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Forum LockedEnglish genocide in Ireland?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 00:28
Please view Pinguin and Parnell.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPIsTKpAoE4




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 01:52
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 01:54
And this is a very interesting site. It seem the trial of history is still going on.
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 11:20
pinguin, all you are doing is quoting propaganda from extremist sources. If I wanted I could go around the web and find a deluge of articles and sites still promoting 'Aryan' superiority. It wouldn't prove anything except there are a lot of nuts around.
 
Parnell and I have discussed Irish history together often in this forum, and while he is Irish Catholic and I'm of Anglo-Catholic/Welsh descent, we usually agree on the factual story of the relations between the peoples. 
 
The idea that the British deliberately tried to kill off the Irish people is simply ridiculous. That the Irish, especially the Catholic Irish, were for a long time repressed economically is true, and it is also true that the UK government could probably have done more to ease the famine - though you have to remember that the UK government at the time was a reformist one committed to free trade.
 
The famine arose with the Europe-wide arrival of potato blight in 1945. While it hit all Europe, Ireland was the most exposed because it was the primary - even in many places the only - food source. There were many reasons for that, but chief among them was overpopulation (the Irish population then was greater than it is now) and, over most of the island, total dependence on local agriculture.
 
All the stuff about landlords and quasi-feudal tenures and so on wasn't in fact much worse, if at all, than in many stretches of Britain, let alone other areas of Europe. Even mid-19th century Russian landlords didn't go around deliberately killing off their serfs.
 
I'd suggest you read Dean Swift's A Modest Proposal except you would probably take it literally instead of as the satire it is (like many other people seem to have done).( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 13:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Perhaps it is the Black Legend of England that influenced me. You know, that that say, England is the source of all evil, because its protestantism.

 
If you have not been chastised enough, that is one of the all time dopey comments.  What the hell is that supposed to mean?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 13:53
I simply mean that people (myself included) just repeat what historians, commentarists, and books comments on issues. Being from another culture, of course I have received the biassed of my own. And in the spanish-speaking culture, the Irish are seen as the weak repressed victims and the English as theirs victimaries. Even more, the Irish are perceived as closed to our people, perhaps because they are Catholics.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 14:15
'You just repeat' ?  Do you not bother to check ?
 
'Fount of all evils' goes back to the 1500's and the Reformation. The Protestants thought that about the RC's as well.
 
Thought we had basically got over that by now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 15:29
Thanks to all for bringing some common sense to this discussion, fraid I lost the run of myself. Maybe its the fact that I'm sitting an Irish history exam in a couple of days and don't have the energy to refute absolutely unsubstantiated nonsense.

Pinguin, its irrelevant how your peers view the Irish or whatever it is how you are justifying an anti-rational position. You are supposed to think and read about things critically and bring in the wider context to explain disasters like the Irish famine. Its too easy to look things as black and white -> ie, The Brits could have done something, but they didn't, so they must have willfully looked to kill off the Irish catholic.

I'm sorry, but that is the most retarded sentiment I have ever seen expressed on Allempires.

Your comment on being an Irish Protestant really surprised me and confirmed my very small view of how you view the world.

As another user said, this 16th century nonsense about the 'other side' being the son of satan is thankfully long dated. Unfortunately it still holds sway in some of the meeker brains on this planet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 17:23

Sorry, but I don't answer offenses. If you want I answer you how you deserve, after using once and more time words like "retarded", "nonsense", etc. send me a private e-mail and I will answer you as you deserve.

I won't try to change a dogma about english history. In matters of faith it is very hard to convince people. I see this problem from outside your region, and for me it is pretty obvious that the potato famine was "quite convinient" for english interests. That's all.
 
Case over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 17:38
Nothing more dangerous than a closed mind, as they say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:21
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Nothing more dangerous than a closed mind, as they say.
 
Absolutely. That's what I was talking about Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:21
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sorry, but I don't answer offenses. If you want I answer you how you deserve, after using once and more time words like "retarded", "nonsense", etc. send me a private e-mail and I will answer you as you deserve.

I won't try to change a dogma about english history. In matters of faith it is very hard to convince people. I see this problem from outside your region, and for me it is pretty obvious that the potato famine was "quite convinient" for english interests. That's all.
What English interests? The English, including the Anglo-Irish and the Scots, incidentally, made more out of Ireland before the famine than after it. When a million Irish died and a million emigrated (Roman Catholic or not) they stopped paying rents. In that kind of economy, as in the US south, the more people working for you the better.
 
It's not as though the English were queuing up to emigrate to Ireland and take the place of those who died.
 
Case over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:38
Gah! You WANT the Irish to be treated as the Scots were after the Uprising? Which part of it do you think was admirable? The Highland Clearances? The Dress Act? The Disarming Act? The mass transportations? The executions -- and let me point out those were frequently for treason which meant being hanged, drawn and quartered. Or maybe it was the prison conditions after Culloden when prisoners, denied medical care and food in horribly over-crowded conditions, died to be buried in mass graves?

Ahem. However, the Highland Clearances and such did allow the English to rid themselves of many of those inconvenient Scots Catholics.

