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Forum LockedDid ancient Iranians have blue eyes and red hairs?

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did ancient Iranians have blue eyes and red hairs?
    Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:09
It is really possible that ancient Scythians had not actually bright red hair, the Persian word "color" is "rang", so the Middle Persian word "Hna-rangi" meant "Color of Henna", this word was changed to "Narangi" and then arabicized as modern Persian "Narenji", the English word "Orange" comes from this word, and you can read about Henna:
 
 
henna Look up henna at Dictionary.com
1600, from Ar. hinna, name for the small thorny tree (Egyptian Privet, Lawsonia inermis) whose leaves are used to make the reddish dye, said to be of Persian origin.

Dying hair with henna (hanabandan) is a very ancient Iranian tradition.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:17
Originally posted by Suren

Yes, we did have, but now the majority have dark hair and dark eyes. Half of my cousins have light hair and light eyes, but not me. One of my cousin had beautiful blue eyes and blond hair when he was a kid now his hair is brown and his eyes are darker; I wonder why?  Smile


Light hair or light eyes tend to be "recessive" traits. Dark hair and eyes tend to be "dominant" traits.

For example, since many of your cousins have light eyes, there is a good chance (50%) that you could be carrying the gene (or allele) for blue eyes (since you presumably have the same grandparents or great grand-parents as your cousins). However because you also carry the dominant gene for dark eyes (let's call this the "Br" allele), the blue-eyed trait ("Bl" allele) does not show up physically in your phenotype (even though your genotype may carry it). Your genotype would be "BrBl" and you are dark-eyed as a result because "Br" (dark eyes) is the dominant trait. Only if the two recessive alleles had come together as "BlBl" (one each from your father and mother), would you have had blue eyes.

However, if you were to marry a dark-eyed woman, who (presumably like yourself) also carried a recessive allele for blue eyes, there is a 25 % chance that your offspring will have blue eyes, even though both parents are dark-eyed.

This happened in the case of one of my cousins who has medium-brown eyes. However, he inherited an allele for grey-eyes from my grey-eyed grandfather. My cousin's spouse, also had medium-hazel brown eyes and has a blue-eyed ancestor. It turns out, that 3 out of 4 of my cousin's children were born with blue eyes, even though both parents were brown-eyed. The children matched their parents in just about every other aspect of physical appearance, except for eye-colour. This is because both parents carried a recessive allele (genotype) for light-coloured eyes.

Hence, recessive traits have a resilience of their own.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:36
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think the important question is that from what region the original Iranian-speaking people migrated to the Iranian plateau,


Most likely from the Afghanistan-Pakistan Hindu Kush mountain range. The ancient Greeks knew this range as "Caucasus Indicus".


 it could be from the southern Europe and Greece throuh Anatolia, or the eastern Europe throuh the Caucasus,


Genetic evidence has rendered the european explanation highly improbable.
Incidentally, do you know anything about the genetics of Europeans?
Also, do you know the difference between brachycephalic and dolichocephalic?


 or from the east, somewhere in Kazakhstan and Central Asia or northern China where Tocharians and Yueh-chih lived, or maybe even from the south throuh the Persian gulf!


From the "east". Afghanistan/Pakistan border region appears to be the best candidate so far. Genetics and anthropometry seem to confirm this.
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:39
It is good to read about the origins of red hair in a website about it:
 
 
 
The Origins of Red Hair
 
Red hair is often assumed to have emerged with the Celts, but the gene for redheadedness existed long before the Celts came into being, at the start of the first millennium BC around the headwaters of the Rhine, the Rhone and the Danube. One theory is that red hair arrived in Europe with the Iranic-speaking steppe tribes who lived the areas north of and around the Black Sea from 4,000 years ago to the 6th century. Today, there is a surprising number of redheads in Afghanistan, Iran and the Urals, as well as in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is possible that this "Iranic" ginger trait was transferred to other populations, including the Celts, whose original hair color was various shades of brown and black in general.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 20:46
Interesting one Cyrus.

