven or hell, but a continuation on with life in another form. I think the oldest tomb/grave is just rocks formed around the body with the one at the head having a hole to allow the spirit out, though they can only guess on that.
 
Also, what about the idea of multiple gods? Insn't there a theory that early religion first evolved with multiple gods? Each one seemed to explain something different?
 
I think like everything else in human history, religion slowly evolved into more complex and stronger meanings. To this day it still changes. It was just adding faces to the unexplained, making it more understandable to us even if it was incorrect. Overtime story was added, and we end up with what we have now, and it's still not the end product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 02:10
Quote Gcle
Those aren't the only two possibilities. There's reincarnation for a start. There's also Hades which is neither heaven nor hell nor extinction.
 
And there are many varieties of 'heaven'.
 
The concept of reincarnation includes heaven aswell, we reincarnate untill we reach a spiritual level high enough to enter as the Hindus call "Loka".
 
There are different interpretations of "heaven" but they share a common point which is being another world.
 
 
Quote SearchandDestroy
I think the oldest tomb/grave is just rocks formed around the body with the one at the head having a hole to allow the spirit out, though they can only guess on that.
 
The concept of "burial" is interesting in itself.
 
Why have we always had burial rights?
 
 
Quote Cezar
Mathematics is then the top of spirituality.
 
Everything in existance is connected to spirituality if you have faith in the creater as the creater created everything when there was once nothing.
 
Quote Cezar
So what? Does that mean we should stick to our ancient knowledge? Is "ancient spirituality" something we should depend on?
 
You missed my point, which is not that we shouldn't just stick to ancient knoweldge but instead trying to understand why humans have since their creation had "faith".
 
 
Quote Cezar
Why worshiping something to be afraid of? How many times is mentioned God to be feared in the holly books? Why should we love Him since He is to be feared? Is "faith" some kind of S&M?
 
Why should the creater be feared?
 
There are many people who love the creater.
 
Also love can create fear but a different kind of fear, you fear that you may upset your mother but love your mother like nothing else in the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 06:04
Quote Why have we always had burial rights?


I would assume it has to do sometimes with hygiene I mean you can't have rotting corpses in the middle of cities. Also it has to do with respect, I mean you don't want your mother or your child being ripped apart by a ravenous jackal and have to walk past the carnage while hunting. Putting them in the ground keeps their decomposition out of sight.

A lot of cultures don't bury their dead though. Many cremate their dead, for the same reasons as burial, and some cultures, Tibetans, Zoroastrians and a few American Indians practice what is called 'sky burial'. Where a corpse is exposed to the elements in a "graveyard" set away from everything else. This is done in areas usually where it is difficult to get fuel for cremation or the soil is too difficult to dig a deep enough grave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 07:53
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Quote Cezar
Mathematics is then the top of spirituality.
 
Everything in existance is connected to spirituality if you have faith in the creater as the creater created everything when there was once nothing.
Then if I don't have faith I totally lack spirituality?
Quote
Quote Cezar
So what? Does that mean we should stick to our ancient knowledge? Is "ancient spirituality" something we should depend on?
 You missed my point, which is not that we shouldn't just stick to ancient knoweldge but instead trying to understand why humans have since their creation had "faith".
First, what's that about humans creation? You think we were created? Then, what faith? Maybe you say that ancient people worshiped nature. Again I see it as a side result of conservation instinct. They were trying to avoid being harmed.
Quote
Quote Cezar
Why worshiping something to be afraid of? How many times is mentioned God to be feared in the holly books? Why should we love Him since He is to be feared? Is "faith" some kind of S&M?
 
Why should the creater be feared?
 
There are many people who love the creater.
 
Also love can create fear but a different kind of fear, you fear that you may upset your mother but love your mother like nothing else in the world.
[/quote]
The creator is not my mother. My mother and my father created me.
And what are you trying to say, that faith is the result of a psychological derailment? A person who though grown up still feels the need of parental love?
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