History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedEthical, Theological Implications of Atom Smasher

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ethical, Theological Implications of Atom Smasher
    Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 23:39
(NB: My commentary appears in the next post.)
 
Scientists: Nothing to fear from atom-smasher
 
By DOUGLAS BIRCH, Associated Press Writer Sat Jun 28, 3:08 PM ET

MEYRIN, Switzerland - The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.

But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?

Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN — some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.

"If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.

The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.

The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.

Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.

The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.

The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions — far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.

The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million — long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.

By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.

Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."

One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.

On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.

The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.

In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.

And so far, Earth has survived.

"The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.

Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.

Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes — collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.

But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.

Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field — and eventually threaten the planet.

Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.

As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.

When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.

Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets — to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.

The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.

Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.

Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.

The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.

"There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.



Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 30-Jun-2008 at 00:00
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 23:41
My Commentary
 
This technology could either be the beginning of something quite beneficial in scientific research or the advent of any number of catastrophes.  It brings to the forefront important questions about ethics in scientific research as well as theological points, all of which must be addressed in order to gain an understanding of the ramifications of such a project.
 
Oftentimes the scientific and theological concerns are connected.  Just as the research into the use of stem cells in medicine and the expansion of cloning from the animal to the human realm create concerns for ethics in science, so also must people of faith examine these things in the context of their beliefs and religious writings.
 
Specifically, with the development of this Atom Collider, what scientific and theological implications does it have?  We can always view space exploration in as a moral “positive” or at worst “neutral” endeavor that can only lead to good things such as triumph of human ingenuity and scientific advancement. 
 
Nevertheless, should scientists ask themselves, and people of faith pose the question, “when has science gone too far?”  I am not much of a conspiracy theorist, and the article did say there was a one in 50 million chance of a “global catastrophe” being triggered, but what are some difficult situations that could arise out of turning this machine on?  If we view this through a theological lens, could God show scientists and the world that there are boundaries to the universe that man is not meant to penetrate, and to do so has dire consequences?  By opening other dimensions, black holes, portals, and testing dark matter, man would be meddling with powers and materials beyond his comprehension.  Indeed, these are the building blocks of the Universe.  The realm of the spiritual should not be confused or crossed by that of finite.  God could perhaps choose to cast aside the celestial veil for a moment and show man a glimpse of something he is not prepared to handle in the finite world.  Recall the poignant message that is conveyed in the storyline of the 1997 movie Event Horizon and you might see what I am hinting at.
 
Here are some biblical passages to consider as you mull this over and reply:
 
Psalms 104 (NKJV)
 
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul!
         
         O LORD my God, You are very great:
         You are clothed with honor and majesty,
 2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment,
         Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.
         
 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
         Who makes the clouds His chariot,
         Who walks on the wings of the wind,
 4 Who makes His angels spirits,
         His ministers a flame of fire.
         
 5 You who laid the foundations of the earth,
         So that it should not be moved forever,
 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
         The waters stood above the mountains.
 7 At Your rebuke they fled;
         At the voice of Your thunder they hastened away.
 8 They went up over the mountains;
         They went down into the valleys,
         To the place which You founded for them.
 9 You have set a boundary that they may not pass over,
         That they may not return to cover the earth.
 
Job 26 (NKJV)
 
1 But Job answered and said:
 2 “How have you helped him who is without power?
      How have you saved the arm that has no strength?
 3 How have you counseled one who has no wisdom?
      And how have you declared sound advice to many?
 4 To whom have you uttered words?
      And whose spirit came from you?
 5 “The dead tremble,
      Those under the waters and those inhabiting them.
 6 Sheol is naked before Him,
      And Destruction has no covering.
 7 He stretches out the north over empty space;
      He hangs the earth on nothing.
 8 He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
      Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
 9 He covers the face of His throne,
      And spreads His cloud over it.
 10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters,
      At the boundary of light and darkness.
 
Job 38 (NKJV)
 
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
 2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
      By words without knowledge?
 3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
      I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
 4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
      Tell Me, if you have understanding.
 5 Who determined its measurements?
      Surely you know!
      Or who stretched the line upon it?
 6 To what were its foundations fastened?
      Or who laid its cornerstone,
 7 When the morning stars sang together,
      And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
      When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
 9 When I made the clouds its garment,
      And thick darkness its swaddling band;
 10 When I fixed My limit for it,
      And set bars and doors;
 11 When I said,

      ‘This far you may come, but no farther,
      And here your proud waves must stop!’


