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Forum LockedEsztergom Castle in Turkey?

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    Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 08:33

 

I have just heard that a replica as large as life Esztegom Castle was built in Ankara. This will be the place of the Museum of Ethnography. The Castle was opened by the Prime Minister of Turkey.

Why was the Castle of Esztergom chosen? Why a Hungarian castle was  so important that a replica in real size was made in Ankara?

Do the turkish forum members know anything about it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 09:04

Yep,i have seen it!...

Your thread confirms macars and turks have the same origins

ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 10:37

Nonsense, It has no relation with same origin.

Turks have a epic at that castle.

They fight against 80000 people with 1500 people.

They fight 28 day, If I am not wrong. That castle is always one of the most loved castle. There is a lot song about that castle.

Even one of them is militaristic song.(jenisaries)

 

It has no relation with Turks and Macars orijin.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 11:43
Originally posted by Murtaza Murtaza wrote:

They fight against 80000 people with 1500 people.

Against whom? Mongols?

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 12:46

No, I think again "joined christians" or something like that.

Of course they couldnt defend it. I have not much knowledge about it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 13:22

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Esztergom

 

Esztergom is one of Hungary's most important historic towns. The Celts, the first people known by a specific name, moved to the area from Western Europe at around 350 BC. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, other peoples - the Huns, the Germans, the Avars and the Franks - also inhabited this area.

The new settlement which dated from the time of the Hungarian Conquest grew in importance from the 960s onwards, when Prince Géza chose Esztergom as his place of residence. Vajk, Géza's son, who subsequently ruled as King Stephen I, was born in the palace built on Castle Hill. It was also in Esztergom that Stephen was crowned king of Hungary in 1000 AD.

Built in this period was the Castle of Esztergom, which served as the seat of the Hungarian kings up to the Tatar Invasion of 1241. The castle was the centre of not only the state, but also of the Hungarian Church.

The most affluent burghers, the famous Latini - craftsmen and traders of French, Spanish, Belgian and Italian origin -, made up the local council of the town. Visiting Esztergom in 1147, the Frenchman Odo de Deogilo wrote: "...in famous Esztergom the Danube embraces the treasures and wealth of several countries."

By the early thirteenth century Esztergom was without doubt the political and economic centre of Hungary. However, after the destruction of the town by the Tatars Esztergom lost its pre-eminent role and declined. King Béla IV gave the royal palace and the castle to the archbishopric and moved his seat to Buda, which became the permanent capital. The castle of Esztergom was subsequently improved by the archbishops.

In the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, Esztergom, because of its archbishops, often hosted events of national significance and became one of the most important centres of Hungarian culture. Royal guests as well as scholars and artists of European renown were frequent visitors to the archiepiscopal court (like Galeotto Marzio; Regiomontanus and Georg Peuerbach, the famous astronomers; Pier Paolo Vergerio; and Antonio Bonfini).

The Ottoman (Turkish) onslaught on Hungary marked the beginning of the decline of the flourishing medieval town of Esztergom. With a vast army under his command, in 1543 Sultan Suleiman II laid siege to the castle. After two weeks of fighting, the foreign garrison capitulated, surrendering the castle with treason. In 1595 the Habsburgs retook the castle from the Turks, but the town paid a great price for its deliverance: the overwhelming majority of the remaining medieval buildings were destroyed in the battle. The devastated area was resettled with Hungarians, Slovaks and Germans. It was in this period that Esztergom acquired its present ethnic character.

In 1725 Esztergom, now under reconstruction, regained its earlier status as a royal free town. However, in terms of size and importance it remained a shadow of its former self. The handicrafts industry now began to expand, while commerce and viticulture played an important role in the local economy. Gradually, the baroque townscape that can be seen today began to take shape.

In 1761 the archbishopric recovered the castle and soon started the establishment of a vast new ecclesiastical centre. The middle part of Castle Hill was removed to make way for the enormous cathedral to be erected there.

Those visiting Esztergom can admire the Basilica, the most monumental example of neo-classical architecture in Hungary, even from a distance. Towering high above the Danube, it stands out dramatically on the top of Castle Hill. This emblematic building of the town is the largest church in Hungary as well. Ferenc Liszt composed his famous Esztergom Mass (1856) for the consecration of the cathedral, whose proportions are breathtaking: the ceiling of the big dome rises 71.5 metres above the floor. The arches are enormous, as is Michelangelo Grigoletti's altarpiece.

