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Forum LockedEnglish genocide in Ireland?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 09:59
By the way, Tim Healy was a Home Ruler and this Passmore fellow seems to be a Liberal?? They weren't on the same side until the 1886 (?) election I thought?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 12:47
Complicated and in some ways only incidental to Ireland.
 
By 'supporting closure' they meant supporting a motion to change Parliamentary rules so that the government, with the support of only a minority of members (100),[1] could close down a debate and proceed to a vote..
 
Previously a determined bloc of members could insist on continuing a debate, in a way much like a Senate filibuster in the US. And Parnell (the other one Smile ) with the support of his 59 Home Rulers after 1875 had been using the rules to obstruct government legislation in general.
 
I agree you would have expected a home ruler to vote against the measure but Heraley wasn't really a 'Home Ruler' (i.e. he didn't represent an Irish constituency.
 
[1] There are some details about the Speaker having to approve that the rights os Parliament aren't unduly suppressed and so on, but it was a major extension of government powers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 17:27
Ah, of course, thanks for shedding light on that Gcle. Parnell was indeed a great student of obstructionism. His modern personification on AE may not be all that different Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 23:31
Thank you all very much for your help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 16:10
I am absolutely convinced the Irish potato genocide was a real genocide, without quotes.
That was simply the way Europeans resolved conflicts in those dark times, before the declaration of human rights of the U.N.
Before Nuremberg and the trials of criminals of war, genocide was something "normal" in the minds of politicians.
 
This horrible crime commited by the English against the Irish people should not forgotton, nor denied, but just accepted as an example of the brutality of superpowers. The English commited several other crimes against other peoples, including Europeans. For instance, they started the concentration camps against the Boers in South Africa. And I am not going to mention crimes against non european peoples, which can fill libraries.
 
Was Britain worst than the rest? I don't think so. With all the refinement of modern courts, advanced math and sciences, glorious music, refined arts, the Europeans between the 16th and the 20th century were driven by a continues flux of violence, murder, wars, disease and genocide. It was the way of living during centuries, where each generation had a taste of war. Where millions died because the dreams of megalomaniacs like Napoleon. Where millions more died in the dangerous and obscure manufacturing plants of the Industrial revolution.
 
Perhaps it is time to accept history like it is. And the Potato famine, was a genocide.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 10-May-2009 at 16:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 19:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am absolutely convinced the Irish potato genocide was a real genocide, without quotes.
You would seem to know nothing about it then.
Quote
That was simply the way Europeans resolved conflicts in those dark times, before the declaration of human rights of the U.N.
Before Nuremberg and the trials of criminals of war, genocide was something "normal" in the minds of politicians.
 
This horrible crime commited by the English against the Irish people should not forgotton, nor denied, but just accepted as an example of the brutality of superpowers. The English commited several other crimes against other peoples, including Europeans. For instance, they started the concentration camps against the Boers in South Africa. And I am not going to mention crimes against non european peoples, which can fill libraries.
Concentration camps were started (at least in the modern era) by the Spanish in Cuba in the 1890s. Britain copied the idea from them. There's just been a whole thread (in fact it split into two) on the subject that you might care to read.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 15:19
The "conviction" that a famine was "genocide" (the most overworked and objectionable word on AE) is utter nonsense.
 
AND the statement that a policy of official extermination was "simply the way Europeans resolved conflicts in those dark times" is absolute, utter nonsense.
 
The comments of an obviously and continuously Anglophobe forumer should not go unchallenged.  Sorry, pinguin; you are all wet (penguins are sea birds after all).
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 15:45

Perhaps it is the Black Legend of England that influenced me. You know, that that say, England is the source of all evil, because its protestantism.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 16:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Perhaps it is time to accept history like it is. And the Potato famine, was a genocide.


Perhaps it is time for you to read some history. What a load of sensationalist nonsense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 17:02
I always heared that was a genocide, I must confess, something as real as the holocaust. Perhaps that conviction was the result of communist brainwashing (60s), or catholic bigotry. I will take a look at the sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 17:07
Opinions of some Irish people. I bet the following is absolutelly my imagination:
 

"Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy. We must not forget such a dreadful event."


