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Forum LockedDid the Mongols develop a navy?

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Hellios View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 03:50
 
Looking at this map made me wonder if the Mongols had a navy, or if they did, how weak it must've been; look & you'll see they backed out of many places where a good navy would've been needed to conquer; they would've been defeated in trying to conquer semi 'island countries' like Greece, etc, where an army would have to work in conjunction with a navy. 


Edited by Hellios - 29-Dec-2006 at 04:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 04:28
Firstly, I believe there was a Mongol army under Kublai Khan. It was used in both the drive South into the Song empire and was lead primarily by a man called Jurzhen. It was also used in the quest for Indonesia though I know very little about this area of history. He apparently sent a fleet down to conquer some of the islands but with little success.
Another invasion sent forth by Kublai Khan was in 1281 when he sent a fleet towards Japan. The Mongol must have had a decent - though not elite - Navy because the Japanese were unable to match them. This invasion, and the burning of some Mongol ships by Samurai on small raiding boats is depicted below:


I can't imagine the Mongol navy as ever being the naval superpower as their army was on land.



Edited by Knights - 29-Dec-2006 at 04:29

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 05:06
Not exactly necessary to govern their empire. But they did use it against Japan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 05:15
Thanks Knights. Smile
 
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

Another invasion sent forth by Kublai Khan was in 1281 when he sent a fleet towards Japan. The Mongol must have had a decent - though not elite - Navy because the Japanese were unable to match them. This invasion, and the burning of some Mongol ships by Samurai on small raiding boats is depicted below:
 
The Mongol invasions of Japan.
 
"Despite their ultimate failure, the attempts are of historical importance, setting a limit on Mongol expansion, & ranking as nation-defining events in Japanese history."
 
"Heavy casualties, lack of supplies, & mutiny brewing among the Korean & Chinese components of the Mongol army & navy forced the 1st invasion attempt to come to a swift end."
 
"During the 2nd invasion attempt, the combined Korean/Chinese Mongol fleet landed at separate positions, and in a number of individual battles, the Mongol forces were driven back to their ships."
 
"It's believed the destruction of the Mongol fleet was due to flat-bottomed Chinese river boats comprising much of the invasion force, because such ships were not designed to deal with the high seas." 


Edited by Hellios - 29-Dec-2006 at 05:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 05:19
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

Thanks Knights. Smile

The Mongol invasions of Japan.
 
"Despite their ultimate failure, the attempts are of historical importance, setting a limit on Mongol expansion, & ranking as nation-defining events in Japanese history."
 
"Heavy casualties, lack of supplies, & mutiny brewing among the Korean & Chinese components of the Mongol army & navy forced the 1st invasion attempt to come to a swift end."
 
"During the 2nd invasion attempt, the combined Korean/Chinese Mongol fleet landed at separate positions, and in a number of individual battles, the Mongol forces were driven back to their ships."
 
"It's believed the destruction of the Mongol fleet was due to flat-bottomed Chinese river boats comprising much of the invasion force, because such ships were not designed to deal with the high seas." 


Wink A great summary of the overall 'success' (or lack of) of the Mongol Navy, highliting the Japanese Invasions. I guess it wasn't just their ships, but the sailors too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 13:43
They actually did, but it was not the Mongols overall, but only the Yuan dynasty, Kublai's dynasty developing a navy.
 
Not only they used the navy against Japan in two expeditions ending in disaster due to storms, they also used it in their expedition to Java, and their small&unsuccessful fight against the Javanese 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 13:49
Not to long ago there was a show on either the history channel, discovery or something like that analyzing the two Mongol invasions of Japan. One of the things that stuck in my mind was the orders by Khublai Khan to create a navy that would be ready for invasion in quick haste. Due to time constraints they allowed improper ship building technics. The Mongol fleet could not withstand the forces of the sea when it turned rough.

I think it was the second invasion where the Mongol's and her allies actually did have a beachhead on one of the Japanese Islands. They used incendiary bombs on that battle too. At nightfall instead of pressing the fight or protecting the beach, they went back to their ships and got tossed by the storm.
    

Edited by Seko - 29-Dec-2006 at 13:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 15:10
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Not to long ago there was a show on either the history channel, discovery or something like that analyzing the two Mongol invasions of Japan. One of the things that stuck in my mind was the orders by Khublai Khan to create a navy that would be ready for invasion in quick haste. Due to time constraints they allowed improper ship building technics. The Mongol fleet could not withstand the forces of the sea when it turned rough.
 
Also, Chinese shipbuilding was good for rivers but not so good for open seas.
 
 
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

I think it was the second invasion where the Mongol's and her allies actually did have a beachhead on one of the Japanese Islands. They used incendiary bombs on that battle too. At nightfall instead of pressing the fight or protecting the beach, they went back to their ships and got tossed by the storm. 
 
I read & thought they were driven back to their ships by the Samurai.  I've never heard of an army (that has already established multiple beachheads) being defeated by a storm.


Edited by Hellios - 29-Dec-2006 at 15:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 15:26
Originally posted by Kapikulu Kapikulu wrote:

they also used it in their expedition to Java, and their small&unsuccessful fight against the Javanese 
 
Interesting, thanks.  I'll read up on the Mongol-Javanese battle(s) tonight.
 
Cheers. 


Edited by Hellios - 29-Dec-2006 at 15:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 15:26
Seems I had my invasions backwards.

During the first Mongol invasion, once the Mongols had landed and driven back the Japanese at Dazifu, they burned Japanese dwellings. They did in fact return to their ships at overnight. That's when night a fierce storm damaged the fleet. Over 13,000 died. (Osprey's Genghis Khan & the Mongol Conquests, 2003)

On the second invasion the Mongol forces attacked at Hakata bay and the island of Shiga. For about a week they launched attacks. The Japanese responded with night raids against the Mongol ships. Often in sneak attacks and in hand to hand fighting. The Japanese stood ground against the invaders at Iki island as well. Within days a typhoon erupted. The famous Kamikazae. Forced by the Japanese to stay in their ships and unable to drop anchor in the harbour, coupled with the storm, the Mongol fleet was demolished. 30% of the Korean soldiers and 60-90% of the Mongol and Chinese.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 15:36
So, somehow both invasions, with beachheads already established, were foiled by storms? Smile
 
Some additional sources:


Edited by Hellios - 29-Dec-2006 at 15:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 15:42
Yes. The storms were the hammer to the anvil. Each brought closure to the invasions. Note too that on both occasions the Mongols retreated to their ships and on the other were not successful in dislodging the Japanese at Hakata bay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 19:01
As noted by Hellios, the Mongol navy actually relied heavily on Chinese naval technologies. And as rightly pointed out by Hellios, in their attempt to invade Japan, they relied on a rather hastily-assembled fleet that comprised ships more suitable for rivers than for open seas. However, that does not mean that Chinese naval technologies back then were only good for rivers. During the Southern Song Dynasty (one of the weakest Chinese dynasties militarily speaking), the Chinese navy was arguably the most powerful one on earth at that time, roaming both the East and South China Seas unchallenged. So why did the Mongols rely on the WRONG naval technologies for their invasion of Japan? I have a feeling that it's because they were doing it in too much of a haste, as I suggested earlier. Had they given it more planning and more time and had they chosen the right naval technologies, they could have succeeded in invading the Japanese archipelago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 00:51
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

Mongol-Javanese battle(s)


They are very interesting aren't they, all the trickery and deception as a part of the intricate and complicated invasion of Java. The tale of unsteady/fake alliances and deception is most intriguing - my friend 'Praetor' enlightened me about the Mongol Javanese confrontations and I'm hoping he'll return to participate in this thread

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