The lookout point at the top of the big dome offers magnificent views of Párkány (on the Slovak side of the Danube), the recently constructed Maria Valeria Bridge and the northern parts of Esztergom (St George's Field, Danube Valley and Watertown).

In the main street of Watertown, amongst baroque and neo-classical buildings, stands the Primate's Palace. On the upper floor of the palace we find the world-famous Christian Museum. Located at the southern edge of Watertown is the Cathedral Library. With around 250, 000 volumes, it is one of Hungary's largest collections of ecclesiastical books.

The main square of the town is Széchenyi tér, in which one finds baroque, rococo and neo-classical buildings. Completing the square on the south side is the baroque building of the Town Hall, which, in its present form, dates from the period between 1770 and 1773.

This beautifully located town, which has a large collection of historical monuments bearing witness to the many ups and downs of Hungary's turbulent past, is sure to appeal to all those interested in history and art.

http://www.kodaly.matav.hu/egom_a.htm

Isk..

 



Edited by iskenderani
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 13:25

Thanks for knowledge, but I am sure what he asked is not history, But why turks love Estergon castle, Can you help him?

Maybe you are a hidden Turk?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 03:43
Originally posted by Raider Raider wrote:

Why was the Castle of Esztergom chosen? Why a Hungarian castle was  so important that a replica in real size was made in Ankara?

Do the turkish forum members know anything about it?

The mayor of Keciören, which is a quarter of Ankara is very nationalist. Estergon castle is famous with its heroic defence and the existence of the song of Estergon is another point that make Estergon important and well known name in the minds of nationalists. Estergon is only a symbol. Do not think that they assume Estergon is a Turkish castle.

This is the "Estergon Castle" that they have built in Ankara.

May be you are interested with Estergon Song too.

You can find Mehter (Ottoman army) songs from this link.

http://www.turkishmusic.org/index6.html

Do not use MEHTER 1 and MEHTER 2 parts since the sound quality is very low and I think they are very old as much as possible.

For Estergon song choose Estergon Kalasi from the part of MEHTER (Military Museum Band - Harbiye).

It may be interesting for you listenning to the attack march of cavalary units in the Turkish army which is Hucum Marsi. Gulbank is the prayer for infantary units just before the attack. Osman Pasa Marsi has been written for the defenders at Plevne against the Russian army. Genc Osman is very old song written for the conquest of Bagdat in the 16th or 17th century during wars against Safavids. Kirimdan Gelirim is a folk song from the Crimean Army. Eski Ordu Marsi is the old army song of Ottoman Empire. Devlet Marsi is the State song of Ottomans. Ceddin Deden and Artar Cihatla Sanimiz (Our glory increases with Jihat) are one of the songs which is used to increase the moral of the soldiers during the battles. Mehter band was continuously palying during the wars and the soldiers were also singing those songs during their long walks. It must take time and boring to walk from Istanbul to Belgrad or Vienna or Bagdat.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 21:30

Baris Manco (Turkish rock star's song from the 70's) -  song's beginning and emotionally charged patriotic lyrics sung to the background of Ottoman military drums.

Estergon Kalesi (Estergon Castle)

 

Estergon Estergon
7 krala saray olan Estergon
(Palace to 7 kings Estergon)
Biz seni nemshehirlerine Allah emaneti edip verdik (In God's trust we left you to the locals)
Ve ishte shimdi geri almaya geldik. (Now we came to take you back)

 

I'm not so sure that nemshehir represents locals though.

Anyway, along with Genc Osman, it was a cool song.

 



Edited by Seko
Copyright © 2004 Seko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 03:58

 

Well this is really interesting, thank you.

I have never heard about this siege. When was it? In Hungary the most famous sieges are Szigetvár, Drégely, Eger and Kőszeg.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 11:01
Originally posted by Murtaza Murtaza wrote:

Turks have a epic at that castle.

They fight against 80000 people with 1500 people.