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 29-Jun-2008 at 23:47
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Lord of Hut River Province Principality

Joined: 01-May-2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 05:58
I believe gcle2003 posted this particular story earlier in the year. I read through the article it cited and I noticed that every single person who claimed the project was harmless was a well qualified specialist in the field of physics, while every person who criticised this project as bringing an end to the planet had no post-graduate eduation in this field. For this reason alone I find myself unperturbed by the reports of doomesday. One physics PhD said of the project, "We can't guarantee a black hole won't form, as nearly anything is possible in physics. But there is as much chance of that happening as there is a dragon appearing when we turn it on".
 
Until I see someone well qualified say something to the contrary, I can't help but think this project is most probably harmless. One in 50 millions odds aren't too bad.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 06:15
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I read through the article it cited and I noticed that every single person who claimed the project was harmless was a well qualified specialist in the field of physics, while every person who criticised this project as bringing an end to the planet had no post-graduate eduation in this field. For this reason alone I find myself unperturbed by the reports of doomesday.
 
Well, post-grad degree or not, common sense would dictate that one should not jump to conclusions, conspiracy theories, or doomsday prophesying when discussiong such important matters.  But we know that there are many who can boast post grad degrees who do not have common sense as well as people with no education who show a great deal of that and practicality.
 
Nevertheless, academics and laypeople alike are free to ask questions about the implications that such a scientific project has.  Even though the present project does not seem to pose much of a threat or cause for concern, the possibility that the mentality which led scientists to experiment with technology that could open black holes or "other dimensions" could lead to bolder attempts at exploration is a bit unsettling.  What happens if the technology is improved and the objective becomes to actually open one, even if it is a small one?  What comes after that stage?
 
Back to Top
Sparten View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Totalitarian Iconoclast

Joined: 18-Mar-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 5009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 06:45

When the first atom bomb was tested, the theory was it could ignite earths atmosphere. If a black hole dose form, then great. hope they take a pic.

 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
Back to Top
Luther View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 07:15

Looking at this topic from a Biblical perspective I can't help but compare these particular scientists to a child getting into things or playing with knives. A child's blind curiousity can lead to harm when he/she fails to comprehend the danger of the object of such curiousity. One of two things can happen: the child is harmed or a parent gives a smack on the hand to prevent it from happening. In the same way scientists could very well be "getting into things" whose danger is beyond our comprehension. Sure in this instance it doesn't seem as if there's much of a chance for harm but this curiousity could lead to future research or exploration of things beyond our comprehension and control causing immeasurable harm. Again from a Biblical perspective and being a man of faith, I believe we can ultimately stumble onto something harmful or get that "smack on the hand" from God to remind us of the boundaries He has set in place and looking through scripture, that historically was never worth it. I say all this just to make the point that though this is what appears to be a fairly harmless endeavor, it's one curious step in a direction that could someday lead to unimaginable harm if not harnessed by some good common sense.

Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 07:05
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

When the first atom bomb was tested, the theory was it could ignite earths atmosphere. If a black hole dose form, then great. hope they take a pic.
 
Although I appreciate sarcasm on most occasions, could you clarify what you mean?  I thought this news item was quite interesting and was looking forward to discussing the implications of the technology.  It is a shame more people were not interested! Cry
 
Originally posted by Luther Luther wrote:

Looking at this topic from a Biblical perspective I can't help but compare these particular scientists to a child getting into things or playing with knives. A child's blind curiousity can lead to harm when he/she fails to comprehend the danger of the object of such curiousity. One of two things can happen: the child is harmed or a parent gives a smack on the hand to prevent it from happening. In the same way scientists could very well be "getting into things" whose danger is beyond our comprehension. Sure in this instance it doesn't seem as if there's much of a chance for harm but this curiousity could lead to future research or exploration of things beyond our comprehension and control causing immeasurable harm.
 
