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Forum LockedEthnic Origins of the Bulgars

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    Posted: 29-May-2007 at 04:55
Though today's bulgars are most definitely slavic, it is believed by some that the original bulgars were turkic in ethnicity and after mixing with slavs in thrace adopted slavic language and culture. Others believe that these are fallacies supported only by pan-turkic propaganda.
 
Let us discuss the migrations and history of the bulgars and hence derive upon a conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 08:19

1) The language which was spoken in the imperial themata( geographicaly Thracian part) were today's Bulgaria is located was not the slavic-neither quantitatively nor officialy- it was the Greek, so as for the culture. The years later 8cent. and so on, it was a natural process of assimilation and progress .

2)What kind of ethnicityDisapprove. Was there any ethnic-national conscious like this which we are used to refer nowadays?
 
3)When all the others are approximately the clear majority, then you have to reconsider about these theories. I think that we should discuss what is believed about modern turkish ethnicity in the same logic(or Greek , why not?)
 
The migrations and history of the Bulgars is rather a serious and interesting subject and i suggest to stay on this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 11:03

Bulgars were and are Turkic people.

Bulgars origins are the "On-ogurs", Utigurs and Kutrigurs, tribes who have Turkic-Hunnic origin.
 
Bulgars of Volga Bulgaria retained their language, customs and identity, the Chuvash are the closest speakers of the old-Bulgar language, the Volga Tatars were named such by Russians, they are actually Bulgars.
 
Bulgarians retained the Bulgar name but adopted a Slavic language.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 11:45
Bulgars most likely appeared as an ethnos in north of Black see around 200-300 AD as a result of mixture of nomadic and not nomadic tribes living and coming there: the remains of Sarmats, Antes, Turkic tribes etc.
 
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Bulgars of Volga Bulgaria retained their language, customs and identity, the Chuvash are the closest speakers of the old-Bulgar language, the Volga Tatars were named such by Russians, they are actually Bulgars.
1. Tatars speak Turkic language close to Kipchak. It has no similarities with ancient Bulgar language. Kazan Volga Bulgars adopted this language after defeat of Volga Bulgaria by Mongols.
2. Chuvash speak language related to Turkic but most distant to them. It has Turkic, Iranian, Ugro-Finish and Slavonic roots.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:13
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Bulgars were and are Turkic people.

 
 
I don't know what made you think like this but it is really a very stupid statement.Yes,bulgars might have come from a turkic tribe but it wasn't more than 10 000 bulgars that crossed the Danube with Asparuh and founded Bulgaria.Those 10 000 bulgars which MIGHT have been of turkic origin mixed with hundrets of thousands of slavs through the centuries and you can imagine how much turkic blood (if there was any) is left now.Both look and language of bulgars is slavic and both in Bulgaria and all european countries they are considered "southern slavs".I never heard anyone say todays bulgarians are turkic and you are very wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:18
Originally posted by Jagiello Jagiello wrote:

 
I don't know what made you think like this but it is really a very stupid statement.Yes,bulgars might have come from a turkic tribe but it wasn't more than 10 000 bulgars that crossed the Danube with Asparuh and founded Bulgaria.
 
According to Rashev, Bulgarians were around one third of the total population in early Bulgaria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:28
Originally posted by Athanasios Athanasios wrote:

1) The language which was spoken in the imperial themata( geographicaly Thracian part) were today's Bulgaria is located was not the slavic-neither quantitatively nor officialy- it was the Greek, so as for the culture. The years later 8cent. and so on, it was a natural process of assimilation and progress.
 
He was asking about Bulgars, not Bulgarians. However at time of arrivals of Bulgars Moesia and Thracia was full of people speaking not only greek or even not speaking Greek -- foederati Hunns, Goths, Slavs. Do not forget about Latin language -- the official language of Roman Empire Wink  Some suppose there were non-Romanized (non-hellenized) Thracians as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:31
Anton
1. Tatars speak Turkic language close to Kipchak. It has no similarities with ancient Bulgar language. Kazan Volga Bulgars adopted this language after defeat of Volga Bulgaria by Mongols.
 
They did not adopt a new language, they spoke Turkic before and Turkic after, the Mongols spoke Mongolian and didn't have a linguistic impact on locals.
 
 
Anton
2. Chuvash speak language related to Turkic but most distant to them. It has Turkic, Iranian, Ugro-Finish and Slavonic roots.
 
Chuvash is a Turkic language, it has Turkic roots, like all languages it has borrowed various lexis from surrounding languages this doesnt change its root.
 
