History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedEurope as it should be

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Status: Offline
Points: 2127
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Europe as it should be
    Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 08:01


Europe as it should be: 300 nations together, one for all and all for one!
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Status: Offline
Points: 4496
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 09:20
A map would be better.....tongue
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Frederick Roger View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Jan-2005
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 661
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 11:05
Originally posted by Spartakus Spartakus wrote:

A map would be better.....tongue
 
I always liked this one:
 
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 15:10
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:



Europe as it should be: 300 nations together, one for all and all for one!
 
At first glance this looked like a Habsburg cadet-branch coat of arms, but even they didn't make that many marriages.  Smile
 
                                                          *************
 
Europe as it should be is not Europe as it is.  Since the 1940s Europe has become another zone of geopolitical competition, still important once rebuilt, but otherwise not unlike east Asia or the Persian Gulf.
 
Since the French Revolution, the inter-state history of Europe had been dominated by two things;  First, containing the "Revolution" after 1815, (France) and second, containing the perception of hegemony on the continent after 1871 (Germany). 
 
While Russia and the New World remained on the periphery, that was possible and reasonable.  After the demise of Europe as the geopolitical center of the world (1914-45), Europe became a zone of competition between unassailable land power (USSR), and untouchable sea power (US). 
 
It seems reasonable to view Europe, geopolitically, as unchanged in that role.
 
 
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Status: Offline
Points: 2127
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 19:53
Pike I exactly agree with you, all too often Europe has been divided, each one of its countries being a mere card in the games of the real player.

Dividing Europe in smaller entities would change that. I mean France, England or Spain are nearly irrelevant geopolitically, but the little relevance they preserve make them behave foolishly.

If Corsica, Devon and the Basque Country were independent, it is unlikely they'd try to use the same types of tactics as the European nations are doing nowadays. On the contrary, they'd be forced to unite when it comes to defense matters as well as many foreign policy ones.

That would be a chance for a united Europe, a real actor rather than a pitch were others fight. It would also change the relationship with Russia that could not use one country against the other any more and would be forced to become a partner rather than an unfriendly neighbour.
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 23:28
As far as global geopolitics, Europe, as NATO partners, could be a factor, but they have historically been reluctant to bear very much of the burden or the cost.  Still, their most vital interests lie closer to home. 
 
The states you mentioned all have geopolitical concerns where their regional vital interests lie.  All three have security concerns related to uncontrolled immigration from the Maghreb (Spain/France) and west Africa (UK).  All have strategic concerns that combine the possibility of failed states in northern Africa with armaments technology and delivery systems that are more widely available now.  That has not been demonstrated yet, but is possible in future....Libya had a nuclear program after all.
 
It is not generally recognized, but the NATO states of the Mediterranean littoral are modernizing and expanding naval and marine assault forces to address the possibility of intervention if needed.  They are not doing so for conquest, and Italian, French, Spanish and British aircraft carriers entering service or being modernized are not, IMO, "prestige" showpieces.  As an example, with their specific geopolitical logic extending down the long coast of west Africa, and onto the offshore island chains, Spain has marine infantry forces twice the size of the Royal Marines.
 
While partnership and cooperation are to be preferred, it appears that, since the end of the bipolar Cold War, and developments in the new century there is beginning a new arms race with China, Russia and India strengthening both the force and the reach of their armed forces.  Traditional adversaries, client states, or aspiring players, will follow suit.  So far, this has been on a regional bases, where vital interests lie.  NATO members are doing the same.
 
The US will, therefore, never see that "peace dividend" predicted in the 1990s, nor will Europe, and frankly, with concepts of power, and human nature, being what they are, neither will anyone else. 
 
The more geopolitical poles; the more players; the more problems.  Modernization and development lead to increased demand, to rising expectations and to irresistable pressures on areas of this planet where demand and expectations might be satisfied.
 
Rather gloomy, I am afraid.  Unhappy
 
  
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Status: Offline
Points: 2127
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 00:47
I don't think it is that gloomy (Maghrebi countries have no chance to become failed states).

When it comes to defense tho you are perfectly right, Europe is a dwarf with severe bipolar disorder.

I mean not only are Euro forces smaller but they are also less efficient (old material, less soldiers on the ground and more logistical personnel than the US army, etc.).