Tony Blair, British Prime Minister
June 1997

From the Greek word for tribe (or race), genos, and the Latin term -cide, the word genocide refers to the extermination of the peoples of a nation (or religious group) carried out by an organization, usually a government. Such is the case when discussing the British treatment of Ireland during the potato blight; treatment which was based in the history of Ireland. William Makepiece Thackcray wrote:


"...It is a frightful document against ourselves...one of the most melancholy stories in the whole world of insolence, rapine, brutal, endless slaughter and persecution on the part of the English master...There is no crime ever invented by eastern or western barbarians, no torture or Roman persecution or Spanish Inquisition, no tyranny of Nero or Alva but can be matched in the history of England in Ireland." (Metress, 2)

A famine did not truly exist. There was no food shortage in Ireland evidenced by the fact that the British landowners continued to have a varied diet and food stuffs were exported. This was not the first failure of the potato crop in the history of Ireland. The starvation (and genocide) occurred as the British carried on their historical exploitation of the Irish people, failed to take appropriate action in the face of the failure of the potato crop, and maintained their racist attitude toward the Irish.


The Penal Laws, first passed in 1695. were strictly enforced. These laws made it illegal for Catholics (Irish) to own land, and required the transfer of property from Catholics to Protestants; to have access to an education, and eliminated Gaelic as a language while preventing the development of an educated class; to enter professions, forcing the Irish to remain as sharecropping farmers; or to practice their religion. In addition, Catholics (Irish) could not vote, hold an office, purchase land, join the army, or engage in commerce. Simply put, the British turned the Irish into nothing better than slaves, subsisting on their small rented farms.


The exportation of wheat, oats, barley, and rye did nothing to help the financial status of the poor farmer. The produce was used to pay taxes and rents to the English landlords, who then sold the farm products for great profit. These profits did nothing for the economy of Ireland, but did help the English landlords to prosper. The Irish farmer was forced to remain in poverty, and reliant on one crop, potato, for his subsistence.


The potato became the dominant crop for the poor of Ireland as it was able to provide the greatest amount of food for the least acreage. Farming required a large family to tend the crops and the population grew as a result of need. Poverty forced the Irish to rely upon the potato and the potato kept the Irish impoverished.


As the economic situation worsened, landlords who had the legal power to do so, evicted their Irish tenant farmers, filling the workhouses with poor, underfed, and diseased human beings who were destined to die.


A caption under a picture shown in The Pictorial Times, October 10, 1846, best describes the circumstances of the great starvation, and the nature of the genocide:


"Around them is plenty; rickyards, in full contempt, stand under their snug thatch, calculating the chances of advancing prices; or, the thrashed grain safely stored awaits only the opportunity of conveyance to be taken far away to feed strangers...But a strong arm interposes to hold the maddened infuriates away. Property laws supersede those of Nature. Grain is of more value than blood. And if they attempt to take of the fatness of the land that belongs to their lords, death by musketry, is a cheap government measure to provide for the wants of a starving and incensed people."(Food Riots, 2)


It is time for the world to stop referring to this disastrous period in Irish history as the Great Famine, and to fully realize, and to acknowledge, the magnitude of the crime that systematically destroyed Irish nationalism, the Irish economy, the Irish culture, and the Irish people.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 18:09
Jesus Christ penguin. That is nonsense. Have you read any books about the Irish Famine? Read any books about Irish History? Have you read anything other than some deplorable internet website? Calling the irish Famine a genocide, when you clearly don't have the first clue about anything to do with it, is simply demeaning the word genocide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 18:55
More opinions on the Irish famine:
 

Irish Famine Education and the Holocaust "Straw Man"

James Mullin
July 08, 2008
When I first contacted Dr. Paul Winkler, Executive Director of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, and asked him to consider adding the study of the Great Irish Famine to the state curriculum, he asked me if I was claiming Genocide. I said I wanted the teachers and students to make up their own minds. He agreed with that approach.

On Feb. 11th, 1996, a full seven months before New Jersey became the first state to approve a curriculum on the Irish Famine, the Sunday Telegraph of London published an article, "US Schools Say Irish Famine was Genocide".