 
 
Jagiello
".I never heard anyone say todays bulgarians are turkic and you are very wrong.
 
I didn't say todays Bulgarians, I said todays Bulgars ie Chuvash and Volga Tatars.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:40
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

They did not adopt a new language, they spoke Turkic before and Turkic after, the Mongols spoke Mongolian and didn't have a linguistic impact on locals.
 
I made this assumption based on the fact that Tatar language is far from ancient Bulgar language and close to Kypchak. If you show me examples of Volga Bulgar language before Mongol time I may agree with you.
 
 
Quote  
Chuvash is a Turkic language, it has Turkic roots, like all languages it has borrowed various lexis from surrounding languages this doesnt change its root.
How many are those borrowings? How many of the words found in Ancient Bulgar scripts are present in all Turkic languages not only Chuvash? Many of Bulgar names can be easelly explained by any slavonic or Greek languages. Some examples: Gostun, Malamir,  Boyan, Mostich, Boris, Vladimir, Buzan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:51
Anton
How many are those borrowings? How many of the words found in Ancient Bulgar scripts are present in all Turkic languages not only Chuvash? Many of Bulgar names can be easelly explained by any slavonic or Greek languages. Some examples: Gostun, Malamir,  Boyan, Mostich, Boris, Vladimir, Buzan.
 
It really doesn't matter.
 
Every objective source on Chuvash language states, its a distinct branch of Turkic.
 
It is in root a Turkic language and that's the bottom line, linguistic borrowings occur in all languages it doesn't change its root.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 12:57
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
Every objective source on Chuvash language states, its a distinct branch of Turkic.
 
It is in root a Turkic language and that's the bottom line, linguistic borrowings occur in all languages it doesn't change its root.
 
Bulgar language find some similarities with Chuvash language (like word "dvirem") who is most distant from other Turkic languages and is not understood by other Turkic speaking people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:00

Chuvash is the only remaining branch of the Old-Bulgar language, its a distinct Turkic language, so ofcourse its more distant that other Turkic languages but it doesn't change the fact that it is a Turkic language.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:02
Here is the list of known old Bulgarian words.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:23
Similarities of Chuvash and Ancient Bulgar language were made based on reading of Nominalia of Bulgarian Kings. Most of the words are the same for Turkic and Iranian meanings. See for instance:
 
dilom Tilok – a big worm (Pamirian). Archaic turkic *dIlan  > comm. turkic yIlan 
tvirem  Tuirea – four (Sanskrit)  
doks Tokhs – bad, fierce (Persian)
shegor Sheg – a bull (Pamirian),   turkic sIg~Ir "cattle," large quadruped.
vechem Wjuch – five (Dardic)  Wjuchem – fifth
 
 
And others:
vereni Vaireni – a dragon (Prakrit) veren < turkic evren "dragon",
alem frontal, first (Talish)

toh Tukh – a hen (Pamirian)  hung. tyu'k < og~uric *tIvuq <

tutom Tutam – second (Persian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:25
Could someone show me:

1) Today's Bulgarian phenotype.
2) The folkloric costumes of Today's Bulgarians.
3) Folkloric music of Today's Bulgarians.

And the similarities between other Slavic peoples, such as Ukranians and Serbians.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:37
Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:

Could someone show me:


2) The folkloric costumes of Today's Bulgarians.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:43
Anton, lexical borrowings exist in all languages.
As all sources state, Chuvash is a Turkic language, Old-Bulgarian is Turkic.
 
Was there a Bulgar migration apart from the milliltary to todays Bulgaria? for example I know that Musalla mountain's old name was Tangra mountain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:47
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Anton, lexical borrowings exist in all languages.
As all sources state, Chuvash is a Turkic language, Old-Bulgarian is Turkic.
Bulldog, I just show you that similarities between Bulgar language and Chuvash are not sure and are based on words that are present not only in Chuvash language but other non-Turkic languages as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 13:52
Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:


3) Folkloric music of Today's Bulgarians.
Look here:
click on names of particular dances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 14:03
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Anton, lexical borrowings exist in all languages.
As all sources state, Chuvash is a Turkic language, Old-Bulgarian is Turkic.
 
Sources say that some tribes of Bulgars lived in Balkans in the time of rebellion of Vitalian. Ennodi speaks about Byzantine Bulgars and call Vitalian "Bulgarian commander". Then there were Kutriguri tribes lived as foederati. Many Bulgars lived in Pannonia under the rule of Avar Khanate. Then there were migration of Kuber Bulgars, then Asparuh Bulgars.
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