That is one of the main reasons why a core group of countries have to create an European army. Some countries may be more reluctant than others but I don't see why the German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch and Belgian armies couldn't be merged, they have rather similar materials, some spend more than others but that could be solved on the long run, and there would be massive savings to be done!


I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Status: Offline
Points: 2127
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 01:32
Here is the map


I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Status: Offline
Points: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 20:33
Thanks for incorporating the Scandinavia-Baltic area..

But put seriously, if the outer states would support the larger realms financially in defense then they would have to defend the lesser ones - much more efficient than the current rather incomprehensible defense plans (what's it, someone has to defend for two months before NATO helps?)
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Status: Offline
Points: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 19:16
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

Pike I exactly agree with you, all too often Europe has been divided, each one of its countries being a mere card in the games of the real player.

Dividing Europe in smaller entities would change that. I mean France, England or Spain are nearly irrelevant geopolitically, but the little relevance they preserve make them behave foolishly.

If Corsica, Devon and the Basque Country were independent, it is unlikely they'd try to use the same types of tactics as the European nations are doing nowadays. On the contrary, they'd be forced to unite when it comes to defense matters as well as many foreign policy ones.

That would be a chance for a united Europe, a real actor rather than a pitch were others fight. It would also change the relationship with Russia that could not use one country against the other any more and would be forced to become a partner rather than an unfriendly neighbour.


completely agree with this! ClapClapClap

i actually had a similar idea like this before, the difference is not creatign so many miniature principalities based on the feudalistic dynasties but actual historic regions that share same culture & language.
Back to Top
Donasin View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 107
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 19:20
The way for Europe to be a major player is to unite and that is being done in the EU. The more centralized the EU is the more vital a role Europe will play in world affairs. This may push Russia away but there is few things that would strengthen the bulk of Europe that would not push Russia way.

On the matter of defense you can hardly call the larger states in Europe large when compared to many other nations. With all the technology we have out our disposale; faster than sound travel, highway systems, etc, if a nation the size of say France or Spain can't defend itself then there is something seriously wrong with their defense department.

Besides if we start things such as Normandy nationalism radicals would want parts of England. No matter how you would draw the map balkanization would occur. The current situation in Europe is very stable outside of the Balkans and pushing this agenda through would just bring ruin the peace Europe has had since the end of Berlin Air Lift.


Edited by Donasin - 01-Jul-2008 at 19:42
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Status: Offline
Points: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 19:57
Originally posted by Donasin Donasin wrote:

The way for Europe to be a major player is to unite and that is being done in the EU. The more centralized the EU is the more vital a role Europe will play in world affairs. This may push Russia away but there is few things that would strengthen the bulk of Europe that would not push Russia way.


push Russia away? the EU is not Nazi Germany... and centralization is reserved for the evil empires, real democracies are decentralized.

Quote On the matter of defense you can hardly call the larger states in Europe large when compared to many other nations. With all the technology we have out our disposale; faster than sound travel, highway systems, etc, if a nation the size of say France or Spain can't defend itself then there is something seriously wrong with their defense department.


most of europe is in the NATO, so why should European countries waste money on defense while the highly modern and large US Army protects us? why should europe arm up anyways, who is europe's enemy?

Quote Besides if we start things such as Normandy nationalism radicals would want parts of England. No matter how you would draw the map balkanization would occur. The current situation in Europe is very stable outside of the Balkans and pushing this agenda through would just bring ruin the peace Europe has had since the end of Berlin Air Lift.


there was no balkanization in switzerland and switzerland is a confederacy since the high middle ages and there was only one civil war (based on religion) if you don't include the chaos in the wake of the French Revolution. and switzerland has 4 different ethnicites that peacefully co-existed ever since.
Back to Top
Donasin View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 107
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 20:14
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:


push Russia away? the EU is not Nazi Germany... and centralization is reserved for the evil empires, real democracies are decentralized.


By centralization I mean having at least a base control over the area. Federalism would be a better word, my mistake.

Quote most of europe is in the NATO, so why should European countries waste money on defense while the highly modern and large US Army protects us? why should europe arm up anyways, who is europe's enemy?


Europe doesn't have an enemy at the moment but I am merely saying that the current system of states can defend themselves and a unified Europe would have no problem doing so. Confederacies often fail to defend themselves well, case and point the CSA. States would hold supplies to 'protect their rights' while the national army hardly had enough shoes for their men.
Also NATO is an alliance its not a shield maybe the US could start working its way out of debt if more people saw it as sucg.