As expected, the Telegraph article was filled with misrepresentation, willful errors, and sentences like: "Hard-line Irish-American Nationalists have been increasingly vocal in their demands that the Famine be recognized as a Genocide".

Still, it was surprising to read that, "the issue has divided the Irish-American community, with some moderate groups concerned that comparing the famine with the Nazi-inspired Holocaust will cause offense to Jews." I had not made, nor had I heard of any such comparisons; in addition, I had an excellent working relationship with the Commission, some of whose members were death camp survivors and former hidden children.

The Holocaust comparison theme appeared again in an October 16th, Sunday Times article, "American Pupils Told Irish Famine was Act of British Genocide". It said that, "British diplomats in America are dismayed at the portrayal of the Irish famine as a genocide comparable to the mass extermination of six million Jews by the Nazis." Who was responsible for this "portrayal"?

Since I subscribed to the Irish People, Irish Voice, Irish Echo, (New York) Irish Edition, (Philadelphia) and the Irish Democrat, (London) and had not read or heard of anyone making any such comparisons, I concluded that analogy was a propaganda device called the "straw man". Rather than answer to credible evidence of genocidal acts during the mass starvation, the British would argue that the "Famine" was not a genocide because it was not Holocaust.

In October, 1996, New York Governor George Pataki signed an education law mandating instruction on the mass starvation in Ireland. He was attacked in a Sunday Times of London editorial entitled, "An Irish Hell, but not a Holocaust".

Here was the propaganda masterstroke full blown. The Times editorial said, "It is true the British government does not come out particularly well from the tale…but to compare, as Mr. Pataki has done, its policy with that of Hitler toward the Jews is as unhistorical as it is offensive. (Not least to the Jews, the tragedy of whose Holocaust is necessarily lessened by comparison with an Irish catastrophe that was neither premeditated nor man-made.) To mistake these human errors and shortcomings for a Nazi-style policy of deliberate racial extermination is absurd." So absurd that the "straw man" can be easily knocked over.

Governor Pataki had not mentioned the Holocaust in his speech on signing the bill into law, nor had his subsequent press release. The comparison was based on the simple fact that the newly signed Act added the words, "the mass starvation in Ireland from 1845 to 1850", to state education law which mandated instruction on "human rights issues, genocide, slavery and the Holocaust."

British Ambassador John Kerr then carried the misrepresentation to the highest diplomatic levels, by attacking Governor Pataki in a letter he released to the press. It said: "It seems to me rather insulting to the many millions who suffered and died in concentration camps across Europe to imply that their man-made fate was in any way analogous to the natural disaster in Ireland a century before. The Famine, unlike the Holocaust, was not deliberate, not premeditated, not man-made, not genocide."

On March 10th, 1997, the Washington Times Magazine, Insight, carried a full-page editorial, "You say Potato, They say Holocaust", illustrated with a photograph of a potato wrapped in barbed wire. It attacked Governor Pataki and the whole idea of Irish famine education: "The Holocaust was Hitler´s inhuman policy to eradicate Jews in Germany and from his Thousand-Year Reich. To equate the potato famine with that barbarism makes Pataki a contender for the title of "The Greatest Liar in America." The British-fabricated analogy was proving itself stronger than the truth because it made better copy.

On Aug. 26th, 1997, the Boston Globe opposed Irish Famine education in a staff-written editorial entitled, "Unnecessary Curriculum Bill". It said, "As the Tolman bill is now worded, teachers might be encouraged to treat the Irish famine on the same level of moral depravity as the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust. That would be a misreading of the historical record. While the British approach to the mass starvation was often brutal, arrogant and unfeeling. No state-run death camps disfigured the Irish countryside." Did tens of thousands of homeless, starving people, their ruined hovels and mass graves "disfigure the countryside"?

The argument that classroom discussion of the mass starvation in Ireland should be discouraged because British criminality did not match the barbarity of the Nazis during the Holocaust, is a pervasive and virulent virus imbedded in every dose of propaganda against Famine education. The perpetrators hope to convince everyone that because the Famine was not the Holocaust, it could not have been genocide.

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Instead of the British being forced to explain massive commodity exports and evictions during mass starvation, Irish Famine education activists were left to defend a "Famine is Holocaust" argument they never made.