I'm not denying the severity to the famine, but let's not turn it into who was treated worse by the English.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I think your question needs a little rephrasing. The United Kingdom only existed from 1800, and the problem (I suppose it's reasonable to call it that) was well developed before that. Until that time Ireland had its own parliament, just as Scotland had up until 1707. So the question ought to be phrased according to the period you are concerned with.

In addition the more interesting way to put it would be 'if the English had treated the Irish the same way as they did the Scots and the Welsh and the Irish in the north....? And in one sense they did. Where the different treatment arose is that Roman Catholics were treated differently from Anglicans, Protestants, and indeed deists and agnostics.

And of course the Irish were and are far more Roman Catholic than anything else. At least in the south.

That's really the root of the problem: religious discrimination, not ethnic or racial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:44
As far as the deliberation of the English in that disaster, their policies caused it and they refrained from helping. They also did what they could to prevent others from helping. Millions died as a result.

If I simply don't care and kill a few million people, I'm guilty whether I "meant to" or just didn't give a damn. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 23:50
Originally posted by JRScotia JRScotia wrote:

As far as the deliberation of the English in that disaster, their policies caused it and they refrained from helping. They also did what they could to prevent others from helping. Millions died as a result.

If I simply don't care and kill a few million people, I'm guilty whether I "meant to" or just didn't give a damn. 


That's precisely what I see from the outside, here in South America. Perhaps it is time to do a serious investigation about the human rights violations of England in those dark times. Countries can't live on lies forever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 00:05
Perhaps this is why the English Government does not like to see too much history taught in schools. As an Englishman, at least back to 1600, I see little to be proud of in our national history, but then isn't pride a sin its self? 
Does it help if Tony Blair or anyone else stands up and says sorry for the nation's past mistakes, as he did over the Irish famine. Whatever the reason or faults that lay behind the Irish famine the fact is that there are still thousands dying each yearly/monthly/weekly from malnutrition and contaminated water and the world is still not doing all it can to prevent it. Are we all now guilty of genocide?
 But then this is a history forum, not a philosophy or economics forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 00:05
What lies? Name the lies that are being told Pinguin? Please. Or else shut the hell up and read a book about the Irish famine. Your only embaressing yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 01:51
What is the lie I am telling, Parnell? The facts are clear.  I have only said that, in my oppinion, the intentions are also clear. It is so difficult for you to grasp?
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 02:33
If it is OUR policy that causes the deaths and WE actively refuse and even prevent help as was the case in the famine -- You tell me how we aren't guilty of genocide. 

And no, the cause was not over-population which is known as blaming the victim. Stupid Irish -- wouldn't have died if they hadn't had so many kids. It was the system that they had been forced into of subsistence farming from which they had no escape which was an English policy.

Does it help if someone in England finally had the honesty to stand up and say, "We killed millions in Scotland, Ireland, China (Opium/Boxer War), India (Salt March, etc), promoting and profiting from slavery, and genocide in North America, Australia, and Africa."

Yeah. As a matter of fact, in my opinion, it does. Why do Germans have to apologize for half a century and going forward for genocide but the English can pretend it never happened?  And if a history site isn't the place to discuss history, I'm not quite sure where is. Are the English alone in having committed horrors? Of course not. But they're the ones we're discussing here.

Edit: I want to clear up an apparent inaccuracy in an earlier post. I noticed a referance to the Highland Clearances (and what should have been included which was the mass transportations of Jacobites and those who resisted the Act of Proscription) as hundreds of years before the Potato Famine. This is inaccurate.

These followed the both the First and Second Jacobite Uprising and continued througout the 18th century and there were mass evictions and one of the largest emigraions from Scotland in the "Year of the Sheep" in 1792. Also, many people don't realize that Scotland was also hit by the Potato Famine which caused increased pressure toward depopulation of the Highlands. The Potato Famine was never as severe in the Highlands which was much less dependent on the potato compared to Ireland. So these were all only slightly earlier than the mass Irish emigrations and some during exactly the same period. You found forced "emigration" from Scotland well into the 1800s.

Frankly, since the depopulation of the Scottish Highlands WAS quite deliberate for both political and economic reasons, I hold that as being at least as bad. But that comes from a Scot, after all, so I'm prejudiced. I'd be hard pressed to really know which caused more suffering.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Perhaps this is why the English Government does not like to see too much history taught in schools. As an Englishman, at least back to 1600, I see little to be proud of in our national history, but then isn't pride a sin its self? 
Does it help if Tony Blair or anyone else stands up and says sorry for the nation's past mistakes, as he did over the Irish famine. Whatever the reason or faults that lay behind the Irish famine the fact is that there are still thousands dying each yearly/monthly/weekly from malnutrition and contaminated water and the world is still not doing all it can to prevent it. Are we all now guilty of genocide?
 But then this is a history forum, not a philosophy or economics forum.


Edited by JRScotia - 14-May-2009 at 03:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 09:16
If it was "the English" that were responsible for the outcome from the Irish famine, then we should narrow it down to just who we mean by the English. As with the Highland clearance, the Opium wars, the Indian uprisings and the African wars it was the landowners, the East India company and the so called "owners" of the South African lands that were responsible. The English were just the ones that were used to fight the wars and pay for the military action. The situation was exactly the same with slavery and is not very different from the situation in Iraq where it has been commercial interests that have led the agenda. 


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