Quote there was no balkanization in switzerland and switzerland is a confederacy since the high middle ages and there was only one civil war (based on religion) if you don't include the chaos in the wake of the French Revolution. and switzerland has 4 different ethnicites that peacefully co-existed ever since.


But there is also high Swiss nationalism which overrides the different ethic groups. The threat of adding more ethnic groups (African immigration) is bringing this out in the nation.
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 1028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 22:10
European states shouldn't break until there is a true European state.
When there is a European state, and a european conciousness, then you can create smaller federal states. However I do not see the reason. EU has already divided it self into NUTS regions. NUTS I are the states, NUTS II are the provinces, NUTS III are the municipalities. Perhaps some national states such as the Basque country could be created but breaking every country into tiny federal states, because they have different dialects, isn't really a good idea. After all, a different dialect doesn't constitute a nation.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
Tyranos View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 22:49
Europe to me should roughly correspond to the Roman Empire. Wink
Back to Top
longshanks31 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jul-2007
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 572
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 10:07
The european union is better used as a trading block and nothing more, the mechanisms and offices of the european union more resemble that of the old soviet union than those of the united states.
I can only speak for britain but i suspect this extends to several member states, but we will probably end up leaving in time, and replacing it with simple free trade agreements, military integration is not something we want or need, and there is little value in joining the euro.
With respect to free trade, we are happy but thats as far as our interest extends.
When the conservatives next gain power, we will see the beginings of this.
We have different interests, things like the commonwealth and close working with our transatlantic cousins.
With the exception of nukes, america and russia pose no military threat.
russia can twist our arm over gas supply, but measures are in place to gradually remove that.
I have to say that on the whole relations between europe, north america and russia are as good as they have ever been.
long live the king of bhutan
Back to Top
Bankotsu View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 27-Feb-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 511
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 10:37
Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:

I have to say that on the whole relations between europe, north america and russia are as good as they have ever been.


What is your view of below analysis:

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geo

Back to Top
longshanks31 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jul-2007
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 572
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 12:54
Originally posted by Bankotsu Bankotsu wrote:

Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:

I have to say that on the whole relations between europe, north america and russia are as good as they have ever been.


What is your view of below analysis:

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geo

 
I understand what you are saying here but in the context of the past sixty years its a mere blip, sure the russians are worried, but i for one would rather have yanks getting nuclear supremacy than the other contenders.
For this system to work it relies on close co-operation, and what will russia do in the meantime, nuke the world to oblivion, i dont think so.
America poses no threat, in all the major things it needs the co-operation of its various allies and in the event america decided to turn bad for bads sake (highly unlikely)
that support would evaporate fast.
America has a great military but they are stretched dealin with the likes of afghanistan and iraq, and the same goes for us too.
America doesnt have a bottomless pit of money or the will of the people to do anything but trouble shooting.
Russia had to use every trick in its box to tackle little chechnya and on the whole failed, war is different now and very expensive, even small operations.
War on a large scale has had its day, and thank whatever god or empty skies you look too for it.
It will dawn on russia that the race is lost and they will accept it and move on (a good thing), much the same as we had to accept at one point that we were no longer the mr big anymore.
China cant afford to quibble too greatly, globalisation is the key, if china and russia want to sell things and feed people they have to interact with the states and EU on atleast some level.
We all have to get along or perish, america included.
The world problems that threaten us are not in these arenas, it is the age old problems of the middle east and the hindu/islam problems of the sub continent of asia.
long live the king of bhutan
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 16:11
Here is another map:



You might like this to:

Sarkozy pushes Mediterranean Union
The French president sees support for plans that would group nations as diverse as Libya and Spain.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0824/p07s02-woeu.html

or even this:
The North American Union




If I was Mr. Rogers I would say' "what does this spell children?"
G-L-O-B-A-L-I-S-M


How would you like to be my neighbor????

Edited by eaglecap - 27-Jul-2008 at 16:43
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
Donasin View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 107
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 19:06
I wouldn't mind a North American Union. Although I doubt it would have ANY real power. Nationalists in the Us and Canada (not sure about Mexico) make it hard to have North American wide trade agreements or highways.

Maybe if people still used the US as a union instead of a nation things would be easier.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.