There was such a battle/siege with thousands of people and no-one knows anything about it? Against whom? When?

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 11:28

Yiannis

Well we can not follow our past much, do you know kanije castle?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 03:07

Kanije? Is this it's Turkish name? Is it known by another one?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 03:22

 

And when was this siege? Did the Holy League siege them?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 04:27

It was taken first at 1543  by the Suleyman The lawmaker,

Than It sieged at 2 august 1595, It was sieged by  austrian(It can be also holy leage,there were poland and Italian soldiers too) with 80 000 soldier. There were 1400-5000 soldier,(Numbers are a little vague) This is what I find different source.

Leader of Ottomans is Kara Ali Bey. When They were asked for surrender, He said " We are the gazis of Rumeli, We give our head but not our castle"

These words lives in a song know by people.

They resisted one month, Kara Ali Bey died at war. Than after him comes Lala Mehmed Paţa, They surrender because of starvation.(I think there were also a rebellion of Jeniseries.)

After 10 years, It was again Lala Mehmed Paţa who returned for Estergon castle.At 29 august 1605, He sieged castle and take it in one month.

After He take castle, he said "This is just what I wait for 10 year, I dont care If I take other castle, This is wish of my life" something like that. I dont remember it much. I think this make story a little epic.

Estergon Kalesi subaţý kale
Göklere ser çekmiţ burçlarý hele
Biz böyle kaleyi vermezdik ele

A poet about estergon.

The last sentence means, We dont(shouldnt) give a castle like this.(They compliment castle of estergon.) And they somehow accused themself for giving castle.

 

 

 

Yiannis I dont know Its english is also kanije or not., Ottomans are not a topic invested much. Even Turkish people dont interest it much, because of Ataturk's revolution. Even some of them dont accept Ottoman as Turkish Empire, I think some Alevis hate Ottomans also. But Not sure about it.

most of ottomans war are not examined, neither by Turks, nor by others.

Kanife castle is an other epic defense.  Turks were sieged, they resist two month, when they finished their food, than they attacked enemy. And They won war.  It was protected by Tiryaki Hasan Paţa. He was 80 years old. He bind himself to his horse for fighting. He used a lot trick.

Castle sieged by 50 000 people to 5000 people. It was again austrians.

After the war, when padisah sent him a congratulation, He cried and said." when I was young, noone waste a Padisah congratulation for  a minor success like this."

But I am not sure If all number is realy that much true, But It is also a know epic by Turks. Thanks to Cuneyt Tarkýn.He made a film about it.

That is the reason why you dont know this epic defence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2005 at 04:49

 

I ' ve found this picture on the net. This tablet was made by the order of Suleyman the Magnificent in Esztergom. Is this in connection with this famous siege? Can somebody read it?



Edited by Raider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 20:27
Esztergom(Estergon in Turkish) Kanije and Eđri are three famous fortresses that resisted against the armies of the Holy League of Christians(mostly Austro-Germans though) and either those were the three fortresses the Ottomans had taken from Austrian Empire and that had been one of latest victories of Ottomans at Balkans.
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 03:30
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Baris Manco (Turkish rock star's song from the 70's) -  song's beginning and emotionally charged patriotic lyrics sung to the background of Ottoman military drums.

Estergon Kalesi (Estergon Castle)

 

Estergon Estergon
7 krala saray olan Estergon
(Palace to 7 kings Estergon)
Biz seni nemshehirlerine Allah emaneti edip verdik (In God's trust we left you to the locals)
Ve ishte shimdi geri almaya geldik. (Now we came to take you back)

 

I'm not so sure that nemshehir represents locals though.

Anyway, along with Genc Osman, it was a cool song.

 

It's not nemsehri, it's "Nemcheli"= Austrian 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 03:31
Originally posted by Raider Raider wrote:

 

I ' ve found this picture on the net. This tablet was made by the order of Suleyman the Magnificent in Esztergom. Is this in connection with this famous siege? Can somebody read it?

I think it's placed reversely.. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 03:40

 

like this is correct.

well i tried to read it and i only got the first line there the secound one is not clear.

well the first line there reads " Iam Sultan Suleyman son of Sultan Salim ..)

the rest is not that clear for me to read.

 



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