While I am sure we are grateful for the dedication to research and the betterment of mankind of the scientists, I can't help but wonder what the actual benefits are from this study.  It seems like it could get out of hand if intellectual arrogance usurps the sense of responsibility these scientists have.  Despite all of their collective expertise, it comes down to the fact that they are like children inserting scissors into a light socket.  They have a basic concept of right and wrong but do not look at the implications of the "big picture."
 
Originally posted by Luther Luther wrote:

Again from a Biblical perspective and being a man of faith, I believe we can ultimately stumble onto something harmful or get that "smack on the hand" from God to remind us of the boundaries He has set in place and looking through scripture, that historically was never worth it. I say all this just to make the point that though this is what appears to be a fairly harmless endeavor, it's one curious step in a direction that could someday lead to unimaginable harm if not harnessed by some good common sense.
 
Indeed, it is interesting to look at the situation in the context of religious faith.  Everyone is so used to hearing the intellectual side of the scientists; however, there is a spiritual and theological dimension to this as well (sorry about the pun LOL).  In your opinion, what might be the revelation that God gives concerning the trespass of the boundaries which he established?
 
Back to Top
Tyranos View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 23:09
I dont know much about this thing, the name sounds very disturbing and yet intriguing at the same time.
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 23:32
Originally posted by Tyranos Tyranos wrote:

I dont know much about this thing, the name sounds very disturbing and yet intriguing at the same time.
 
Thanks for replying, Tyranos.  What do you find disturbing about the name and the device to which it is attached?
 
Back to Top
Tyranos View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 23:35
Its called the "atom-smasher", need I say more?Big%20smile  Ok sounds like something out've GIJOE and used by Cobra Commander or something. 
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 23:38
Originally posted by Tyranos Tyranos wrote:

Its called the "atom-smasher", need I say more?Big%20smile  Ok sounds like something out've GIJOE and used by Cobra Commander or something.
 
I was trying to get you to be more specific. LOL
 
But yes, it does sound disturbing.  It is even more so when one considers the size of this contraption!  This does not seem like merely tinkering with a science project.
 
Back to Top
Tyranos View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 00:08
I do honestly worry about the weapon potential this thing may eventually have. The extra-Dimensional stuff is intriguing, as perhaps it could open a doorway and unleash creatures or entities that arent supposed to be here.  We are witnessing alotve once "Science-Fiction" tales of yesteryear, becoming "Scientitic fact" today  . 
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 00:16
Originally posted by Tyranos Tyranos wrote:

I do honestly worry about the weapon potential this thing may eventually have. The extra-Dimensional stuff is intriguing, as perhaps it could open a doorway and unleash creatures or entities that arent supposed to be here.  We are witnessing alotve once "Science-Fiction" tales of yesteryear, becoming "Scientitic fact" today  .
 
Indeed.  When we sit back and think about it, it seems silly to hear us talk about this because of the sci-fi nature of it all.  However, it is slowly but surely becoming a reality.
 
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Lord of Hut River Province Principality

Joined: 01-May-2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 00:30
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Well, post-grad degree or not, common sense would dictate that one should not jump to conclusions, conspiracy theories, or doomsday prophesying when discussiong such important matters.  But we know that there are many who can boast post grad degrees who do not have common sense as well as people with no education who show a great deal of that and practicality.
 
To be frank, when dealing with physics on this level, no amount of common sense can compensate for the sheer vastness of technical and academic knowledge required. This is not like fixing a broken down clothes dryer, it can't be figured out intuitively, IMHO.
 
I could understand concerns about a lone scientist or pair of scientists losing sight of what is important in the pursuit of experimental glory. But this project requires a whole legion of scientists and the backing of enormous funding and permission from governments in advanced liberal democracies. Surely out of that vast multitude of scientists, investors and government officials there is bound to be someone qualified who would step forward to oppose the project. And yet the complaints have always come from unqualified people who have no real insight or involvement in the project.
.
But anyway, I will play along as this may just be intellectually stimulating.
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

This technology could either be the beginning of something quite beneficial in scientific research or the advent of any number of catastrophes.  It brings to the forefront important questions about ethics in scientific research as well as theological points, all of which must be addressed in order to gain an understanding of the ramifications of such a project.
 
Oftentimes the scientific and theological concerns are connected.  Just as the research into the use of stem cells in medicine and the expansion of cloning from the animal to the human realm create concerns for ethics in science, so also must people of faith examine these things in the context of their beliefs and religious writings.
 