On September 17th, 1997 the Washington Post published "Ireland´s Famine Wasn´t Genocide" It was written by Timothy W. Guinnane, associate professor of economics at Yale University, and author of The Vanishing Irish: Households, Migration, and the Rural Economy in Post-Famine Ireland. It said, in part:

"Several states have mandated that the Great Irish Famine of 1845-1850 be taught in their high schools as an example of genocide, sometimes in courses originally intended for the study of the Holocaust… The reinterpretation of the famine as genocide has not been well received by scholars who study the Irish famine. Those who view the famine as genocide claim either that the government engineered the crisis or that its reaction to the blight promoted as many deaths as possible. …But does the government´s inadequate response to the famine constitute genocide? The contrast with the Holocaust is instructive. The Nazis devoted considerable resources to finding and murdering Jews. The regime´s stated intention was the elimination of the Jewish people. Nothing like this can be claimed against the British government during the Irish famine. The British government´s indifference to the famine helped cause thousands of needless deaths, but it was indifference nonetheless, and not an active effort at systematic murder… To call the famine genocide cheapens the memories of both the famine´s victims and the victims of real genocides."

While the Holocaust is the best documented, most systematic, ruthless and brutal genocide of the 20th century, it is not the definition of genocide. Since the United States and Britain are parties to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the definition that applies is contained in Article II: ´In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its phyisica1 destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.´

Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law at the University of Illinois, has experience arguing matters of genocide before the International Court of Justice in The Hague. He wrote to the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education on May 2, 1996, saying, in part:

"Clearly, during the years 1845 to 1850, the British government pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland with intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, and racial group commonly known as the Irish People, as such. In addition, this British policy of mass starvation in Ireland clearly caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the Irish People within the meaning of Genocide Convention Article II (b). Furthermore, this British policy of mass starvation in Ireland deliberately inflicted on the Irish People conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in substantial part within the meaning of Article 11(c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention. Therefore, during the years 1845 to 1850 the British government knowingly pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland that constituted acts of genocide against the Irish People."

In December, 1848 (one hundred years before the 1948 Genocide Convention was signed) Cholera began to spread through many of the overcrowded workhouses, pauper hospitals, and crammed jails in Ireland. On April 26th, 1849, the Earl of Clarendon, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, wrote to Prime Minister Russell: "...it is enough to drive one mad, day after day, to read the appeals that are made and meet them all with a negative...At Westport, and other places in Mayo, they have not a shilling to make preparations for the cholera, but no assistance can be given, and there is no credit for anything, as all our contractors are ruined. Surely this is a state of things to justify you asking the House of Commons for an advance, for I don't think there is another legislature in Europe that would disregard such suffering as now exists in the west of Ireland, or coldly persist in a policy of extermination." No advance was granted.

Visit the Irish Famine Curriculum: http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish_famine.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 19:30
Quoting internet articles doesn't make you right. I haven't seen you formulate even the bare representation of an argument of your own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 19:45

England (the head of the empire) do or do not have the resources to help Irish people?

Answer: yes.
 
England do or do not have the will to help Irish people.
 
Answer: no
 
England could care the less for Irish people.
 
Answer: it seems it didn't care.
 
England caused the starvation?
 
Answer: not directly.
 
England helped?
 
Answer: it didn't make its best effort (English humor)
 
So, is England guilty? By omision, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 19:56
I'm sorry penguin, but I'm afraid I've come round to the idea that you are an absolute f**king moron. I don't think you really think about things at all. Go work for a tabloid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 19:59
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

I'm sorry penguin, but I'm afraid I've come round to the idea that you are an absolute f**king moron. I don't think you really think about things at all. Go work for a tabloid.
 
Are you Irish? If so, I bet you are protestant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 20:52
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

I'm sorry penguin, but I'm afraid I've come round to the idea that you are an absolute f**king moron. I don't think you really think about things at all. Go work for a tabloid.
 
Are you Irish? If so, I bet you are protestant.


Catholic actually. But your attitude isn't surprising.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 21:07

On the other hand, yours attitude it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 21:47
TWAT.
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