So what can be source of the red hair in Azerbaijan and Georgia?

Far as i know, most of the red hair people are to be found in Ukraine.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 21:45
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev



Far as i know, most of the red hair people are to be found in Ukraine.
 
I wonder what is the source of this information, This is the first time I hear this.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 22:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
 
The Origins of Red Hair
 
Red hair is often assumed to have emerged with the Celts, but the gene for redheadedness existed long before the Celts came into being, at the start of the first millennium BC around the headwaters of the Rhine, the Rhone and the Danube. One theory is that red hair arrived in Europe with the Iranic-speaking steppe tribes who lived the areas north of and around the Black Sea from 4,000 years ago to the 6th century. Today, there is a surprising number of redheads in Afghanistan, Iran and the Urals, as well as in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is possible that this "Iranic" ginger trait was transferred to other populations, including the Celts, whose original hair color was various shades of brown and black in general.


That's a very interesting theory, Cyrus. I wonder if you have any statistical data on what percentage of people in these regions have red hair, it would be interesting to compare those statistics with those of other areas.

According the the Guiness Book of World Records, the highest percentage of redheads in any population is that of Scotland, where one in every eight people has red hair.

We know now through genetic testing the the British people are largely related to those living in norther Iberia (Spain), and that their ancestors migrated from there to Britain as the last ice age ended. Migration of Iranic peoples to Britain may be one theory - we do know that the Romans settled some Sarmatian mercenaries in the area. Or perhaps a separate gene responsible for red hair developed independently among the people who migrated to Britain from Spain. As I am not a geneticist, I cannot say for sure.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 23:09

It is interesting to read it: http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ -> Red-haired Gutians

As you read ancient Babylonian tablets talk about the sale of slaves of the blonde race of the Guti from the north of Khuzestan, the name of the first known Guti king is Sharlak, that is similar to Sherlock (OE Schirloc) which means "blond haired"!


Mohammad-Ali Ramin, Presidential Advisor
He was born in Gotvand, a village between Dezful and Shushtar, in the north of Khuzestan. The most famous ancient building in Gotvand is Rostam Gotvand Castle: http://www.itto.org/tourismattractions/?sight=2075

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 03:14
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It is interesting to read it: http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ -> Red-haired Gutians

As you read ancient Babylonian tablets talk about the sale of slaves of the blonde race of the Guti from the north of Khuzestan, the name of the first known Guti king is Sharlak, that is similar to Sherlock (OE Schirloc) which means "blond haired"!


Mohammad-Ali Ramin, Presidential Advisor
He was born in Gotvand, a village between Dezful and Shushtar, in the north of Khuzestan. The most famous ancient building in Gotvand is Rostam Gotvand Castle: http://www.itto.org/tourismattractions/?sight=2075



There is an interesting quote from the website you cite above:
http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians
"According to linguistics and internal evidence of the Avesta, the Irano-Aryan language family originated high in the splendid Hind Kush or "Indian Kushana" mountains of Afghanistan. Historical data indicates that one of these Proto-Iranic-speaking tribes was denominated 'Gut' or 'Got'. This ancient Iranic root denominated "warrior", as the erudite Waddell notes, "the affixed title of Gut or "Goth" or 'Warrior'" (Waddell 1929, p.114)"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 09:02
Before we even go there though; despite sharing a somewhat similar name these Gut/Goth people have nothing to do with the Germanic tribe of the Goths, who did not emerge until millenniums later. And before you say it's redundant to point this out, take a look at some of the farfetched etymologically based theories forwarded on AE and you will understand.

The Guti in question here are an Iranian mountain people of ancient Mesopotamia who lived primarily around Hamadan in the Zagros Range. They are known for having invaded Babylon and overthrown the Akkadian empire. The Guti then ruled parts of the area for about a century.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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