Specifically, with the development of this Atom Collider, what scientific and theological implications does it have?  We can always view space exploration in as a moral “positive” or at worst “neutral” endeavor that can only lead to good things such as triumph of human ingenuity and scientific advancement. 
 
I consider space exploration more dangerous than the atom collider. If extraterrestrial, intelligent life does exists - a possibility in a universe as vast as ours - what are the odds that humans demonstrating capacity for space travel are enough to alarm these beings that they destroy us? I would say the chance is a remote one, but I am not so certain it is less than 1 in 50,000,000.
 
Sure, if we want we can be ultra conservative and simply not mess with the way things are from the time of Jesus. Not see what happens when we use poppies to treat pain, not see what happens if Columbus sails west of Iberia with the possibility of falling off our semi-sphere world, not see what awful diseases we can cure through the use of stem cells. But this would leave humanity in primitive conditions and we would endure much suffering and death which we could otherwise prevent.
 
So for that reason I consider that conservatism and fear of the unknown are in themselves insufficient reasons to halt the technological advance of the human race. Until a tangible reason based on evidence can be found which brings into question the safety of this project, it should be allowed to continue.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 00:47
Ha! The Taliban of America are at it again!

Honestly when I first heard that some right wing americans opposed CERN I thought it was a joke or propaganda. Surely, no-one could possibly oppose the most exciting development in Physics.
This is simply religious medievalism opposing knowledge yet again. CERN is not going to destroy the world, and even if it does, its worth it!

God bless France, Switzerland and all countries involved in CERN (including the US), and all the people who have supported it, and protect them from the extremists.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 2424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 04:10
I don't really see how CERN is in any way a theological issue. It's a high powered gun that fires matter that is smaller than the smallest thing we can envision in our minds. I'm no more fearful that this machine can cause suffering (other than perhaps the results of tons of magnets in such a small area) than I am that my breath will blow out the sun.

Even if strange particles are created this will be a boon because they aren't going to be stable enough nor large enough to do any appreciable damage. I mean seriously it's like worrying whether a single flea will suck all the blood from your body.

Also this is not going into the realm of the supernatural. Just because we do not understand it does not mean it isn't a part of the natural world. God gave us the natural world so that we might master it and become the caretakers of creation. That is why this shouldn't cause any concern sub-atomic particles are just as natural as the sun, the oceans and a tree so there are no questions of morality in this project.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
Benedictus View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jul-2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benedictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 05:42
Given the scientific implications for such a development, this could be a major break-through in the technological power and limits of the human imagination. With all the support the project has garnered, it seems as though it is a sound operation and should continue with the major support it already has from "top" scientists around the world. However, I would have to agree with Byzantine Emperor in saying that people without advanced degrees can contribute to some degree to a discussion about the moral implications and motivations for building and running this atom-smasher. Just because someone did not go to such-and-such a school, or achieve some specific degree does not disqualify them automatically from putting-in some well-rounded thought about what may or may not happen to earth and its people as a result of this test. Although I do support the best of scientists to be working on something of this magnitude, I may not support its motivations.

Firstly, we must ask ourselves if this is something which is actually necessary. If they are indeed creating a very small black hole, what is to stop it from growing? We cannot even begin to understand the magnitude of power contained within black holes (we are light years from the nearest one) and just because one hasn't supposedly "hurt" us yet, doesn't mean it can't happen. We have to ask what this is really achieving? Are we developing a new technology for space travel? Why? Does the possibility of there being ice on Mars create an opportunity for more billions of monies to be poured into funding space research when we really need to be cleaning up our own environment to prolong and improve our life here, rather than escaping to some planet where we would have to create a stable environment to live? I say no. We have been charged, simply by the fact of being born on this earth, to take care of it and to prolong and improve it both for our sakes and for the sakes of our offspring.

Secondly, if this does create a black hole, why are we so curious to generate one? Don't we know what one already does? Have we not observed this already? Why are all these modern nations pushing funding and resources for this? It seems more as though it could be some sort of superweapon technology disguised as a "harmless" scientific test. Despite the position acclaim for this experiment, I can't help but see it as a complete and utter waste of resources, time, and energy all for the purpose of generating a few seconds of excitement. This is aside from them actually discovering anything of value. What if they don't discover anything? Have we used these resources in vain, when they could have been put to much better use elsewhere? I see nothing convincing me that so-called modern or "progressive" nations are necessarily better than nations of the past. Sure, sure, we have more freedoms and opportunities afforded us but it is fast becoming a society where our freedoms are taken away just because the government feels that they need to regulate everything. All in the name of safety...

