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Jams View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2008 at 19:14
Originally posted by zukline zukline wrote:

It is absolutely impossible for european people to reach inner asia on those days.
 
Maybe, but it is not impossible for a similar type to have lived in the area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TugZy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 09:34
I am a mongolian living in Japan. The truth is , japans in Northern Japan are not original from there. Original inhabitants of Hokkaido and North Honshyu are Ainus from Tungusic origin who lost significant population after japanese *genocide* on them during Edo Period. The modern japan is a nation of mixed ethnic groups from China, Korea, and also Polynesians and very few ainus i think. You will never see blonde japanese in Japan.  But i bother that their language can be better compared to altaic languages than chinese.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snafu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 19:39
Yeah, most of the descriptions I've seen of Genghis Khan describe him as having reddish-brown hair and grey or light brown eyes. I've never seen him described as blonde and blue-eyed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 07:17

The blond, blue-eyed palefaces are a mutation of homo apiens that came out of A ice-time refugia less than 10.000 years ago.

During this refugia only a very small number of people had survived - living in isolation frm other people - on a limited area, for a VERY long time - to develop he characteristics of the arctic blondes. Since the end ofice-time they populated the northern hemisprere of Eurasia - in two major branches; one eastern and one western.

The eastern original are still present in some of the Uralc populations - such as Finns and Estonians, who are still domnantly blonde. The western branch turned into Goths and Celts, wereof some Scadinavian communities are still dominantly blonde. But only in the far north do we still find these "native blonds".

While the ancient caucasians populated and cultivated the northern parts of Eurasia they also connected to the old cultures uth of the Alps and Caucasian mountains. Thus we still find their traces in the Spanish, Italian, Greek, Anatolian, Persian a Indian populations- to various degrees.

Meanwhile the climate improved radically - and tropical or mixed (sub-tropic) populations started to migrate into the sub-arctic areas - north of the mountain-ranges from the Pyrenees to the Himalaya. Connection made these migrations started to reach further a further north - making more and more people in Uraine, Russia and northern Europe dark haired and brown-eyed.

Thus we find the arctical haplogroup R1 in various forms from Marocco to China, while the tropical E3 now have spread to Carelia as well as Norway, leading to a transformation of the northern populations back to their tropical origin - with pigmented skin, dark hair and brown eyes...






Edited by Boreasi - 16-Dec-2008 at 07:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zukline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 09:05
Red hair seems to be unrealistic, although there are a lot of claims that kirgizs and others had such a feature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 09:51
Originally posted by zukline zukline wrote:

According to many contemporaty historians including Rashid-Ad-Din and Abu Ghazi and to some degree Kazakh legends Ghenghis Khaan had Blonde or Yellowish Hair and Blue/Green Eyes, although he seems to have had a Mongoloid skull system.

Modern Kazakhs even say that when pure Kazakh child is born with blue eyes they see it as a sign of being "Tore" Clan child which means descendent of Genghisid line.  
 
Some historians including a famous Kazakh historian claim Ghenghis Khaan had even red beards like Tamerlane. Many Mongol chieftains and aristocrats had Yellow hair including Jebe, Zelme and many more. Genghis Khaans descendants also had yellow hair and blueish green eyes until it was lost on Khubilai.
 
The first Jungar chieftan Esen Taishi who united All Mongols and declared himself Khaan is depicted in his painting completely blue eyed?
 
And there are a lot of Mongols in modern Mongolian Western and Northern regions with yellowish blonde hair or sandy hair.
 
Jetisu region or Easter Kazakhstan also have very high occurence of yellow hair and green eye occurrences.
 
But why and how they became like that in very short time?
 
To read about the possible cause read here: http://www.geocities.com/eyecolourchange
 
 
This is all BS, who is Abu Ghazi, there is nobody with such a name. Besides "Novgorod chronicle" of XIII century clearly states the physical features of Mongols (they call Tatar), which is purely asiatic with black eyes and dark hair, stocky though built features.  
Also as one of you said here, Rashid-ad-Din never saw Genghis khan himself.
Esen taishi of Oirats cannot have had blue eye, this is again BS, if you are refering to a painting tell me which painting it was.
 
About Kazakh sayings and legends...
This is result of Russian "teasing" of kazakh people, in kazakhstani school books you will find a lot of nonsense like, pure kazakhs were "blue-eyed blondes" (even red-hairs). Plus they all have read Kalashnikov's grossly biased book "Cruel Century", which depicts Ghenghis Khaan no different than Claudia Schaeffer's father to claim he was not Mongol.
 
If pure Mongols or Kazakhs were a blue-eyed blondes (red-hairs), then who are present day Mongols and Kazakhs? Chinese maybe?
 
Close look at green-eyed or light haired people in Central Asia reveal that either they lived in close contact to Russians (like living in northern frontier) or have known Russian ancestor.
 
How could russian "scientists" determine in 1960's, the colour of someone's eye who lived in 9th or 10th century? 
 