Thirdly, if I can bring to mind the story of the Tower of Babel from the Bible, a noted and well-known ecclesiastical source of knowledge. According to this book, a powerful assemblage of nations came together to build a tower to heaven, in essence, to reach and be on par with God. By very nature, God is supreme and has no equal. This is to distinguish from gods, lesser beings at best, which according to myth, govern elements of space, time, elements, or psyche. This project, sanctioned by multiple countries and economies, seems to be somewhat on the same level with this story. Both sets of people feel that they can control to a large degree the power and situations around them and feel that they can go one step further. The only problem is that in the end of the Babel story, God divided the peoples up by causing them to speak different languages (where we get our major language groups today). If we go forth with this experiment in a few weeks, will God punish us for our stepping into boundaries we ought not to?

Some of you believe that this is not a theological argument at all but rather a simple scientific process which will determine what? ...the limits of human creativity? I believe that we are bordering on idiocy by attempting to created a BLACK HOLE!!!! This is like playing with fire and gasoline with a cigarette lighter!!! Maybe it will work and nothing will happen. Maybe something will happen but it is on too small a scale to cause any damage. Perhaps nothing will happen and then we abandon the facility (not likely) but something perpetuates and grows until we have something we cannot control. Perhaps God will send punishment in some form. Either way, I think we have crossed the boundaries of both rationality and sensibility by participating in such an inane and pointless project. Whatever DOES HAPPEN, I think our efforts should be focused in any number of other areas.

These so-called scientists should really spend more time debating the merit of such experiments and where the lines of science should never attempt to cross (i.e. human cloning, genetic manipulation, cybernetic control and monitoring). Just remember, such a fallible earth could never last forever...
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 11:18
Originally posted by Benedictus Benedictus wrote:

Given the scientific implications for such a development, this could be a major break-through in the technological power and limits of the human imagination. With all the support the project has garnered, it seems as though it is a sound operation and should continue with the major support it already has from "top" scientists around the world. However, I would have to agree with Byzantine Emperor in saying that people without advanced degrees can contribute to some degree to a discussion about the moral implications and motivations for building and running this atom-smasher. Just because someone did not go to such-and-such a school, or achieve some specific degree does not disqualify them automatically from putting-in some well-rounded thought about what may or may not happen to earth and its people as a result of this test. Although I do support the best of scientists to be working on something of this magnitude, I may not support its motivations.
Unless you don't know high level physiscs you won't understand the motivations
Quote
Firstly, we must ask ourselves if this is something which is actually necessary. If they are indeed creating a very small black hole, what is to stop it from growing? We cannot even begin to understand the magnitude of power contained within black holes (we are light years from the nearest one) and just because one hasn't supposedly "hurt" us yet, doesn't mean it can't happen. We have to ask what this is really achieving? Are we developing a new technology for space travel? Why? Does the possibility of there being ice on Mars create an opportunity for more billions of monies to be poured into funding space research when we really need to be cleaning up our own environment to prolong and improve our life here, rather than escaping to some planet where we would have to create a stable environment to live? I say no. We have been charged, simply by the fact of being born on this earth, to take care of it and to prolong and improve it both for our sakes and for the sakes of our offspring.
The purpose of the experiment(s) are quite clear. Why do you talk about space travel? And your opinion that we have been "charged" to take care of our planet has nothing to do with the experiment. BTW, yesterday I've just received an update of my job description. It states that I'm in charge of the Moon.
Quote
Secondly, if this does create a black hole, why are we so curious to generate one? Don't we know what one already does? Have we not observed this already? Why are all these modern nations pushing funding and resources for this? It seems more as though it could be some sort of superweapon technology disguised as a "harmless" scientific test. Despite the position acclaim for this experiment, I can't help but see it as a complete and utter waste of resources, time, and energy all for the purpose of generating a few seconds of excitement. This is aside from them actually discovering anything of value. What if they don't discover anything? Have we used these resources in vain, when they could have been put to much better use elsewhere? I see nothing convincing me that so-called modern or "progressive" nations are necessarily better than nations of the past. Sure, sure, we have more freedoms and opportunities afforded us but it is fast becoming a society where our freedoms are taken away just because the government feels that they need to regulate everything. All in the name of safety...
The experiment is about enhancing our knowledge. It's purpose is not to generate a "black hole" or to create a superweapon. We have enough firepower for now. Should we stop all scientific research just because it might lead to no new discoveries? And what does govermental safety regulations have to do with CERN?
Quote
Thirdly, if I can bring to mind the story of the Tower of Babel from the Bible, a noted and well-known ecclesiastical source of knowledge. According to this book, a powerful assemblage of nations came together to build a tower to heaven, in essence, to reach and be on par with God. By very nature, God is supreme and has no equal. This is to distinguish from gods, lesser beings at best, which according to myth, govern elements of space, time, elements, or psyche. This project, sanctioned by multiple countries and economies, seems to be somewhat on the same level with this story. Both sets of people feel that they can control to a large degree the power and situations around them and feel that they can go one step further. The only problem is that in the end of the Babel story, God divided the peoples up by causing them to speak different languages (where we get our major language groups today). If we go forth with this experiment in a few weeks, will God punish us for our stepping into boundaries we ought not to?
He will not punish you, for sure. God will only see that those who proceeded with the experiment get bruised. You faith shall be rewarded.
Quote
Some of you believe that this is not a theological argument at all but rather a simple scientific process which will determine what? ...the limits of human creativity? I believe that we are bordering on idiocy by attempting to created a BLACK HOLE!!!! This is like playing with fire and gasoline with a cigarette lighter!!! Maybe it will work and nothing will happen. Maybe something will happen but it is on too small a scale to cause any damage. Perhaps nothing will happen and then we abandon the facility (not likely) but something perpetuates and grows until we have something we cannot control. Perhaps God will send punishment in some form. Either way, I think we have crossed the boundaries of both rationality and sensibility by participating in such an inane and pointless project. Whatever DOES HAPPEN, I think our efforts should be focused in any number of other areas.

Maybe building churches?
Quote
These so-called scientists should really spend more time debating the merit of such experiments and where the lines of science should never attempt to cross (i.e. human cloning, genetic manipulation, cybernetic control and monitoring). Just remember, such a fallible earth could never last forever...
Debating especially with religious people? How dare they thinking, they should just stick with the creed!

Edited by Cezar - 24-Jul-2008 at 11:20
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 11:44
Originally posted by Benedictus Benedictus wrote:

Just because someone did not go to such-and-such a school, or achieve some specific degree does not disqualify them automatically from putting-in some well-rounded thought about what may or may not happen to earth and its people as a result of this test.

I don't know what I'm talking about but y'all gotta listen to my opinion.

What a ridiculous premises. If you don't know what your talking about it does disqualify you from voicing your opinion. Its like asking someone to navigate while deaf, blind, and just being spun around several times. Sure they can voice an opinion but they don't know which way they're facing let alone where anything else is.
Quote Thirdly, if I can bring to mind the story of the Tower of Babel from the Bible, a noted and well-known ecclesiastical source of knowledge. According to this book, a powerful assemblage of nations came together to build a tower to heaven, in essence, to reach and be on par with God. By very nature, God is supreme and has no equal. This is to distinguish from gods, lesser beings at best, which according to myth, govern elements of space, time, elements, or psyche. This project, sanctioned by multiple countries and economies, seems to be somewhat on the same level with this story. Both sets of people feel that they can control to a large degree the power and situations around them and feel that they can go one step further. The only problem is that in the end of the Babel story, God divided the peoples up by causing them to speak different languages (where we get our major language groups today). If we go forth with this experiment in a few weeks, will God punish us for our stepping into boundaries we ought not to?

God has already laid out his rules and they firmly and unquestionably encourage scientific research! Who are you to create boundaries that God didn't?

"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2008 at 18:20
I say Godspeed and hope it helps progress scientific knowledge

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:


God has already laid out his rules and they firmly and unquestionably encourage scientific research! Who are you to create boundaries that God didn't?


Right on Omar.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.