Finally only reliable thing about Genghis Khan eye is that, fire used to burn in his eyes, so it is just brown eye which lights red in semi-darkness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 11:16

The clines of phenotypes (traits - like hair colour) do not behave the way we often think they do - we like to think they stick to some range of cultural groups and don't wander about. They may be associated with one or another cultural group, but that is just a very high frequency of the phenotype - and generally, there is no clear "border" where the phenotype stops cold, but a gradually diminishing frequency across a vast area. 

Not only that, but the same mutation that originally produced the phenotype can occur again many times. It can even occur in completely unrelated species (say, cats and dogs), independantly. This actually happens quite a bit (for instance, albinoism).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 18:24
Originally posted by mpower mpower wrote:

 
This is all BS, who is Abu Ghazi, there is nobody with such a name. Besides "Novgorod chronicle" of XIII century clearly states the physical features of Mongols (they call Tatar), which is purely asiatic with black eyes and dark hair, stocky though built features.  
Also as one of you said here, Rashid-ad-Din never saw Genghis khan himself.
Esen taishi of Oirats cannot have had blue eye, this is again BS, if you are refering to a painting tell me which painting it was.
 
BS is what you are saying, Genghiz khan is depicted as a person with light eyes and red hair by Rashid ad Din, which is perhaps the most complete source on early Mongol history. Perhaps he didn't see Genghiz himself but he knew much more about the subject than anyone else.
 
Originally posted by mpower mpower wrote:

About Kazakh sayings and legends...
This is result of Russian "teasing" of kazakh people, in kazakhstani school books you will find a lot of nonsense like, pure kazakhs were "blue-eyed blondes" (even red-hairs). Plus they all have read Kalashnikov's grossly biased book "Cruel Century", which depicts Ghenghis Khaan no different than Claudia Schaeffer's father to claim he was not Mongol.
 
Russian "teasing" (what you actually mean by this is very unclear) doesn't substitute historical fact about Genghis khan, neither a historical fiction book influenced school education in Kazakhstan to that extent.
 
Originally posted by mpower mpower wrote:

If pure Mongols or Kazakhs were a blue-eyed blondes (red-hairs), then who are present day Mongols and Kazakhs? Chinese maybe?
 
You're the first person in this thread to claim that ""pure Mongols or Kazakhs were a blue-eyed blondes (red-hairs)" the topic which we are discussing here is that some Mongoloids especially so-called "steppan people" have some Europeoid features that it
 
Originally posted by mpower mpower wrote:

Close look at green-eyed or light haired people in Central Asia reveal that either they lived in close contact to Russians (like living in northern frontier) or have known Russian ancestor.
 
LOL  That's really funny. Does it mean that people who didn't know "Russian ancestor" can't have green eyes. And why blue and green eyes can be found in the south of so-called Central Asian region? Nonsense.
 
Originally posted by mpower mpower wrote:

How could russian "scientists" determine in 1960's, the colour of someone's eye who lived in 9th or 10th century? 
 
What do Russian scientists have to do with Rashid ad Din? Or may be according to your sources he was also a part of Russian blue eyes conspiracy?
 
Originally posted by mpower mpower wrote:

Finally only reliable thing about Genghis Khan eye is that, fire used to burn in his eyes, so it is just brown eye which lights red in semi-darkness.
This "thing" is "reliable" for you only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 14:18
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:


The blond, blue-eyed palefaces are a mutation of homo apiens that came out of A ice-time refugia less than 10.000 years ago.
 
So they say, but childhood blondism exists in non Euro populations too, and some of them have been isolated for far longer than 10.000 years, like Australian Aborigines. So there must be more than one "blondism" gene.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 00:33

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Genghiz khan is depicted as a person with light eyes and red hair by Rashid ad Din, which is perhaps the most complete source on early Mongol history. Perhaps he didn't see Genghiz himself but he knew much more about the subject than anyone else.

That's not entirely accurate. Rashid ad-Din worked exclusively from secondary sources. He borrowed most of his information from Juvaini, who as an official at the Mongol court (and, eventually, the Mongol governor of Baghdad) was better placed to note any peculiarities about Genghis Khan's family (although he didn't meet Genghis either - he worked for Guyuk). Juvaini doesn't mention Genghis or any of his family members being blond.

It is, of course, impossible to verify what Genghis Khan's hair or eye colour was, since there aren't even any contemporary portraits of him to draw from. But I have to say that it would be very easy for a legend like this to spring up from nothing. People like to attribute meaning to anything unusual, which is why redheads or lefties are supposed to have particular personality traits. Light-haired children were sufficiently rare in Asia that they would have been considered somehow special, and what could be more special than being descendants of the great Khan?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 19:00
If you look up the Tarim Basin Mummies that could help explain this, if it is true.

I know when I put together a brochure for the Musuem of Cycladic Art, in Athens, Greece, the main source talked about caucasian tribes or Indo European who lived in that region and over time seem to have mixed with the Mongolian tribes.





who knows this could have been one of his ancestors, speculation.
I know they have been brought up here before.
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